added money, green fees, guaranteed money, yadda yadda

[silvr rcr]

I'm not sure if this topic has been covered here in the past, but either way, I'd like some feedback on a couple of things;

First is on green fees and added money. now dont shake your head and say 'oh not again', because i know SOMETHING like this has been covered. I know rooms usually take green fees and as well they should, then take the green fees and add them back in for the 'added money' in events, but I've seen a question come up a few times to tournament directors and promoters asking if they were truly ADDING x amount to the tournament, or just adding the green fees back, plus what ever amount is needed to meet the added money total, which ultimately is the same thing if you really think about it....

Is this something thats really that confusing for people?
has there ever been a situation where the room/TD/Promoter will add the x amount to the prize fund PLUS the green fees?

I've never heard of this happening and really I think it would be ridiculous to expect such a thing. Rooms arent there to give away money, theyre there to make money, right?

Its amazing to me that people want great events, but dont want the people who put on such great events to make anything off of it (tournament directors, promotors, room owners, etc), nooooo, all money has to go back into the prize fund. BS.



Next, guaranteed, added and guaranteed added.
Hypothetical situation*
I'll admit, I'm still new to pool and tournaments and such, i've been playing a little more than 3 years, but I recently made the mistake of confusing guaranteed and added.
the event was a team event, 100 per team, 50 green fee, the room owner was to put 500 into the event, no matter how many teams showed up. if you get 10 teams, you break even, if you get the max - 12, you make $100 that could be tossed in to the prize fund, making it 600 added, or pay the tournament director something, whatever.
not rocket surgery/brain science

Well the event flopped, 3 teams showed up, 300 in the pot, 150 in green fees, so the room owner was supposed to add 350 to make it a total of 800.

the room owner shows up, sees that there are 3 teams and then hands the tournament director $150.
with a confused look, the td asks where's the other 200?
the shit hit the fan and arguments started, yadda yadda.
the room owner claimed that he would GUARANTEE $500.
It was at this point that I realized what the difference in guaranteed money and added money was, meaning he would add whatever back to make THE POT a total of that amount, where everyone expected that amount added (whether it included the green fees or not).

The tournament director was looking for $500 GUARANTEED ADDED to the tournament, not 'added based on x teams'.

But lets step back for a second and do some math. WHY ON EARTH would someone want to set the guaranteed amount at $500 with the entry/greens being what they were?
two problems with that.
a. at 4 teams, then you've reached your guaranteed number, plus 100 and
b. every team after that just adds $50 to the house's pocket, because who says the green fees have to be added back in? IF it were a guaranteed 500 event, the room owner did what he said he would, guaranteed $500 in the prize fund.

make sense?

but had there been 4 or more teams and the situation stayed at guaranteed 500, there'd have been some pissed off pool players.

so either the house understood what was requested (gtd added) and wanted to try to flip it so they were out less money (gtd), or just didnt understand how badly it would have looked if more than 3 teams showed up for a 500 gtd tournament..

moral:
understand terminology, get everything in writing and signed, take up another hobby.



thoughts?

 

[mr.que]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f_nW3Thff8

 

[CarlB]

Nice post...I like it. It is on the players to get education on what things mean, and at the same time be able to hold the owners accountable for what they advertise.

before you play in any tournament...be sure you KNOW what is being offered.

Carl

 

[inside_english]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f_nW3Thff8

LOL, I love bad acting...

 

[inside_english]

Nice post...I like it. It is on the players to get education on what things mean, and at the same time be able to hold the owners accountable for what they advertise.

before you play in any tournament...be sure you KNOW what is being offered.

Carl

I could not agree more.
I run monthly tournaments here in Maryland at one local room.

We charge a $45 entry fee, with $5 for green fees.
The rest of the money is paid out so there is no mystery as to how the money is distributed, or where it goes etc.

Sometimes one of the local players adds money because he is just a nice guy that way, so the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places vary slightly from month to month.

It is his money, so he can certainly determine how/where it is distributed in the payouts.

Even with all of this as clear as it could be, I have STILL had the payout amounts questioned by one player, who is notorious for questioning every dollar amount at every tournament!

Anyway, the OP is right...it is the responsibility of the room owner to clearly establish how the money will be distributed.

If the TD is not the room owner, then both parties had better be in full agreement, because when Game Day approaches, the last thing anyone wants to see, especially players...is the TD and the room owner having any kind of dispute regarding money.

In the already un-trusting, suspicious world of pool, that leaves people with a bad feeling...and worse, it discourages future participation. And yes, pool players talk...and bad news travels fast.

You get the picture...

 

[mikepage]

I'm not sure if this topic has been covered here in the past, but either way, I'd like some feedback on a couple of things;

First is on green fees and added money. now dont shake your head and say 'oh not again', because i know SOMETHING like this has been covered. I know rooms usually take green fees and as well they should, then take the green fees and add them back in for the 'added money' in events, [...]

I think we should keep the "green fee" and "added money" concepts separate. The left hand is taking green fees. The right hand is adding money.

I am an example of someone you might consider taking with the left hand while giving with the right hand. But there is a rhyme and reason to it.

For our summer shootout coming up in June, we have an 8-ball tournament:

We advertise it as,

$2500 added
$60 entry (includes $10 green fee)

This means there is $50 from each entry in the prize fund and $2500 on top of that.

You might say that if I get 100 players, thus generating $1000 in green fees, am I not REALLY just adding $1500?

I say the answer is no. There is a subtlety here, and the subtlety stems from the PURPOSE of advertising added money.

The added money is a "players' insurance policy." There is always a risk that turnout is poor, whether it's because of lack of interest, weather, competing events, of any of a number of other reasons. Without added money, low turnout means paltry prize fund. A player that commits to a tournament without added money is assuming the risk that nobody will show up. Added money shifts that risk to the promoter, i.e., takes it away from the player.

So for our summer shootout, if ONE player shows up, We would use a two-player double elimination bracket with one bye ;-), and the payout to that one player would be $2550.

If 8 players show up, the payout is $400 + $2500 = $2900

If 128 players show up, the payout is $6400 + $2500 = $8900

In other words, the added money is a much more important part of the prize fund when the turnout is low.

By the way, we don't make money running our big tournaments. Our goal is to run great events while losing a palatable amount.

So no, the $10 green fee is not really feeding that $2500. That $2500 is always there, and the $50 per player is added to it.
__________________

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Nice post...I like it. It is on the players to get education on what things mean, and at the same time be able to hold the owners accountable for what they advertise.

before you play in any tournament...be sure you KNOW what is being offered.

Carl

I agree, Afghan.

 

[silvr rcr]

So here are the real questions here:

Is this something thats really that confusing for people?
has there ever been a situation where the room/TD/Promoter will add the x amount to the prize fund PLUS the green fees?

I've never heard of this happening and really I think it would be ridiculous to expect such a thing. Rooms arent there to give away money, theyre there to make money, right?

are the people who are expecting greenfees AND added money expecting such because its something theyve seen before, that happens more often than not? or do they just want to stir the pot and try to figure out a way to A. get people pissed at the promoter/td/room owner or B. try to haggle in more money to the event or C. theyre just idiots?

Next, guaranteed, added and guaranteed added.
Hypothetical situation*
I'll admit, I'm still new to pool and tournaments and such, i've been playing a little more than 3 years, but I recently made the mistake of confusing guaranteed and added.
the event was a team event, 100 per team, 50 green fee, the room owner was to put 500 into the event, no matter how many teams showed up. if you get 10 teams, you break even, if you get the max - 12, you make $100 that could be tossed in to the prize fund, making it 600 added, or pay the tournament director something, whatever.
not rocket surgery/brain science

Well the event flopped, 3 teams showed up, 300 in the pot, 150 in green fees, so the room owner was supposed to add 350 to make it a total of 800.

the room owner shows up, sees that there are 3 teams and then hands the tournament director $150.
with a confused look, the td asks where's the other 200?
the shit hit the fan and arguments started, yadda yadda.
the room owner claimed that he would GUARANTEE $500.
It was at this point that I realized what the difference in guaranteed money and added money was, meaning he would add whatever back to make THE POT a total of that amount, where everyone expected that amount added (whether it included the green fees or not).

The tournament director was looking for $500 GUARANTEED ADDED to the tournament, not 'added based on x teams'.

But lets step back for a second and do some math. WHY ON EARTH would someone want to set the guaranteed amount at $500 with the entry/greens being what they were?
two problems with that.
a. at 4 teams, then you've reached your guaranteed number, plus 100 and
b. every team after that just adds $50 to the house's pocket, because who says the green fees have to be added back in? IF it were a guaranteed 500 event, the room owner did what he said he would, guaranteed $500 in the prize fund.

make sense?

but had there been 4 or more teams and the situation stayed at guaranteed 500, there'd have been some pissed off pool players.

so either the house understood what was requested (gtd added) and wanted to try to flip it so they were out less money (gtd), or just didnt understand how badly it would have looked if more than 3 teams showed up for a 500 gtd tournament...

not a lot of response on this part, but how many people do you see misunderstand the guaranteed and added money thing?

is added often understood as an open statement like 'added based on...' or only when 'based on x players' is after it?
i would say "GUARANTEED ADDED" would be a better term to use to leave less confusion, so that no matter one x amount is guaranteed added to the event. is that a term thats widely used?

i think in my future tournament agreements with room owners I want to put in these terms as definitions of sorts, so the room owner will KNOW what theyre putting up and will have no way of wiggling out of it if the pot gets hot.

 

[RunoutJJ]

It' all and in how you advertise...

If the event has money that is GUARANTEED than no matter how many players show up that money WILL be there regardless..

Now ADDED money is a loose term... You can advertise 500 or 1000 ADDED but there is no GUARANTEE that that full amount will be added. You have to think of it from the establishments perspective. If their gonna shell out a good chunk of money they want it to spur business all around... Not put them out of business. So if the owner is willing to pay that large amount on a FULL FIELD its the promoters responsibilty to promote it that way.

As a promoter ive had to deal with all sorts of owners and business people alike... The first tournamenti hosted i asked the owner for 1000 knowing that the place would make at least 2000 but the owner never did any type of business with me before so.... I only got 300 but... i took no money away from the players and got a huge turn out and things were good. After showing the owner i could pack his place with players and spectators he was more willing to shell out more money at future events.

Money just doesnt come from nowhere and you have to remember that people dont work for free!! Owners and promoters alike!! Most promoters that i know take a decent amount of money for their efforts. The problem resided in the promoters that STEAL from the players. Not only stealing money but the players trust in the promoters.

WE all know who these people are but the point is there are a lot of good hearted decent promoters out there that give a lot to their players. Mike Zulgan is one of if not the best promoter ive had the pleasure of meeting..

All in all say what you mean and mean what you say. Dont mislead the players otherwise you will lose them and their trust. Not to mention kill whatever pool scene you have in your area