about see-saw-y cue/stroke motion

[evergruven]

Holy cow. You were talking about the pendulum motion? I never would have gotten that in a million years. Glad you clarified it, but now I'm more confused than ever. LOL

I wasn't initially talking about the pendulum, just the physical motion of the cue seesawing
inspired by the course of this discussion, I was able to refine my interest to the pendulum
no need to be confused- sometimes it just take time to get to a place, y'know?

 

[BlueRaider]

Ye makes sense that his wavy stroke wasn't there from the start given he started out in snooker.

Mika was my main stroke model when I started out based on what I saw from him in that 2001 run. His flow and brief to nonexistent pause really resonated with me as his warmup strokes were true rehearsal strokes rather than feathering or anything different from the final delivery. I especially took note of and copied how he preset the conditions in his grip and wrist in his PSR before even getting down, making very different final moves prior to spin shots and stun shots. It was eye opening for me then and I think a lot of players can learn a lot watching him.

I have played several techniques over the years but always found myself returning to that Mika style (a kind of blend of Filipino and European styles) as I always found that style gave me the best level of speed control while still feeling like it was on rails straight. He's always been one of my favorite players to watch (and emulate).

Mika's warm-up strokes seem like they would absolutely eliminate any tension in your arm, which is obviously a huge plus when playing pool.

For a long time I tried to emulate the most robotic pros out there with the rigid warm-up strokes, the very pronounced pause, and the very slow initial pullback of the cue. All it did was create massive amounts of tension in my body/arm. Maybe it would work for me if I truly committed to it, but I find it an uncomfortable way of playing.

That said, I can't commit to the loosey-goosey warm-up strokes, either. I really like Filler's approach, as it's clear he's not rushing things, but he's not spending an extra millisecond down on the table if he doesn't have to. Emulating him a bit has seemed to help me get in the zone faster than before.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Mika's warm-up strokes seem like they would absolutely eliminate any tension in your arm, which is obviously a huge plus when playing pool.

For a long time I tried to emulate the most robotic pros out there with the rigid warm-up strokes, the very pronounced pause, and the very slow initial pullback of the cue. All it did was create massive amounts of tension in my body/arm. Maybe it would work for me if I truly committed to it, but I find it an uncomfortable way of playing.

That said, I can't commit to the loosey-goosey warm-up strokes, either. I really like Filler's approach, as it's clear he's not rushing things, but he's not spending an extra millisecond down on the table if he doesn't have to. Emulating him a bit has seemed to help me get in the zone faster than before.

Different strokes for different folks. I menrioned theGoldie Locks method of finding what works best for you recently regarding stroke length. Try very short, try very ling....appreciate what makes each one effective. Then find the length that is just right for u.
Same can be applied to tension level. Try max loose and flowy, try locked down and tightly under control throughout. Then find the middle ground that works best for you and how you prefer to move.
For me, Mika's style...or my approximation of it anyway....was a perfect blend of mechanical fail safes to keep the stroke from breaking down and a flowing motion that allows for both effortless power and excellent speed control.
Some will prefer short and tight, some will be best suited to long loose and flowy. Most will fall somewhere between the extremes and need to find the right blend of what makes each extreme work for them to play their best.

 

[bbb]

 

[Bob Jewett]

Watch the elbow. He has a lot of elbow motion on the final stroke. His stroke could be called "loopy". I think it would be wrong to teach that to a beginner unless they could not develop a pendulum, piston, or J stroke after serious effort. I see no advantage to that kind of stroke.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I see no advantage to that kind of stroke.

And yet Mika transitioned away from a technique befitting his snooker background to this stroke. Must be some advantages there you aren't seeing

 

[Bob Jewett]

And yet Mika transitioned away from a technique befitting his snooker background to this stroke. Must be some advantages there you aren't seeing

Or maybe not. On a one-off you never know.

 

[FranCrimi]

And yet Mika transitioned away from a technique befitting his snooker background to this stroke. Must be some advantages there you aren't seeing

Yes, I belive there are advantages, but limited to a particular style of play. The Filipino style of play is to not hard-strike the ball, but to roll it as often as possible. I know from two separate but extremely reliable sources, that their methodology comes from a martial arts theory of striking, which came from Efren's mentor. I don't know his name, but he was the best player of the time in the Philippines who Efren emulated in his early years.

Efren always said that his 9 ball break was his worst shot. I can imagine that it was difficult, as hard-striking goes against his methodology.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Or maybe not. On a one-off you never know.

He's hardly a one-off given he is emulating a style an entire nation is known for. In Fedor Gorst's interview with Rogan, he mentioned how on his trip to the Philippines he was absolutely shocked with how good everyone was....everyone. Not just 'players' but any guy off the street could run a rack or 2 of 9ball, like the bartender who barely ever played that Fedor played against who ran 2 racks on him like it was nothing. That style def has its advantages. Speed control, effortless power, among them. If the delivery repeats, who cares what it looks like? Mika's mobile elbow didn't stop him from winning a World 9b, World 10b, and 2 US Opens. And I reiterate, he changed to that technique from a snooker style so at least in his view, this stroke was more advantageous than that.

Yes, I belive there are advantages, but limited to a particular style of play. The Filipino style of play is to not hard-strike the ball, but to roll it as often as possible. I know from two separate but extremely reliable sources, that their methodology comes from a martial arts theory of striking, which came from Efren's mentor. I don't know his name, but he was the best player of the time in the Philippines who Efren emulated in his early years.

Efren always said that his 9 ball break was his worst shot. I can imagine that it was difficult, as hard-striking goes against his methodology.

While their style is to get around the table with max efficiency meaning they roll it whenever they can and try to let angles do the work, they can pound it when they need to as well. And given they are often playing on tables in barns that can be pretty slow (shout out to rando Filipino YouTube games), they definitely need the cue power to get around. A common feature of Filipino strokes is their effortless power. One of Efren's most famous shots is that one he hit "a million miles an hour" as Davenport called it on the commentary. And that wizzardry Efren routinely pulled off with the CB, def needed a powerful stroke.

I have heard the martial arts roots mentioned as well. But the martial arts base can be applied to styles beyond just the Filipino style as Max Eberle, when teaching Joe Rogan (a martial artist), explained the 'why' of mechanics to his student in his own language by showing him martial arts moves which translate well to pool strokes. The martial artists figured out efficient ways to use the arms. The execution of some are quite counter-intuitive. If you know what you're looking for, you see it. If you don't, the stroke just looks like it has a bunch of moving parts that don't need to be moving and you scratch your head wondering what the advantage to such a stroke is in the first place .

 

[FranCrimi]

He's hardly a one-off given he is emulating a style an entire nation is known for. In Fedor Gorst's interview with Rogan, he mentioned how on his trip to the Philippines he was absolutely shocked with how good everyone was....everyone. Not just 'players' but any guy off the street could run a rack or 2 of 9ball, like the bartender who barely ever played that Fedor played against who ran 2 racks on him like it was nothing. That style def has its advantages. Speed control, effortless power, among them. If the delivery repeats, who cares what it looks like? Mika's mobile elbow didn't stop him from winning a World 9b, World 10b, and 2 US Opens. And I reiterate, he changed to that technique from a snooker style so at least in his view, this stroke was more advantageous than that.


While their style is to get around the table with max efficiency meaning they roll it whenever they can and try to let angles do the work, they can pound it when they need to as well. And given they are often playing on tables in barns that can be pretty slow (shout out to rando Filipino YouTube games), they definitely need the cue power to get around. A common feature of Filipino strokes is their effortless power. One of Efren's most famous shots is that one he hit "a million miles an hour" as Davenport called it on the commentary. And that wizzardry Efren routinely pulled off with the CB, def needed a powerful stroke.

I have heard the martial arts roots mentioned as well. But the martial arts base can be applied to styles beyond just the Filipino style as Max Eberle, when teaching Joe Rogan (a martial artist), explained the 'why' of mechanics to his student in his own language by showing him martial arts moves which translate well to pool strokes. The martial artists figured out efficient ways to use the arms. The execution of some are quite counter-intuitive. If you know what you're looking for, you see it. If you don't, the stroke just looks like it has a bunch of moving parts that don't need to be moving and you scratch your head wondering what the advantage to such a stroke is in the first place .

Well, you seem to know a whole lot more than I do in just about everything, so I will yield to you from now-on.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Well, you seem to know a whole lot more than I do in just about everything, so I will yield to you from now-on.

Yes, the sub-forum has a new alpha-instructor.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Well, you seem to know a whole lot more than I do in just about everything, so I will yield to you from now-on.

LOL.
Not in the least. But modeling non-standard strokes was something I have done a lot of at first as part of my motor-control schooling and then as a hobby. There is only so many different types of throws you can model before they all look the same so branching out to other movements to break the monotony was a must. A lot of the same principles apply. Many pool strokes can be modeled as 'simple throws' so in this regard I'm sure I have some insights into how some funky looking ones work and what makes them repeatable that other instructors without such a technical background in the minutia of throws don't yet have. But I will share all that soon as you know from our DMs.

You know very well I respect you and Bob and any other instructor on here to the max for sharing. I have learned from both of your posts. Only fair I show you something you haven't seen once in a while too.