Added Money and Room Owners

MikeJanis said:
I understand your frustration. It is very much the same as mine.


Lets focus on raw numbers only.

The ATS system was created to combat this specific problem.


Lets say you have the Viking Tour and we have 100 players per event and we have 100 events. Lets also assume we have an additional 100 spectators per event. Over a year we only have 20,000 people to market to at events. For the sake of argument lets say our advertising reaches an additional 1 million people per year. Now we have 1,020,000 people being reached through our advertising.

NUT that still is not enough to bring in larger outside industry sponsors.

However, if we have 10 tours like the Viking Tour and all of them reach 1,020,000 we are now reaching 10 million people through billiards marketing and now we would have a shot at getting larger corporate sponsors.

Anyway, that is what we have in realistic numbers to work with and that is what my goal through the Associated Tournament System (ATS) is.

Right now everyone needs to forget about corporate sponsorship until we have a real product to sell them. My estimate puts this at 4-7 years away, conservatively if the ATS system takes off.



I agree with what you're trying to do.

Don't forget, when people look at numbers they look at "unique" numbers.

Say you have 100 people at an event, then the next event you have 100, but 80 of them are the same. You don't have 200 people, you have 120.

This is why you hear about pay per view events having "1 million unique viewers"

You have to show sponsors, that they are getting their product to as many "different" people as possible.

You can't show a product over and over to the same people who won't buy it and hope that one day they give in an say yes.

I still believe that something is going to have to happen to the game in general to make it more appealing to the average person.

Thanks
 
Lets back up to here and hit on the subject of spectators if we can.

vapoolplayer said:
I'm going to have to agree to disagree. Until it becomes a spectator sport, I'm afraid pool is at the best its ever gonna get.

Not being a smartass, but can you name any successfull sport/game that doesn't at least have a large audience at home watching on t.v.?

Poker even has a large home audience.

Basically what you're saying is that the only people that the sponsors have to appeal to, is pool players. Thats way too small of a demographic to try to focus on. If I'm a sponsor, I can find a way better bang for my buck.

Thanks



Basically what suggestion are out there to help bring spectators into pool tournament arenas ?


Here is a few tricks I have used in the past.

1. Advertise to assisted living locations. The retired people love to get out and many of them really love to watch the sport live and in person. Offer a senior discount whenever possible especially since most of them are on fixed incomes.
)This group fills the seats but is less marketable and they don't spend a lot at events.)

2. Contact the local new media, papers, radios and tv. For this to work you usually have to have something catchy like a Famous person in attendance at the event (Jeanette Lee is the best one I have had) or a BIG charity donation. We used to do this at the Greater Columbus Open in Ohio and it drew a ton of media.

3. Public television. Ads are real cheap and you can usually find a college student willing to help with filming.
(Fun to do but not much bang for the buck.)

4. Radio ads. You can make everything sound good on the radio.
They are a little pricey but not over the top and if you have a local room owner or local host location willing to work with you or a local sponsor this can be real cost effective. Here is the link to the last one we used with many thanks to Bob Moore from Breakers Sport Bar for setting it up. http://www.moli.com/x/media_album/v...6KMQ0cHgH-sDPPEEPCLsNBBHkRUMeXNOPK6Tibm93IwQQ

5. There are always goofy event promo's like this one that may or may not help get the word out about pool.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...46343&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab=Selling


What other ideas do you think could work ?

Also keep in mind that the more advertising an event does the higher the expenses are or less money will be added to the event. For the promoter it always comes down to how much am I willing to lose if things do not work out as planned. Risk -vs- reward.
 
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I think advertising to the community of players helps. We have a tournament at a local poolhall, and the last tournament had, I think 119 players and paid out (with 2 calcuttas), over $31,000. The players come out of the woodwork when the payout is good, and spectators come from a $100 radius. I think you would be hard pressed to be successful enticing any non-pool player to a large event, particularly if you charge an entry fee to do it, as is often the case. Backers, league players, etc. come where the action is. When this particular poolhall has their tournament, the other poolhalls are empty of other enthusiasts, but they still don't pull people who don't keep up regularly with the sport. If I were a person just looking to go out and have a good time and maybe shoot a few games of pool, and showed up where there is a big tournament going on, I would probably turn around and find another place to go.

You have to grow the potential pool of enthusiasts, and that is the hard part. Promotions, free cues/shirts/whatever, doesn't do that. There are two segments to the billiard scene, the players/enthusiasts and the weekend hackers who are going out to have a good time and shoot a few games. They are different customer bases. The hackers don't really care about the condition of the equipment, and don't really care if they ever see anyone run a table, period, but they are a potential steady source of income for a roomowner. The enthusiasts are the ones that show up to watch a tournament because the like the game and are not at the skill level to be competive in the tournament, and there are the gamblers who go where the action is.
 
MikeJanis said:
mapman72, is this the kind out of the box thinking you are looking for ?

For the 1st Time In The History Of Our Sport a 9-Ball Tournament is 4-Sale on Ebay

If you want to bring a great $3,000 added tournament to your local pool room this is your chance.

Highest bidder in 10 days wins.

1 - $3,000 Added Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour Event
This includes a $2K added Open and a $1K Added Amateur

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-3-000-Added-V...ryZ75194QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

New, innovative...Yeah, stuff like that! I bid $40.
 
vapoolplayer said:
OK, here goes.......this is probably gonna be a long read. I apolgize in advance, and would like to remind you that I'm not responsible for any injuries sustained if you fall asleep reading this and fall out of your chair.

I'll take one of your earlier posts on this topic Mike. You said that players need to eat/drink at the establishment, and to support sponsors by buying their products.

Not trying to offend, but, thats not the way to make money in sports/games. If this is the case, basically you'll just have a closed loop system, where sponsors and players put some money into pool, and they just keep trading it back and forth. This has happened for all of about eternity for pool.

The key is, to bring in outside money. Go to any pool tournament nowadays, except for a very, very select few, and count how many players there are. Now, count the spectators......which one do you think is higher? Normally its the players.

Now, put yourself in the players shoes. First we'll look at the financial side......you've already paid the entry fee, you're stayin a hotel possibly. So, you're already in your own pocket for a decent amount. Well, now I need to support the place by buying their food, and I need to support sponsors. There is a good chance I might not even make any money in this tournament, so I'm at a total loss. Well, since I know that I might not cash, I'm going to eat at the MCD dollar menu, and I'm not going to spend extra money on the sponsoring merchandise.

Now, lets look at the other issues some people have. They are playing, so they don't want to eat a lot and get sluggish. They want to play their best, so they don't drink alcohol.

So, lets face reality........pool PLAYERS are not going to support pool. It doesn't happen in any other sport/game. Except for maybe poker, I can give you the reasons why, but thats another topic.

Pool has been around a long long time. Lets look at a sport that hasn't. Lets take Mixed Martial Arts for example. Namely, the UFC. They have been around about 15 years or so. They have come a long way and now are a multi-million dollar company, and a lot of their participants do very well for themselves.

They don't ask their fighters to pay entry fees, they don't ask them to buy food/beverages at the shows, they don't ask them to support sponsors.

So, what do they have that pool doesn't????

SPECTATORS!!!!!

This is true for every sport that is successful. You CANNOT be financially successful without a spectator audience AND fanbase. Period, no way, no how, not gonna happen.

I hadn't thought of it, but you're right Mike, players make themselves too accessible to the public.

If the average Joe sees pool on t.v. they think "hell, I can go down the road and do that".

Pool needs a more "elite" image. It needs to be something special. It needs to not be BORING.

Again, lets face reality, watching the typical nine ball game is quite boring, even for someone that knows the ins and outs of pool.

Until the average person can look at pool and say "wow, i could never be that good" or "wow, those guys are amazing" then pool is gonna be in trouble financially.

What is the reason sponsors actually sponsor people or events? The answer is "audience". They know that there is going to be a large audience at the event, and an even larger audience at home watching it on t.v..

If I'm a sponsor, why am I going to put up money for a pool tournament, that for the most part, only a 100 pool players are gonna see my product??

Bottom line is........once you get people "outside" of the pool world interested, the rest will fall into place. You won't be begging sponsors, they'll be begging you. You won't be begging room owners, they'll be coming to you.

Of course, this is no easy task, and I haven't the slightest how to change this.....hopefully someone has some ideas.

Thanks

Great stuff. And I've given this some thought. I've seen what people are watching on TV and why they are watching it. Take poker for instance...why do people watch it. First, they can play the game and learn it quickly. I think what Mike is trying to do with his system is going to get more amateurs playing pool, for sure. So let's move on. Secondly, people watch poker because of the personalities. This is where pool screwed up. The "gentleman's game" concept has not allowed pool to mirror the modern day. I think of the most interesting accu-stats clip I've ever seen and it's the match between Ginky and Earl where they were fighting over the rack constantly. Now I didn't watch it to watch pool, I watched it to see the characters. I can't even remember who won the match. In the match, Earl is going ballistic as usual and Ginky is reserved...until he's had enough and he gives Earl a taste of his own medicine. To me that was interesting.

This is where pool has missed the boat. Instead of capitalizing on the big mouths, poor sports, idiots, jerks, and gentlemen, they've tried to portray all pool players as classy competitors. Anyone who has competed in a competitive tournament knows that this is the exception rather than the rule. Poker, on the other hand, has taken jerks like Mike "the mouth" and capitalized on their immaturity and personality. KT was on the right track, but still too reserved. Take the dress codes and get rid of them. Let pool players be themselves. If I want to play pool in an Iverson jersey, it's expressing who I am and people like that. Why should I be forced to dress like everyone else in the tournament, khakis and a polo, when that's not what I wear at my local pool room. If pool would have a business model similar to poker, it would work. And you notice, in poker, most of the tournaments don't have "added money". They have entry fees and numerous qualifying tournaments or satellites. If anyone is reading this and has a boatload of money, set some aside and talk with television executives about some real pool players and how interesting their stories are. I encourage the pool community to watch the WSOP broadcasts and everytime they cut away to a chat with a poker pro, imagine that pro being Shane, Rodney, or Keith giving their opinions about pool playing, gambling, tournaments, and their arch rivals. Pool is far too interesting and has too many characters to remain in the shadows.
 
Something else I thought of for spectators. I've been to a couple rooms with overhead cameras on a couple tables. One place in particular had a camera field in their restaurant section. So you could eat dinner over by the bar and watch the match between player x and player y. I think that might be a good idea for room owners trying to attract spectators.
 
yea

selftaut said:
Most room owners hope to break even during the tourney or lose just a little. They do it to promote the room mostly, but you are right that its getting harder to do for most room owners in this econemy.
DITTO!! SOME OF YOU PEOPLE THAT POST NEED TO OWN A ROOM FOR ONE YR!!!! THERE IS NO GOLD MINE HERE. IF YOU ARE SMALL AS I AM YOU STRUGGLE IN THE SUMMER!!! JUST CAN HARDLY HOLD MY ON WITH THE ECONEMEY AS IT IS. SO GET OF THE OWERNERS ASS, AND THROW A LITTLE EXTRA BUSSINESS FOR THEM!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
stick8 said:
DITTO!! SOME OF YOU PEOPLE THAT POST NEED TO OWN A ROOM FOR ONE YR!!!! THERE IS NO GOLD MINE HERE. IF YOU ARE SMALL AS I AM YOU STRUGGLE IN THE SUMMER!!! JUST CAN HARDLY HOLD MY ON WITH THE ECONEMEY AS IT IS. SO GET OF THE OWERNERS ASS, AND THROW A LITTLE EXTRA BUSSINESS FOR THEM!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Actually, you took that wrong. I'm saying that the room owner shouldn't have to add all the money, but if they do then be involved in the marketing. If you're not clearing any money on your tournies, does it make you feel better to say, "well that tour didn't get enough players in here"? Chances are no. So the spirit of this thread was to encourage creative thought, not to bash owners or tournament directors. We're all on the same team here, believe it or not. AND STOP SCREAMING WITH THE ALL CAPS!
 
Gonna have to agree with mapman here.

Take notice the other sports/games that have taken on recent popularity.

UFC, World Series of Poker, etc. They all have characters people love and hate.

The established sports....baseball, football, etc, have this too, but not on the same level. They were already established in another era.

Today's generation requires controversy to keep people interested. Who doesn't like to see someone talk trash, then get beat in the octagon? Who doesn't like to see Mike Matusow talk trash, then get beat with a huge bluff, or when he gets called on his own bluff after he's called the entire table stupid?

In turn, wouldn't someone like to see Earl talk trash to someone then just get wiped out?

You also have the people that like the "bad guys". They like to see it when someone talks trash, then wins.

Right now, if you watch pool on t.v. men or women's pool, you see two people who hardly talk, much less even look at the camera. They walk to the table with a bored blank look on their face, then shoot.

To an educated player, one understands this. But to someone who's just their to check it out, they aren't gonna stay interested long.

Case in point, a couple years ago, planet pool (now tiger) had a ring game tournament for charity. I believe mapman was at this one as well if I'm not mistaken.

I was on the table with keith, and a few other people I can't really recall. Even though there were several other tables that probably had a better group of overall talent, everyone was watching our table, because Keith kept it animated.

The rules didn't allow safety play, but it seemed like everytime Keith got to shoot, he was hooked. So, at one point, he's jacked up on the rail with a super tough long straight in shot. He fires the ball in, draws the rock back a few feet, dead nuts perfect. He looks at the guy and said "take that you safe playing <insert expletive>!!". Everyone laughed and was entertained.

So, I definitely agree with mapman about using the characters in pool.

In reading the "code of conduct" sticky, it makes me think that pool is trying to make everyone a carbon copy of this neat, nice, perfect looking pool player.

Well.....thats great....but BORING.

Thanks
 
Yes!

mapman72 said:
Great stuff. And I've given this some thought. I've seen what people are watching on TV and why they are watching it. Take poker for instance...why do people watch it. First, they can play the game and learn it quickly. I think what Mike is trying to do with his system is going to get more amateurs playing pool, for sure. So let's move on. Secondly, people watch poker because of the personalities. This is where pool screwed up. The "gentleman's game" concept has not allowed pool to mirror the modern day. I think of the most interesting accu-stats clip I've ever seen and it's the match between Ginky and Earl where they were fighting over the rack constantly. Now I didn't watch it to watch pool, I watched it to see the characters. I can't even remember who won the match. In the match, Earl is going ballistic as usual and Ginky is reserved...until he's had enough and he gives Earl a taste of his own medicine. To me that was interesting.

This is where pool has missed the boat. Instead of capitalizing on the big mouths, poor sports, idiots, jerks, and gentlemen, they've tried to portray all pool players as classy competitors. Anyone who has competed in a competitive tournament knows that this is the exception rather than the rule. Poker, on the other hand, has taken jerks like Mike "the mouth" and capitalized on their immaturity and personality. KT was on the right track, but still too reserved. Take the dress codes and get rid of them. Let pool players be themselves. If I want to play pool in an Iverson jersey, it's expressing who I am and people like that. Why should I be forced to dress like everyone else in the tournament, khakis and a polo, when that's not what I wear at my local pool room. If pool would have a business model similar to poker, it would work. And you notice, in poker, most of the tournaments don't have "added money". They have entry fees and numerous qualifying tournaments or satellites. If anyone is reading this and has a boatload of money, set some aside and talk with television executives about some real pool players and how interesting their stories are. I encourage the pool community to watch the WSOP broadcasts and everytime they cut away to a chat with a poker pro, imagine that pro being Shane, Rodney, or Keith giving their opinions about pool playing, gambling, tournaments, and their arch rivals. Pool is far too interesting and has too many characters to remain in the shadows.

I've said this before! Personalities and characters are what bring viewers. Pool has plenty of both! Road stories - we got 'em! Gambling - yep! Personailty clashes - you bet!

Poker is the biggest pyramid scheme around. For every winner there HAS to be a loser. Zero sum game at best.

I've spent a lot of thought on developing a plan to make Pool a sport that people can make a living playing. One of these days I'm going to try and put it all in a post here.

Food for thought though: pool needs to aspire to be like Bowling. Last season, the 50th ranked bowler on the PBA made $32K. There are only 12 pool players at or above that level and that list is mostly non-Americans.

They (the PBA) have got a solid regional tour system, regularly scheduled TV time and LOTS of sponsors.

Mapman, you've got a lot of good ideas. Mike Janis is working hard on a system very similar to what the PBA has in place. How do we put it all together and make something happen?

MM
 
MikeM said:
Mike Janis is working hard on a system very similar to what the PBA has in place. How do we put it all together and make something happen?

MM

Umm, well you could always stop playing in any non sanctioned ATS events but that would be a real bad idea right now. It would definitely be better if players talked to their TD's and asked them to join the ATS because they feel it is what future of our sport needs and the sooner we get there the better it will be for everyone or the players can start seeking out ATS sanctioned events and make sure that they are successful so other Tours and events are more willing to join the ATS.

It might be helpful to remind your local TD's that being in on the ground-floor of any potentially successful system has it's benefits.

The ATS is no longer a thought. It is off and running and picking up steam a little bit at a time. Just as it was designed to do.

Just a a few thoughts. Thanks for the props MikeM.
 
MikeM said:
Poker is the biggest pyramid scheme around. For every winner there HAS to be a loser.

Exactly right. This is another method that could be used for pool. The problem is, that in poker, there is always plenty of people ready to lose. That is not the case with pool.

The reason for this is because its much harder to prove to one's self they you suck at poker than at pool.

In poker, when someone takes your money, they got "lucky". In pool, its pretty obvious when the balls aren't going in the hole that you are no good at this game. Therefore people up and quite before they put a lot of money into this.

Its also a more accessible game for people to play, since it can be done at home and online.

So, again, pool is in a small paradox here. Its right in the middle.

Remember, everything is about image, either pool has to look like only a few elite people can do it, or it has to look like anyone can do it.

examples......baseball......people watch it because its something most people believe they cannot do that well.

poker......people watch and PAY A LOT to play it because they believe that anyone can get "lucky".

So, you have two directions you can go here, you can either do something to make pool seem like something only the "elite" can do, or make it something that anyone can get "lucky" and win a million dollars.

I know, its easier said than done, but as of right now, pool is on the 50 yard line, its hard enough that people don't want to pay to play it, and it doesn't have the image it needs to be interesting for people to watch.

Any ideas?

thanks
 
Well a friend of mine had (2) Pool Bar in the Phoenix Metro area in the early day of the Arizona Rating System. He retired over 10 years ago, but little he say has change in the Bar business.

For those of you who do not know most of the Tournaments in Arizona are Handicapped, with a Rating System that goes from a "4" Worst Player to "10-2" Best Player/Pro Caliber

Interesting of the 10-12 ,000+ Arizona Player in the Rating Book the percentages by Rating Number are like this?

4's - 3.51% Lowest Skill Level

5's - 32.25%

6's - 34.49%

7's - 19.23%

8's - 7.09% Best of the Worst

9's - 2.42% Worst of the Best

10's - 0.75%

10-1's - 0.21% Highest Skill level

My friend caterer his business to the Player with a 5's, 6's, and 7's Rating, as what he discover in his BAR these players who were 5's, 6's, and 7's where still spending money on "drinks", and thus he could have a Tournament for the Player of a Lesser Skill Level, and after counting the receipts from the Night still show a Profit.

So ALL his tournament were either 8's, 7's, and 6 and Under Tournaments as he still got a lots of 5, 6, or 7 Rated Players.

Who also bought beer, or Drinks, and as Dave has said to me many time. "I was in the booze business", and "booze paid the bills".

I personally understand the economics of running a successful business be it a Bar with a few Pool Tables, Sports Bar with Pool Tables, Full Blown Pool Room, or any business.

Before the door are open each day there are bills that go on, and must be paid.

Rent/Mortgage

Electric

Gas/Electric to Heat Water or run the A/C

Phone

Fax

Yellow page advertising

Insurance

Cleaning supplies

Food, Liquor, Beer, etc.

and the LIST GOES ON.

The Pool Player that say I dropped a Roll of Quarters in the Bar Box over a period of the evening, is just touching the surface of paying a very small part of the bills. If the Tables are LEASED, well maybe 40-50 of those Quarter go to the Bar.

If you have a room, or bar that is a good place to play, and they have added money tournaments count you blessings. If not ask the owner why, and most will tell you why.










Also the smart business owner does a few thing to keep people come back to their business, they greet customer, and make them feel welcome, and some times say than for coming, and hope to see you soon again. Their staff does the same, as it help get repeat business. Why go some where where you don't get a hi, or thank you. Wal-Mart's greaters welcome you, and say thank for shopping Wal-Mart, not a bad idea Sam Walton had.
 
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