Added Money and Room Owners

mapman72

mapman72

New member
Ok. So I've made a couple observations about the whole "Tour concept" and "added money":

1. Tour officials meet with room owner and get room owner to put up added money.
2. Then, the responsibility seems to shift back to the tour officials to do all the marketing for the tournament.
3. Room owners seem disappointed when they lose money (of course) and are less likely to continue supporting the tour.

Now, I am not a room owner and I can imagine that it is tough to make a living with the economy in the state that it's in, but I do think room owners/management could do more to ensure attendance numbers are what they hope for. I think that room owners feel like they added a large amount of money, so the tour has the responsibility to fill the room. I see their point. However, if you want tour events with 100 players and not 25, perhaps there are things that the room owner can do, at minimum expense, to help ensure that and possibly get more spectators.

If it were me, I would probably take some additional steps. Perhaps room owners could market in the local paper or a local radio station. A radio spot that says, "Come to Q Masters for the XXX Pool Tour and see the best pool players on the East Coast." See if the APA, BCA, etc will let you put flyers in their envelopes. And, to attract decent league players who may not want to participate, but rather spectate, offer drink specials during the duration of the pool tournament. Other ideas include posting information in local college newspapers advertising the drink specials and the tournament, keeping a good business website, and send out emails to the regulars encouraging to come to the tournament and bring friends.

I'm not sure if these are the answers, but I've noticed less and less rooms willing to participate in the "tour model" as it currently exists. Please reply with some additional ideas, and think outside the box. I think we need to start being creative about how to generate interest and added monies.

Oh, and my observations are just that. I am not coming down on room owners, tour directors, or anyone else. I'm just trying to brainstorm new ways to keep these tournaments going.
 
Most room owners hope to break even during the tourney or lose just a little. They do it to promote the room mostly, but you are right that its getting harder to do for most room owners in this econemy.
 
mapman72 said:
Ok. So I've made a couple observations about the whole "Tour concept" and "added money":

1. Tour officials meet with room owner and get room owner to put up added money.
2. Then, the responsibility seems to shift back to the tour officials to do all the marketing for the tournament.
3. Room owners seem disappointed when they lose money (of course) and are less likely to continue supporting the tour.

Now, I am not a room owner and I can imagine that it is tough to make a living with the economy in the state that it's in, but I do think room owners/management could do more to ensure attendance numbers are what they hope for. I think that room owners feel like they added a large amount of money, so the tour has the responsibility to fill the room. I see their point. However, if you want tour events with 100 players and not 25, perhaps there are things that the room owner can do, at minimum expense, to help ensure that and possibly get more spectators.

If it were me, I would probably take some additional steps. Perhaps room owners could market in the local paper or a local radio station. A radio spot that says, "Come to Q Masters for the XXX Pool Tour and see the best pool players on the East Coast." See if the APA, BCA, etc will let you put flyers in their envelopes. And, to attract decent league players who may not want to participate, but rather spectate, offer drink specials during the duration of the pool tournament. Other ideas include posting information in local college newspapers advertising the drink specials and the tournament, keeping a good business website, and send out emails to the regulars encouraging to come to the tournament and bring friends.

I'm not sure if these are the answers, but I've noticed less and less rooms willing to participate in the "tour model" as it currently exists. Please reply with some additional ideas, and think outside the box. I think we need to start being creative about how to generate interest and added monies.

Oh, and my observations are just that. I am not coming down on room owners, tour directors, or anyone else. I'm just trying to brainstorm new ways to keep these tournaments going.
Click to expand...

Of course I could go on and on and on about this but the simplest answer is. The tournament players need to help out the tour operators and room owners with a few things.

1. The players have to support the rooms by playing there even when there is no tournament. AND the players need to eat and buy their soda's, beers and such from that pool room while the event is taking place. Way too many players go out to eat. That really hurts a room owners pocket book and feelings and makes them less likely to do events.

2. The players can help support the event by telling everyone locally about the event. Most do but this still needs encouragement. The players also need to start teaching other non-pool players about the game and taking them to events. remember how addictive it was for you in the beginning? it will be the same for them.

3. The TO's and RO's can do many additional in the box things at low costs but it seems many of them take for granted what could be done instead of doing it and making sure it is done.

4. SPONSORS, SPONSORS, SPONSORS, I can not say this enough. If we/you as players want more money added to events YOU HAVE TO purchase products from companies that SUPPORT OUR SPORT!. Many take for granted that others are purchasing the sponsors products but the players need to take responsibility in this to and purchase from sponsors of our sport. I see many players using custom cues, custom cases and coming to events in regular t-shirts from a local restaurant or bar instead of pool room or sponsor. Here is a simple compromise for players that want the custom stuff. OK keep your custom cue. If it feels good in your hand play with it BUT by a sponsors tip, shaft, or a sponsors Jump cue to go with it in your case. Oh, and that custom case needs to go, there are many sponsors that offer cases that will hold your pool cues just as good without all the flash at a cheaper price to you. Shirts,,,,, wear a pool related shirt to tournaments. Nobody at that event cares about your 50 different Polo's they want to see who you represent in our sport. And I as a TD would like to see the same. in fact my dress code even at my larger events state that if it is pool related you can and should wear it. Yes this includes t-shirts to.

Just my 2 cents.

Mj
 
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mapman72 said:
Ok. So I've made a couple observations about the whole "Tour concept" and "added money":

1. Tour officials meet with room owner and get room owner to put up added money.
2. Then, the responsibility seems to shift back to the tour officials to do all the marketing for the tournament.
3. Room owners seem disappointed when they lose money (of course) and are less likely to continue supporting the tour.

Now, I am not a room owner and I can imagine that it is tough to make a living with the economy in the state that it's in, but I do think room owners/management could do more to ensure attendance numbers are what they hope for. I think that room owners feel like they added a large amount of money, so the tour has the responsibility to fill the room. I see their point. However, if you want tour events with 100 players and not 25, perhaps there are things that the room owner can do, at minimum expense, to help ensure that and possibly get more spectators.

If it were me, I would probably take some additional steps. Perhaps room owners could market in the local paper or a local radio station. A radio spot that says, "Come to Q Masters for the XXX Pool Tour and see the best pool players on the East Coast." See if the APA, BCA, etc will let you put flyers in their envelopes. And, to attract decent league players who may not want to participate, but rather spectate, offer drink specials during the duration of the pool tournament. Other ideas include posting information in local college newspapers advertising the drink specials and the tournament, keeping a good business website, and send out emails to the regulars encouraging to come to the tournament and bring friends.

I'm not sure if these are the answers, but I've noticed less and less rooms willing to participate in the "tour model" as it currently exists. Please reply with some additional ideas, and think outside the box. I think we need to start being creative about how to generate interest and added monies.

Oh, and my observations are just that. I am not coming down on room owners, tour directors, or anyone else. I'm just trying to brainstorm new ways to keep these tournaments going.
Click to expand...

Nice ideas Mapman. I too believe room owners do far less than they should be doing but I'm not one and I imagine they have a lot to do just keeping up with their business.

Room owners SHOULD collect email addresses of their customers and those potential players in nearby marketing areas. It is probably the most economical form of communication that a room owner could have. They can collect the email addresses at tournaments.
JoeyA
 
MikeJanis said:
Just my 2 cents.

Mj
Click to expand...

Brace yourself, Mike. I agree with most of what you said. Weird, right? But the things you say are how to optimize the current, existing model. What I was proposing was something radically different; maybe something that hasn't been tried yet. As far as sponsorship goes, I agree that it's needed. I don't agree that players should stop buying custom cues and cases. Let's face it, it's America and people should buy what they want. If people aren't buying the sponsor cues, cases, and accessories, than that's an issue for the sponsor to increase quality or decrease price. Simple economics. Just curious, has Viking ever given money directly to a purse, where you don't have to get the room owner to put up $2k? I think that might be where we're going wrong in this equation. Shouldn't a title sponsor be the main source of added money? Sounds crazy, but hear me out. If Viking gave you $2k per tournament and you didn't need to have the room owner put up money, the room owner could use the money they save to improve their tables, add space, upgrade the bar, etc, etc. All of this could lead to an increase in participants. So Viking is out 2k up front for the tournament, but then they get 3x more people at the events, exposed to their products, because the room is so nice, there is spectator seating, and the playing conditions are the nutz! Maybe Viking is already doing this, but I'm pretty sure the room owners are still pressed to raise the added money and it's got to be tough.

Anyway, good thoughts on the existing model.
 
Oh, and I also agree that the players can do more. That's one of the reasons that I'm starting this thread.
 
mapman72 said:
Brace yourself, Mike. I agree with most of what you said. Weird, right? But the things you say are how to optimize the current, existing model. What I was proposing was something radically different; maybe something that hasn't been tried yet. As far as sponsorship goes, I agree that it's needed. I don't agree that players should stop buying custom cues and cases. Let's face it, it's America and people should buy what they want. If people aren't buying the sponsor cues, cases, and accessories, than that's an issue for the sponsor to increase quality or decrease price. Simple economics. Just curious, has Viking ever given money directly to a purse, where you don't have to get the room owner to put up $2k? I think that might be where we're going wrong in this equation. Shouldn't a title sponsor but the main source of added money? Sounds crazy, but here me out. If Viking gave you $2k per tournament and you didn't need to have the room owner put up money, the room owner could use the money they save to improve their tables, add space, upgrade the bar, etc, etc. All of this could lead to an increase in participants. So Viking is out 2k up front for the tournament, but then they get 3x more people at the events, exposed to their products, because the room is so nice, there is spectator seating, and the playing conditions are the nutz! Maybe Viking is already doing this, but I'm pretty sure the room owners are still pressed to raise the added money and it's got to be tough.

Anyway, good thoughts on the existing model.
Click to expand...


Mapman, 1st. YES I am surprised that you agree with me in the most part. 2nd, I am not saying do not buy custom cues I am just saying compromise. Use a custom cue but add a production break cue or a sponsors cue to your case to use in situations you do not want to bring your High end custom to also add a sponsors shaft or tip and case and such, it seems reasonably fair to help support the sport in that way. 3rd, yes, Viking has added cash. However this is mostly done on the many televised events they sponsor. I am not privy to the details and amounts but I would guess it is as much if not more than any other sponsor in our sport. 4th, the $100,000.00 per year in product support from Viking alone is a pretty bug chunk regardless of it being in cash or product. If you look at it in value vs cost $2,000 in retail product value is at a minimum worth $1,000 in cash. Right now and and as it has been and will be this type of sponsorship gives the best bang for the buck from all sponsors to room owners and I do not foresee it changing anytime in the near future. It is what we have to work with so we (all tours) do our best with what we are able to get from the sponsors.

My system is simple, if I have XXXX amount of retail value to give to room owners for each event their fee is only xx. This equation on the Viking Tour is closer to 2-1 than it is on any other tour and yes at times it is a tough sell but again it is what is available to the regional tour networks. On this type of system the RO's put the $$ up front but have little problem getting it back on the back-end regardless of the event turn-out. Sponsorship products to RO's is kind of like insurance for the event costs.

As far as cash goes. That is every TO' dream but has never been a reality. That's just the nature of the beast and exactly why you see us Td's hustlin raffle tickets and sales at events.

I have now been doing tournaments as my chosen profession for about 17 years. Please, if you find a way out of the box please let me and others know. All of us are looking for better ideas all the time to grow our sport.

NOW, if all the good TO's, RO's and sponsors would get together on something like the ATS or the ATS itself that would be a BIG push in the right direction for our sport and enable us as a combined unit to offer 500-800 events each year on a national/international level to a major sponsor then maybe, just maybe we will have a shot at the cash.

Mj
 
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mapman72 said:
Ok. So I've made a couple observations about the whole "Tour concept" and "added money":

1. Tour officials meet with room owner and get room owner to put up added money.
2. Then, the responsibility seems to shift back to the tour officials to do all the marketing for the tournament.
3. Room owners seem disappointed when they lose money (of course) and are less likely to continue supporting the tour.

Now, I am not a room owner and I can imagine that it is tough to make a living with the economy in the state that it's in, but I do think room owners/management could do more to ensure attendance numbers are what they hope for. I think that room owners feel like they added a large amount of money, so the tour has the responsibility to fill the room. I see their point. However, if you want tour events with 100 players and not 25, perhaps there are things that the room owner can do, at minimum expense, to help ensure that and possibly get more spectators.

If it were me, I would probably take some additional steps. Perhaps room owners could market in the local paper or a local radio station. A radio spot that says, "Come to Q Masters for the XXX Pool Tour and see the best pool players on the East Coast." See if the APA, BCA, etc will let you put flyers in their envelopes. And, to attract decent league players who may not want to participate, but rather spectate, offer drink specials during the duration of the pool tournament. Other ideas include posting information in local college newspapers advertising the drink specials and the tournament, keeping a good business website, and send out emails to the regulars encouraging to come to the tournament and bring friends.

I'm not sure if these are the answers, but I've noticed less and less rooms willing to participate in the "tour model" as it currently exists. Please reply with some additional ideas, and think outside the box. I think we need to start being creative about how to generate interest and added monies.

Oh, and my observations are just that. I am not coming down on room owners, tour directors, or anyone else. I'm just trying to brainstorm new ways to keep these tournaments going.
Click to expand...


I personally think you have some good points and idea's, and I am a room owner. The biggest problem with supporting tour's are the tour's themselves in my opinion. In certain parts of the country there are a number of tour's to chose from that a room owner can support. However, in my area there are no tour's running, with that said large full sponsored tournaments are the only option.

Now when it comes to this, most room owners want to support their local players that support their business. However, in order to do this it becomes very difficult to have open event's and handicapping is almost impossible.

So for the most part, one or two times a year I have a BCA event where I add between $300 & $600, in addition I have drawings for Cues and Cases. I do this to support the teams that play our of my Room, I don't make any money on these affairs, but in most cases I do break even or at least close. I personally think that it is the responsibility of room owners to focus on their local players, and that giving something back to them is very important.

Good Thread, Thanks
 
mapman72 said:
Ok. So I've made a couple observations about the whole "Tour concept" and "added money":

1. Tour officials meet with room owner and get room owner to put up added money.
2. Then, the responsibility seems to shift back to the tour officials to do all the marketing for the tournament.
3. Room owners seem disappointed when they lose money (of course) and are less likely to continue supporting the tour.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Arizona, and you forgot # 4

4. Room Owner quit running Tournaments, and go to profitable League/Social Play only, and get back in the money making business.
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Sounds like Arizona, and you forgot # 4

4. Room Owner quit running Tournaments, and go to profitable League/Social Play only, and get back in the money making business.
Click to expand...

Exactly the problem. But let's face it, there are a percentage of the league/social players that would either want to try to compete in an added tournament, or come to watch an added event with strong players. I say the room owners can target these folks as well. If you look at most successful tour venues, they have leagues and added events. They are not mutually exclusive.

Well, judging by the amount of replies, people don't really want to put in the energy to think outside of the box and come up with some great ideas. While Mike J. replied with his opinions and why the model he uses could really be effective, I was hoping that someone would come up with such a great idea that it might change the way Mike and others do business, thereby making life better for the player and the room owner. Don't worry, I'll keep thinking...
 
mapman72, is this the kind out of the box thinking you are looking for ?

For the 1st Time In The History Of Our Sport a 9-Ball Tournament is 4-Sale on Ebay

If you want to bring a great $3,000 added tournament to your local pool room this is your chance.

Highest bidder in 10 days wins.

1 - $3,000 Added Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour Event
This includes a $2K added Open and a $1K Added Amateur

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-3-000-Added-V...ryZ75194QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
hmmm

My question is........when are we going to tackle the real problem. The real difference between pool and SUCCESSFUL sports/games.

When are we going to stop relying on the pool PLAYER to produce money for the pool rooms and sponsors???

Until pool becomes a SPECTATOR sport, it will never develop to the likes of the PGA and other successful associations.

I wrote a very long and drawn out post about this earlier, however, for some reason, it didn't go through?

I'll go into further detail if anyone wishes to address this subject.

Thanks
 
vapoolplayer said:
My question is........when are we going to tackle the real problem. The real difference between pool and SUCCESSFUL sports/games.

When are we going to stop relying on the pool PLAYER to produce money for the pool rooms and sponsors???

Until pool becomes a SPECTATOR sport, it will never develop to the likes of the PGA and other successful associations.

I wrote a very long and drawn out post about this earlier, however, for some reason, it didn't go through?

I'll go into further detail if anyone wishes to address this subject.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I would like to hear about it.

I have thought for quite sometime that the Pro's make themselves too accessable to everyone to command a spectator fee. It has been an unfortunate catch 22 for pro pool. The players can always be seen or played against on the regional circuits and this alone lessons their value to have fans see them play. Why pay $50 to watch when you can pay $50 to play with them.
 
MikeJanis said:
I would like to hear about it.

I have thought for quite sometime that the Pro's make themselves too accessable to everyone to command a spectator fee. It has been an unfortunate catch 22 for pro pool. The players can always be seen or played against on the regional circuits and this alone lessons their value to have fans see them play. Why pay $50 to watch when you can pay $50 to play with them.
Click to expand...

OK, here goes.......this is probably gonna be a long read. I apolgize in advance, and would like to remind you that I'm not responsible for any injuries sustained if you fall asleep reading this and fall out of your chair.

I'll take one of your earlier posts on this topic Mike. You said that players need to eat/drink at the establishment, and to support sponsors by buying their products.

Not trying to offend, but, thats not the way to make money in sports/games. If this is the case, basically you'll just have a closed loop system, where sponsors and players put some money into pool, and they just keep trading it back and forth. This has happened for all of about eternity for pool.

The key is, to bring in outside money. Go to any pool tournament nowadays, except for a very, very select few, and count how many players there are. Now, count the spectators......which one do you think is higher? Normally its the players.

Now, put yourself in the players shoes. First we'll look at the financial side......you've already paid the entry fee, you're stayin a hotel possibly. So, you're already in your own pocket for a decent amount. Well, now I need to support the place by buying their food, and I need to support sponsors. There is a good chance I might not even make any money in this tournament, so I'm at a total loss. Well, since I know that I might not cash, I'm going to eat at the MCD dollar menu, and I'm not going to spend extra money on the sponsoring merchandise.

Now, lets look at the other issues some people have. They are playing, so they don't want to eat a lot and get sluggish. They want to play their best, so they don't drink alcohol.

So, lets face reality........pool PLAYERS are not going to support pool. It doesn't happen in any other sport/game. Except for maybe poker, I can give you the reasons why, but thats another topic.

Pool has been around a long long time. Lets look at a sport that hasn't. Lets take Mixed Martial Arts for example. Namely, the UFC. They have been around about 15 years or so. They have come a long way and now are a multi-million dollar company, and a lot of their participants do very well for themselves.

They don't ask their fighters to pay entry fees, they don't ask them to buy food/beverages at the shows, they don't ask them to support sponsors.

So, what do they have that pool doesn't????

SPECTATORS!!!!!

This is true for every sport that is successful. You CANNOT be financially successful without a spectator audience AND fanbase. Period, no way, no how, not gonna happen.

I hadn't thought of it, but you're right Mike, players make themselves too accessible to the public.

If the average Joe sees pool on t.v. they think "hell, I can go down the road and do that".

Pool needs a more "elite" image. It needs to be something special. It needs to not be BORING.

Again, lets face reality, watching the typical nine ball game is quite boring, even for someone that knows the ins and outs of pool.

Until the average person can look at pool and say "wow, i could never be that good" or "wow, those guys are amazing" then pool is gonna be in trouble financially.

What is the reason sponsors actually sponsor people or events? The answer is "audience". They know that there is going to be a large audience at the event, and an even larger audience at home watching it on t.v..

If I'm a sponsor, why am I going to put up money for a pool tournament, that for the most part, only a 100 pool players are gonna see my product??

Bottom line is........once you get people "outside" of the pool world interested, the rest will fall into place. You won't be begging sponsors, they'll be begging you. You won't be begging room owners, they'll be coming to you.

Of course, this is no easy task, and I haven't the slightest how to change this.....hopefully someone has some ideas.

Thanks
 
vapoolplayer said:
OK, here goes.......this is probably gonna be a long read. I apolgize in advance, and would like to remind you that I'm not responsible for any injuries sustained if you fall asleep reading this and fall out of your chair.

I'll take one of your earlier posts on this topic Mike. You said that players need to eat/drink at the establishment, and to support sponsors by buying their products.

Not trying to offend, but, thats not the way to make money in sports/games. If this is the case, basically you'll just have a closed loop system, where sponsors and players put some money into pool, and they just keep trading it back and forth. This has happened for all of about eternity for pool.

The key is, to bring in outside money. Go to any pool tournament nowadays, except for a very, very select few, and count how many players there are. Now, count the spectators......which one do you think is higher? Normally its the players.
Click to expand...


OK, I have to stop you there. I was starting to go to sleep reading the rest....:rolleyes:

1 main thing that you absolutely have to remember is that pool is a participation sport, Not a spectator sport.

People would rather play than watch anyday and that is ok because if they play they are a part of the sport that we can track. AND if we can track it we can sell it to the sponsors inside and outside og the industry.

Mj
 
MikeJanis said:
OK, I have to stop you there. I was starting to go to sleep reading the rest....:rolleyes:

1 main thing that you absolutely have to remember is that pool is a participation sport, Not a spectator sport.

People would rather play than watch anyday and that is ok because if they play they are a part of the sport that we can track. AND if we can track it we can sell it to the sponsors inside and outside og the industry.

Mj
Click to expand...


I'm going to have to agree to disagree. Until it becomes a spectator sport, I'm afraid pool is at the best its ever gonna get.

Not being a smartass, but can you name any successfull sport/game that doesn't at least have a large audience at home watching on t.v.?

Poker even has a large home audience.

Basically what you're saying is that the only people that the sponsors have to appeal to, is pool players. Thats way too small of a demographic to try to focus on. If I'm a sponsor, I can find a way better bang for my buck.

Thanks
 
vapoolplayer said:
If I'm a sponsor, why am I going to put up money for a pool tournament, that for the most part, only a 100 pool players are gonna see my product??

Bottom line is........once you get people "outside" of the pool world interested, the rest will fall into place. You won't be begging sponsors, they'll be begging you. You won't be begging room owners, they'll be coming to you.

Of course, this is no easy task, and I haven't the slightest how to change this.....hopefully someone has some ideas.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I understand your frustration. It is very much the same as mine.


Lets focus on raw numbers only.

The ATS system was created to combat this specific problem.


Lets say you have the Viking Tour and we have 100 players per event and we have 100 events. Lets also assume we have an additional 100 spectators per event. Over a year we only have 20,000 people to market to at events. For the sake of argument lets say our advertising reaches an additional 1 million people per year. Now we have 1,020,000 people being reached through our advertising.

NUT that still is not enough to bring in larger outside industry sponsors.

However, if we have 10 tours like the Viking Tour and all of them reach 1,020,000 we are now reaching 10 million people through billiards marketing and now we would have a shot at getting larger corporate sponsors.

Anyway, that is what we have in realistic numbers to work with and that is what my goal through the Associated Tournament System (ATS) is.

Right now everyone needs to forget about corporate sponsorship until we have a real product to sell them. My estimate puts this at 4-7 years away, conservatively if the ATS system takes off.
 
vapoolplayer said:
I'm going to have to agree to disagree. Until it becomes a spectator sport, I'm afraid pool is at the best its ever gonna get.

Not being a smartass, but can you name any successfull sport/game that doesn't at least have a large audience at home watching on t.v.?

Poker even has a large home audience.

Basically what you're saying is that the only people that the sponsors have to appeal to, is pool players. Thats way too small of a demographic to try to focus on. If I'm a sponsor, I can find a way better bang for my buck.

Thanks
Click to expand...


I agree that right now that is what the problem is but realistically what we have to work with is the FACT that pool right now is a participation sport and not a spectator sport.

We simply have to work within the reality of what is real right now to get to where we want the sport to be.
 
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