about see-saw-y cue/stroke motion

[evergruven]

in this vid john morra stroking his cue in a way that is kind of see-saw-y here- y'all see it?
I'm sure everybody does this, tho I'm not 100% why- something to do with the cue angle/stroke length, etc.
but it's funny to me, because I only noticed this watching myself play on vid last week
so I guess my question is, is this motion worth considering? something to avoid/unavoidable/both...?

 

[boogieman]

Notice when he strikes the ball how level the hit/follow through is. Sometimes the see saw is just calibration to insure your stroking it right. If I'm playing good and stroking good I have these kind of calibration strokes. If everything is correct the ball can't miss and the CB behaves well.

No idea about the mechanics of it though, something to do with human anatomy and the stroke.

EDIT: I'm not an instructor.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...something to do with human anatomy and the stroke.

Raising the elbow on the backswing.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

in this vid john morra stroking his cue in a way that is kind of see-saw-y here- y'all see it?
I'm sure everybody does this, tho I'm not 100% why- something to do with the cue angle/stroke length, etc.
but it's funny to me, because I only noticed this watching myself play on vid last week
so I guess my question is, is this motion worth considering? something to avoid/unavoidable/both...?

Based on your observations, does he do it some of the time, all of the time, most of the time? How often?

 

[WobblyStroke]

Raising the elbow on the backswing.

pj
chgo

He doesn't. Morra plays with a very steady elbow. It is pretty high up to start and if it stays there, the back end of the cue raises up in the backswing and comes back down on the delivery plane (def related to his address angle in his arm being longside of 90degrees). As OP suspected some degree of this is very common but Morra's delivery is def linear enough. In a more open table stance with hand on table he is one of those guys whose elbow dips in the backswing as he extends his arm...this keeps it more on plane throughout.

Morra's see saw-y motion is very minimal imo. He def aint this guy (who def has a noticeable dip and raising of his elbow in the backswing like PJ suspected Morra had)....

The nature of my wobble in my funtime wobbly stroke is vertical and seesaw-y as you put it and my action does have a bit of a pump stroke mobile elbow. Depending on stance/grip, a very still elbow CAN still produce this effect to some extent tho as we see with Morra.

 

[boogieman]

Raising the elbow on the backswing.

pj
chgo

That makes sense.

The "calibration is figuring out how to drive the cue level through the ball depending on elevation. On the shots where you can't shoot level (rail shots, over a ball, jacked up, jump shots) you have to still insure a good stroke. I would guess the see saws happen more often when standing in a less than ideal position that doesn't allow a "normal" stance or stroke. The see sawing allows you to feel your stroke until it's grooved straight.

 

[evergruven]

Based on your observations, does he do it some of the time, all of the time, most of the time? How often?

based on my (so far, minimal) observations, some players do it some of the time

do you have any opinion on the ss (seesaw) motion, fran?

---

Depending on stance/grip, a very still elbow CAN still produce this effect to some extent tho as we see with Morra.

totally. and now let me attempt to refine my thinking on the subject
the ss motion could appear counterproductive, because any deviation from a level stroke is going to produce sidespin (which could of course also be desirable)
*but* if ss motion is inevitable in some cases due to body position, etc., the question isn't how to singularly limit it, I don't think
but instead establish and solidify good fundamentals, and good cb position (staying off the rail, etc.) whenever possible
to avoid the ss motion in the first place, in case applying sidespin to the cb is unwanted

thanks all for the replies, and for letting me post my pool flights of fancy ^_^

 

[FranCrimi]

based on my (so far, minimal) observations, some players do it some of the time

do you have any opinion on the ss (seesaw) motion, fran?

---



totally. and now let me attempt to refine my thinking on the subject
the ss motion could appear counterproductive, because any deviation from a level stroke is going to produce sidespin (which could of course also be desirable)
*but* if ss motion is inevitable in some cases due to body position, etc., the question isn't how to singularly limit it, I don't think
but instead establish and solidify good fundamentals, and good cb position (staying off the rail, etc.) whenever possible
to avoid the ss motion in the first place, in case applying sidespin to the cb is unwanted

thanks all for the replies, and for letting me post my pool flights of fancy ^_^

According to your observations, do they do it on their final stroke?

 

[WobblyStroke]

based on my (so far, minimal) observations, some players do it some of the time

do you have any opinion on the ss (seesaw) motion, fran?

---



totally. and now let me attempt to refine my thinking on the subject
the ss motion could appear counterproductive, because any deviation from a level stroke is going to produce sidespin (which could of course also be desirable)
*but* if ss motion is inevitable in some cases due to body position, etc., the question isn't how to singularly limit it, I don't think
but instead establish and solidify good fundamentals, and good cb position (staying off the rail, etc.) whenever possible
to avoid the ss motion in the first place, in case applying sidespin to the cb is unwanted

thanks all for the replies, and for letting me post my pool flights of fancy ^_^

This is a vertical move so it does not produce any side spin.
As mentioned, the slight up and down of the butt end of the cue shows up in Morra who has a VERY STABLE ELBOW position. The move is just a function of the way his forearm pivots around his stationary elbow after addressing the ball with his arm angle a bit higher than 90degrees.

A repetitive motion is the key, not necessarily one that moves the cue in the exact same orientation the whole time. It is very common to have some degree of up and down movement as the cue swings. If you have a pendulum stroke, that's how they move. A shorter stroke will stay more level of course, but the longer the stroke, the more pronounced this little move will be as the cue will naturally move higher as it moves farther back. It would literally be impossible to leave your elbow stationary and move the cue along a dead level path beyond a certain point that the wrist action can't buffer out. This is why players like Morra (predominantly those that address the ball with a larger arm angle than 90degrees) will tend to have their elbow drop as they extend their arm backwards...which allows the cue to stay closer to on the same plane throughout the motion.

Honestly, for a move so slight, I wouldn't give it much thought at all. A stationary elbow will cause the cue to go up a bit but the same stationary elbow will have that cue come back down to the exact same address position. So who cares if it moves around in space a bit as it travels around its pivot point? It would actually take much more coordination and effort to get body parts moving (like the dip in the elbow as the arm extends) to accommodate a more linear cue action. What Morra does is plenty level and it repeats. Not much more you can ask of your technique.

 

[evergruven]

According to your observations, do they do it on their final stroke?

sometimes- depends on how long the stroke is, I think.
interestingly, in myself I noticed that I did it *only* on the final stroke

This is a vertical move so it does not produce any side spin.

right..but if we're digging into the ball at an angle, even if vertically, doesn't that increase the likelihood of (some/small) twisting, worth avoiding?
...unless the vertical hit was perfect, but I honestly don't know how often this occurs
and I'm being picky..just want to get it right myself. it seems having a perfectly level cue most times is unrealistic.

Honestly, for a move so slight, I wouldn't give it much thought at all. A stationary elbow will cause the cue to go up a bit but the same stationary elbow will have that cue come back down to the exact same address position. So who cares if it moves around in space a bit as it travels around its pivot point? It would actually take much more coordination and effort to get body parts moving (like the dip in the elbow as the arm extends) to accommodate a more linear cue action. What Morra does is plenty level and it repeats. Not much more you can ask of your technique.

fair. and this was a thought I had whilst posting..I just didn't know for sure. thanks for taking the time

 

[FranCrimi]

sometimes- depends on how long the stroke is, I think.
interestingly, in myself I noticed that I did it *only* on the final stroke

OK. Well, if a pro or high level player did it, I wouldn't be concerned, nor would I try to imitate it. It's most likely the equivalent of a waggle, which is their way of setting up the shot. It's often a relaxation technique in order to feel loose for a particular shot, which is why you see it on some shots but not all. It's done not only with just a vertical move of the arm, but it can also be accompanied by, and often is, by a relaxation of the grip hand during the stroke. On some rare occasions, you may see it in the player's final stroke, but if it's anything other than a very slight movement, it's a dangerous move. My guess is that these players didn't adopt it intentionally. It's something that came naturally to them.

The other time you see it more prominently is in the Filipino loop stroke, which is a continuous figure-8 movement. That can pretty much ruin your game if you weren't raised with that stroke from early on. I wouldn't try it. If I can recall, Mike Immomen experimented with that stroke for awhile when he spent time in the Philippines. I haven't seen him play recently but last time I saw him, he seemed to have developed a variation on that. But he's a pro. He knows what he's doing.

So, bottom line, it's a risky move and should be considered carefully.

 

[WobblyStroke]

OK. Well, if a pro or high level player did it, I wouldn't be concerned, nor would I try to imitate it. It's most likely the equivalent of a waggle, which is their way of setting up the shot. It's often a relaxation technique in order to feel loose for a particular shot, which is why you see it on some shots but not all. It's done not only with just a vertical move of the arm, but it can also be accompanied by, and often is, by a relaxation of the grip hand during the stroke. On some rare occasions, you may see it in the player's final stroke, but if it's anything other than a very slight movement, it's a dangerous move. My guess is that these players didn't adopt it intentionally. It's something that came naturally to them.

The other time you see it more prominently is in the Filipino loop stroke, which is a continuous figure-8 movement. That can pretty much ruin your game if you weren't raised with that stroke from early on. I wouldn't try it. If I can recall, Mike Immomen experimented with that stroke for awhile when he spent time in the Philippines. I haven't seen him play recently but last time I saw him, he seemed to have developed a variation on that. But he's a pro. He knows what he's doing.

So, bottom line, it's a risky move and should be considered carefully.

You're right for the move you are describing, but that is not what was happening in Morra's delivery in the linked video. I've watched a lot of his play both on video and live and there is a very slight movement simply caused by the cue raising in the backswing. His elbow is still.

Also, Mika Immonen always had a pretty big up and down component to his stroke. You can check out his 2001 World Championship win for just how much it moved around and this was a long time before he visited the Phillipines.

Again, you're right that the loopy warmup (reason for my wobble) is a move that should be considered carefully, but that isn't what is in question here. Morra's is a very subtle up and down of the butt end as the cue moves about a stable elbow position. It is super standard and can be ignored.

 

[FranCrimi]

You're right for the move you are describing, but that is not what was happening in Morra's delivery in the linked video. I've watched a lot of his play both on video and live and there is a very slight movement simply caused by the cue raising in the backswing. His elbow is still.

Also, Mika Immonen always had a pretty big up and down component to his stroke. You can check out his 2001 World Championship win for just how much it moved around and this was a long time before he visited the Phillipines.

Again, you're right that the loopy warmup (reason for my wobble) is a move that should be considered carefully, but that isn't what is in question here. Morra's is a very subtle up and down of the butt end as the cue moves about a stable elbow position. It is super standard and can be ignored.

I think although he used Morra as his example, he mentioned other players as well. I wasn't sure where he was going with this and I'm not so sure the OP knew either, so I figured I'd cover all the bases.

 

[FranCrimi]

You're right for the move you are describing, but that is not what was happening in Morra's delivery in the linked video. I've watched a lot of his play both on video and live and there is a very slight movement simply caused by the cue raising in the backswing. His elbow is still.

Also, Mika Immonen always had a pretty big up and down component to his stroke. You can check out his 2001 World Championship win for just how much it moved around and this was a long time before he visited the Phillipines.

Again, you're right that the loopy warmup (reason for my wobble) is a move that should be considered carefully, but that isn't what is in question here. Morra's is a very subtle up and down of the butt end as the cue moves about a stable elbow position. It is super standard and can be ignored.

Oh. Also I forgot to mention, it's interesting that you saw Mika's up and down motion in 2001. I think I missed that he was probably already experimenting with the Filipino stroke before he went there and really studied it. When he came back, his stroke had transformed.

Mika, Nesli O'Hare and I drove to either AC or the the Hopkins Expo together for a tournament back in the mid 90's --- I forget which one exactly, and I watched his matches when I wasn't playing. I didn't notice any up and down motion in his stroke back then, so maybe it started in the late 90's after that.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Ye makes sense that his wavy stroke wasn't there from the start given he started out in snooker.

Mika was my main stroke model when I started out based on what I saw from him in that 2001 run. His flow and brief to nonexistent pause really resonated with me as his warmup strokes were true rehearsal strokes rather than feathering or anything different from the final delivery. I especially took note of and copied how he preset the conditions in his grip and wrist in his PSR before even getting down, making very different final moves prior to spin shots and stun shots. It was eye opening for me then and I think a lot of players can learn a lot watching him.

I have played several techniques over the years but always found myself returning to that Mika style (a kind of blend of Filipino and European styles) as I always found that style gave me the best level of speed control while still feeling like it was on rails straight. He's always been one of my favorite players to watch (and emulate).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here's some visual perspective on the natural up and down motion of a pendulum swing.

With the forearm perpendicular to the cue at CB address (as shown), there's a few inches (~4") of nearly flat hand/tip motion before and after contact with the CB - the back hand moves up and down a maximum of 1/8" within that short span. With the bridge 10" from the tip and the back hand 8" from the butt, the tip moves up and down 1/4 as much as the back hand - so in this example the tip moves up and down a maximum of 1/32" during the 2" before and after contact.

pj
chgo

 

[evergruven]

the pendulum..I thought about this last night, and I think the ss motion I was curious about is more about the pendulum than anything else
every shot is going to be a little different, and so we can adjust our bodies/how we hold the cue to fit the shot..and there is a pendulum motion to match
what now seems to be important is contacting the cb at the point in the pendulum that is desirable, often at the bottom/midpoint of the stroke

I think although he used Morra as his example, he mentioned other players as well. I wasn't sure where he was going with this and I'm not so sure the OP knew either, so I figured I'd cover all the bases.

fran, I could see where my original post could have been confusing for you. thanks for trying to help.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

what now seems to be important is contacting the cb at the point in the pendulum that is desirable, often at the bottom/midpoint of the stroke

Which means getting the back hand to return to the exact same spot in the shot stroke that it occupied at CB address - which is where the fixed elbow comes in.

pj
chgo

 

[evergruven]

Which means getting the back hand to return to the exact same spot in the shot stroke that it occupied at CB address - which is where the fixed elbow comes in.

pj
chgo

I love it, thanks pat- this is the kinda stuff I wanna dig into.

 

[FranCrimi]

the pendulum..I thought about this last night, and I think the ss motion I was curious about is more about the pendulum than anything else
every shot is going to be a little different, and so we can adjust our bodies/how we hold the cue to fit the shot..and there is a pendulum motion to match
what now seems to be important is contacting the cb at the point in the pendulum that is desirable, often at the bottom/midpoint of the stroke



fran, I could see where my original post could have been confusing for you. thanks for trying to help.

Holy cow. You were talking about the pendulum motion? I never would have gotten that in a million years. Glad you clarified it, but now I'm more confused than ever. LOL