about two shots
- Thread starter evergruven
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Willowbrook Wolfy
Going pro
On that 8 ball. There are so many ways to get it done. You could even be in a “flashy mood” and go with hard bottom right to sweep the end of the table 3/4 rails on it. Or go with a hard force follow to stick the cb 1 ft off the rail for the 9. That’s based off your diagram
To win. I’m going to assume the 8 was a bit further from the corner. If I’m shooting good going bottom left on it for a little bit of throw and cheating the left side of the corner pocket. Leaving CB back about 6 in and maybe a bit closer to the side rail. Or else if I’m nervous or not playing the best just going full top soft with a pretty full hit on 8 and still cheating the left side of the pocket. Based on your diagram(CB to 8 ball positions) That should carry it to the right off the back rail without any right on it. Worst case you hit it too hard and it hits the 9 on way down.
The one constant in all those is they all require you to shoot at left side of the pocket. I wouldn’t shoot that ball anywhere else. A lot of people forget there are two balls worth of space in each hole and a little more sometimes. Always use the whole pocket to your advantage.
To win. I’m going to assume the 8 was a bit further from the corner. If I’m shooting good going bottom left on it for a little bit of throw and cheating the left side of the corner pocket. Leaving CB back about 6 in and maybe a bit closer to the side rail. Or else if I’m nervous or not playing the best just going full top soft with a pretty full hit on 8 and still cheating the left side of the pocket. Based on your diagram(CB to 8 ball positions) That should carry it to the right off the back rail without any right on it. Worst case you hit it too hard and it hits the 9 on way down.
The one constant in all those is they all require you to shoot at left side of the pocket. I wouldn’t shoot that ball anywhere else. A lot of people forget there are two balls worth of space in each hole and a little more sometimes. Always use the whole pocket to your advantage.
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tomatoshooter
Well-known member
It seems to become significant when you are closer than 45° to the first rail. I guess it depends on how much running English you use, but at shallow angles the cue ball picks up a lot of running English from the first rail which throws it wide off the second rail.
I'm currently more focused on other parts of my game so I haven't prioritized 2 rail kicks. It seems like when I learn something and do it relatively well, and then take a few days to work on something else, I lose the first skill so fast. If I miss a day it takes me two days to get back where I was.
Willowbrook Wolfy
Going pro
That 2 rail kick. I’m going two but not planning to make it so hitting it hard enough to put the cb back by the cluster and the OB in middle of the table. If it falls there is a chance I’ll have another shot. But 80% going for kick safe. If it rattles it rattles and I’ll get him the next game.
I still think the 1-rail is the right shot here...(especially for a lefty)......but since the discussion is more of the 2-rail option (for someone that does not seem to have a lot of background in 2 rail shots or likely shape in general)...I will throw this out....I know the application of both the plus system and the parallel lines systems....And they are deemed the "sexy" methods..........but here is another down and dirty (base) way of judging the CBs track line off the second rail.....
I don't know the official name of this method and/or remember when and where I learnt it......I am pretty sure any seasoned player is going to know this as the fundamental base used for shooting shots and determine shape using follow/draw/english to change the track line...but these track lines can also be applied for kicks....Dot to Dot tracks send the CB toward the center of the table....parallel track lines also send the CB toward the center of the table....It is pretty easy to see the minor adjustment needed to lengthen the track line a bit to hit the 1-ball using those base track lines.
So either way...1 or 2 rail you are probably going to hit the 1.....But I hope y'all shoot the 2 rail against me since both balls will likely be going in the same direction and when/if you miss are way more likely to sell out........vs. using the 1-rail and having your opponent sitting in the chair saying "damn....you always get so lucky on the leaves" when the CB comes off the 1 and caroms behind the 7/3/8/9 potential blockers.....or perhaps you hit the bottom side of the 1 and the one goes behind the 3/7/8/9.........My standard reply is always...."yeah.....I tend miss better than I shoot"
I don't know the official name of this method and/or remember when and where I learnt it......I am pretty sure any seasoned player is going to know this as the fundamental base used for shooting shots and determine shape using follow/draw/english to change the track line...but these track lines can also be applied for kicks....Dot to Dot tracks send the CB toward the center of the table....parallel track lines also send the CB toward the center of the table....It is pretty easy to see the minor adjustment needed to lengthen the track line a bit to hit the 1-ball using those base track lines.
So either way...1 or 2 rail you are probably going to hit the 1.....But I hope y'all shoot the 2 rail against me since both balls will likely be going in the same direction and when/if you miss are way more likely to sell out........vs. using the 1-rail and having your opponent sitting in the chair saying "damn....you always get so lucky on the leaves" when the CB comes off the 1 and caroms behind the 7/3/8/9 potential blockers.....or perhaps you hit the bottom side of the 1 and the one goes behind the 3/7/8/9.........My standard reply is always...."yeah.....I tend miss better than I shoot"
Oikawa
Well-known member
For two-railers where I prioritize hitting the OB with the highest probability (such as your example), I use the midpoint parallel shift method, but with a thoughtful way of adjusting from it by feel. After doing the parallel shift and standing at the baseline from it, I do the following:
(My base line for tip position is 1 tip of running side, and maximum top. I only adjust from this if the hit can't be made like that, e.g. if I need check side or swerve)
I visualize the following three lines:
CB -> First rail impact
First rail impact -> Second rail impact
Second rail impact -> Target impact
Then, I consider two things:
1. The angle that the CB is coming into the two rail impacts. I observe how much the running side will alter the angle off both the first and the second rail based on the speed I intend to shoot at, and how flat the angle is towards those rails. This takes some experience and feel to be able to judge well and depends slightly on the table as well, but the basic idea is that faster speed = more angle change, and that flatter angle = less angle change.
It is important to consider the loss of speed during the balls movement between the first and second rail, especially if the distance between them is long and you are shooting pretty softly.
Now, after considering those things, I will have a feel of whether the angle off the 1st and 2nd rail would make the overall shot miss long or short from the OB, and by how much, if we ignored the other one and assumed the other rail performed like a perfect mirror.
(Will add image here later for clearer example of what I mean)
2. The difference between the distance of the path from 1st to 2nd rail, and from 2nd rail to OB. Now that we know what rail impact makes the CB go short or long, and by how much, we can consider the ratio between the distance of the paths after the two impacts, to see how much they get to affect the shot as a whole.
For example, if the ratio is 1/4, such that the path after 2nd rail is 4x longer to OB than from 1st rail to 2nd rail, whatever shortening/longening happened between 1st and 2nd rail has a 4x smaller effect to the whole compared to the second impacts shortening/longening.
So, to simplify the whole thing, considering the both individual rail impacts shortening/longening of the CB path, and then considering a ratio between the two relevant path distances to amplify the shortening/longening effects strength towards the whole shot, will give a very informed feel for how much to adjust the shot. This adjustment is simply aiming some amount to the left or right from the baseline.
I almost never miss two-railers with this style. To practice it, you can throw balls on the table and just try to hit balls with this method from varying positions. If you put in the thought, you will notice fast improvement towards the accuracy of the adjustments.
It's not really a system due to no math to follow or formulas involved, but rather a way of breaking apart the shot, absorbing all the relevant factors that matter, and giving them to your subconscious to let it make a more informed decision for how much to adjust, instead of just looking at the shot and doing the adjustment 100% intuitively.
(My base line for tip position is 1 tip of running side, and maximum top. I only adjust from this if the hit can't be made like that, e.g. if I need check side or swerve)
I visualize the following three lines:
CB -> First rail impact
First rail impact -> Second rail impact
Second rail impact -> Target impact
Then, I consider two things:
1. The angle that the CB is coming into the two rail impacts. I observe how much the running side will alter the angle off both the first and the second rail based on the speed I intend to shoot at, and how flat the angle is towards those rails. This takes some experience and feel to be able to judge well and depends slightly on the table as well, but the basic idea is that faster speed = more angle change, and that flatter angle = less angle change.
It is important to consider the loss of speed during the balls movement between the first and second rail, especially if the distance between them is long and you are shooting pretty softly.
Now, after considering those things, I will have a feel of whether the angle off the 1st and 2nd rail would make the overall shot miss long or short from the OB, and by how much, if we ignored the other one and assumed the other rail performed like a perfect mirror.
(Will add image here later for clearer example of what I mean)
2. The difference between the distance of the path from 1st to 2nd rail, and from 2nd rail to OB. Now that we know what rail impact makes the CB go short or long, and by how much, we can consider the ratio between the distance of the paths after the two impacts, to see how much they get to affect the shot as a whole.
For example, if the ratio is 1/4, such that the path after 2nd rail is 4x longer to OB than from 1st rail to 2nd rail, whatever shortening/longening happened between 1st and 2nd rail has a 4x smaller effect to the whole compared to the second impacts shortening/longening.
So, to simplify the whole thing, considering the both individual rail impacts shortening/longening of the CB path, and then considering a ratio between the two relevant path distances to amplify the shortening/longening effects strength towards the whole shot, will give a very informed feel for how much to adjust the shot. This adjustment is simply aiming some amount to the left or right from the baseline.
I almost never miss two-railers with this style. To practice it, you can throw balls on the table and just try to hit balls with this method from varying positions. If you put in the thought, you will notice fast improvement towards the accuracy of the adjustments.
It's not really a system due to no math to follow or formulas involved, but rather a way of breaking apart the shot, absorbing all the relevant factors that matter, and giving them to your subconscious to let it make a more informed decision for how much to adjust, instead of just looking at the shot and doing the adjustment 100% intuitively.
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Lots of places, but here's a video from Dr. Dave:
It's also in Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards if you like your info on paper.
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Just for my clarification....using the Plus 2 system: Where would you aim on the first rail?
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When the OB ball is that far off the rail you kind of have to judge the track line exiting the second rail to the third...I guess we will see if answers are different...but the way it lays to me is the track line is going towards about 7.5....The CB is sitting just about the 3.5 track line to 4.......so my choice for the two rail would be 4 on the end rail with a touch of running English.
Yes, that's what you have to do. I don't know of any sub-system for plus-2 that tells you where the cue ball hits the second rail.
I set my 9’ table to try solutions. Diagram 1 I was able to shoot 1 rail and contact the one ball no problem. Then I tried to two rail by shooting top rail between first and middle diamonds far side. First shot I missed by less than a inch. Next three tries hit it perfect with running English.
Diagram 2. I thought would be easy with top right English. Wrong! I shit up. So I played with this for awhile stop shot softly held me there. Low right English brought me two rails to the other side of the 9 close to the pocket. So I quit with it. And got to thinking. Trying rail first no English. It put me fat side of the 9 ball about four inches from ball. Thanks for the post gave me something to do while my left hand is in a cast.
Diagram 2. I thought would be easy with top right English. Wrong! I shit up. So I played with this for awhile stop shot softly held me there. Low right English brought me two rails to the other side of the 9 close to the pocket. So I quit with it. And got to thinking. Trying rail first no English. It put me fat side of the 9 ball about four inches from ball. Thanks for the post gave me something to do while my left hand is in a cast.
nice. I only had time to try diagram 2 last night..didn't think to try rail-first with no english!
tried it with a tip of running english each time, and ran smack into the 9, each time
I actually had the most consistent success just clipping the 8 with inside english, no top
if I hit it fat, the cb is left for a long, but relatively straight shot on the 9
if I just nick the 8, the cb bounces off the top and side rails, and I get even closer to it
maybe gonna get to try it on slicker cloth later today
take care that lefty, despite what they show you in pool movies
It's the fraction of the ball that you hit. A quarter ball gives roughly a 45 degree cut. Here you go:
Fractional-Ball Aiming - Dr. Dave Pool Info
Answers to frequently-asked questions about fractional-ball aiming.
billiards.colostate.edu
I hit both shots for the heck of it....
Not knocking the creativity and fun of a rail first shot there.....but just be careful....adding an element (rail first) brings with it all kinds of crazy not desirable outcomes....or scratch possibilities....Just for kicks and grins I set up and shot both shots......The face of the 8-ball is exposed (in that picture)....meaning it would be really hard to catch a pocket facing....."For the cash"....I am shooting the shot that pretty much guarantees me a shot on the 9.....Shoot the eight center pocket with top right....The top actually rubs off on a medium (smoooth) speed so you could just use right....The only reason I use top is so that if I get the yips and over hit the shot...it will kill....(and I still have a shot).....Hit smoothly the CB gets all the way to the second diamond.
The 2 rail is definatly 4 with a touch of running english....and what I mean by a touch is basically just making sure you don't put kill english on it which would lengthen it out.........
Side note....You could go to 5 with about a 1/2 tip of running english and also make a hit...
Side Side note....Hit the shot about 10 times.......Sold out every time
Per the diagram again, hitting the 8 - even going around the 6 for the bottom rail first looks like a big fat scratch waiting to happen. I'd be tempted to juice it up and go 4 (LSLL) at the 8.