"Added Monies"

G

Grady

Pro Player
I read with interest Shannon's intention to have $25,000 in added money in Nov. I hope that he understands what exactly constitutes "Added Money". It means $25,000 plus every entry fee, not one nickel taken out for green fees or anything else. Most of his predecessors with regional tours don't get that.
I intend to be in his corner but I do not wish to see bogus added money advertised. I would also feel much better if this purported added money were put in escrow. I have always said that if you're going to pay off, you're not offended at being asked to put up.
 
I agree Grady. The only problem with escrow is the cash it costs to do so.
That coupled with all the time and effort to place it in escrow and there should be an easier way to verify that the funds will be there.

Danny
 
Grady said:
I read with interest Shannon's intention to have $25,000 in added money in Nov. I hope that he understands what exactly constitutes "Added Money". It means $25,000 plus every entry fee, not one nickel taken out for green fees or anything else. Most of his predecessors with regional tours don't get that.
I intend to be in his corner but I do not wish to see bogus added money advertised. I would also feel much better if this purported added money were put in escrow. I have always said that if you're going to pay off, you're not offended at being asked to put up.
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I would disagree with the first part of your post about the added money. It has always been my understanding that green fees were taken out. For example: if they tourney fee was $65 ($50 for entry and $15 for green fee) and there were 20 players with $25,000 added then the total purse would be $26,000 [($50 x 20) + $25,000]. The way that you stated means that the room doesn't get any green fees which is not correct. It is only a small monetary difference either way.

When I use to have added money tourneys I took the green fees for having the tourney and then put the added money back in the purse. The room has to at least cover the table time lost for the tournament and then if they or other sponsors choose to add money then that is seperate.
 
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It's a matter of semantics

You can't call it added money if you take out green fees and other things.
Just leave the word added out of it and it's ok. Otherwise it's an insult to promoters like me who really "add" monies.
Case in point: I went to a $1,500 added event in Chelmsford, MA because I was in the neighborhood and also I thought I might get some action. This came at a time when I had just lost over $10,000 on a tournament but I paid every nickel of my advertised "added" money. I get there and I look at the prize money breakdown and it just looked smallish. I did the math and sure enough it was $400 added.That's all I have to say. I'm still really angry about this type of cheating
 
corvette1340 said:
I would disagree with the first part of your post about the added money. It has always been my understanding that green fees were taken out. For example: if they tourney fee was $65 ($50 for entry and $15 for green fee) and there were 20 players with $25,000 added then the total purse would be $26,000 [($50 x 20) + $25,000]. The way that you stated means that the room doesn't get any green fees which is not correct. It is only a small monetary difference either way.

When I use to have added money tourneys I took the green fees for having the tourney and then put the added money back in the purse. The room has to at least cover the table time lost for the tournament and then if they or other sponsors choose to add money then that is seperate.
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They can have greens fees-just shouldnt include what surely wll be taken out in the 'added' money. What if was $5k in greens fees?. The Players should know exactly what they are competing for before the tournament besides each others entry fes.

Maybe the BCA or some other entity could be useful and establish some unform definitions for these terms, ie "guaranteed', "added" etc.
 
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Grady,

For a tournament with a fixed known number of entries, I agree it makes no sense to take out a green fee only to want credit for adding it back to the prize fund as added money.

But many regional tournaments are not in that situation, and for them and for most smaller events it makes sense to do as we frequently see done.

If I advertise a $1000-added, $50 entry, with $10 greens fee tournament, then that means the prize fund should be $1000 + $40 times the number of entries. To understand why I think there's nothing wrong here, please try to understand what I see as the primary purpose of advertised added money.

I see the added $$ as a guarantee to players who might travel or forgo another event that there will be a respectable payout even if the turnout is poor. The promoter is taking on the downside risk.


Grady said:
I read with interest Shannon's intention to have $25,000 in added money in Nov. I hope that he understands what exactly constitutes "Added Money". It means $25,000 plus every entry fee, not one nickel taken out for green fees or anything else. Most of his predecessors with regional tours don't get that.
I intend to be in his corner but I do not wish to see bogus added money advertised. I would also feel much better if this purported added money were put in escrow. I have always said that if you're going to pay off, you're not offended at being asked to put up.
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I gotta agree with Grady here

Seems like there are always events that are $1000 added or $500 added that take $5-10 for greens fees. In reality they are not "ADDING" $1000.
I don't even agree with Greens Fees most of the time but don't mind a little fee going to the director. Most of these events are not held during the Rooms busy times. Bringing in 50-100 people is a blessing.
 
I have played many of Shannon's events and can explain it as I understand it. It is a $100 entry fee of which $30 is the green fee. The added money will not be touched but $30 of every $100 entry fee is the greens fee. That is how I understand it, just as $20 of every $50 entry fee is a greens fee in his regular tourneys. Hope this makes sense or you may contact him directly with the listed number in the article. I'm sure he will be glad to answer any questions.
 
fasteddienc said:
I have played many of Shannon's events and can explain it as I understand it. It is a $100 entry fee of which $30 is the green fee. The added money will not be touched but $30 of every $100 entry fee is the greens fee. That is how I understand it, just as $20 of every $50 entry fee is a greens fee in his regular tourneys. Hope this makes sense or you may contact him directly with the listed number in the article. I'm sure he will be glad to answer any questions.
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I think Grady's point is (and I couldnt agree more), if its "added" money... then its on top of entry fees, not whatever is left over with the entry fees after the bills get paid.

I never understood how people claimed they were "adding" money, yet the payout all came from entry fees. There is nothing "added" about that.
 
frankncali said:
I gotta agree with Grady here

Seems like there are always events that are $1000 added or $500 added that take $5-10 for greens fees. In reality they are not "ADDING" $1000.
I don't even agree with Greens Fees most of the time but don't mind a little fee going to the director. Most of these events are not held during the Rooms busy times. Bringing in 50-100 people is a blessing.
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I dont agree. I think the room should always get something for holding an event. Yes, it may bring in 50-100 people, but its 50-100 people that arent doing much for the room. At least in the tournaments I play in, I dont see the bar getting too much business from people trying to win a tournament.

I would much rather see the room taking $10-15 per entry and hosting more tournaments and leaving the "added" money up to sponsors of the tour.
 
Grady,

As the TC/TD for a WPBA sanctioned tour for 9 years, I had to get *that* idea, no questions. The WPBA had rules to that effect until it got muddled in the past couple years.

Now, it's "Everything Goes".

Barbara~~~still has the books open for scrutiny, whatever :)

Grady said:
I read with interest Shannon's intention to have $25,000 in added money in Nov. I hope that he understands what exactly constitutes "Added Money". It means $25,000 plus every entry fee, not one nickel taken out for green fees or anything else. Most of his predecessors with regional tours don't get that.
I intend to be in his corner but I do not wish to see bogus added money advertised. I would also feel much better if this purported added money were put in escrow. I have always said that if you're going to pay off, you're not offended at being asked to put up.
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Well what if it was worded like this. $25000 added. $100 entry fee of which $30 of the "entry fee" not added money goes to the house for table time? Then the room owners get money back from the entry fee, right?

Southpaw
 
I think green fees are fine, as long as they are clearly stated in the advertisements. If the tournament you went to with the 1500 added, did not state they were taking anything out of the fees, then only paid 400 added, I would think they would not be hosting many tournaments as the players would find somewhere else to play.
 
Well when I ran a tour, it really didn't matter about whose monies the greens fees were taken from. The monies were added up and the RO was paid greens fees.

Bottom line was, I NEVER took any money form the prize fund, and that's what Grady's getting at, TDs taking monies from the prize fund, and not getting paid directly from the room.

Barbara

Southpaw said:
Well what if it was worded like this. $25000 added. $100 entry fee of which $30 of the "entry fee" not added money goes to the house for table time? Then the room owners get money back from the entry fee, right?

Southpaw
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??? Where do you put the "golden green fees" then!!!!

OK. Let me see if I understand this correctly. The consesus is added money should come strait from the till of the business. Right? Well, I agree with that. But what are you gonna do with the green fees then?
Do you see what Im asking????
If a tourney is charging a 10.00 green fee, and there are say 60 players. Then the 600.00 in green fees goes in the till of the business. And the business(house) turns around and ADDS what they advertised. Right? So, if a house adds say 1500.00, then thats what they add. Yes, they are getting the 600 from green fees. But its a push. They are actually adding the 1500. So, I really dont get what some of you are saying. What do you expect them to do with the green fees??
Just asking because I really am confused. LOL
 
Barbara said:
Well when I ran a tour, it really didn't matter about whose monies the greens fees were taken from. The monies were added up and the RO was paid greens fees.

Bottom line was, I NEVER took any money form the prize fund, and that's what Grady's getting at, TDs taking monies from the prize fund, and not getting paid directly from the room.

Barbara
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I just feel that the room owners should get the green fees to help make up for lost money since they cannot rent out their table for 2 days. Now if the players and spectators would eat there and drink there, then that would help the room also, but as everyone knows, most people will eat out instead of eating in a poolroom. JMO

Southpaw
 
cleary said:
I dont agree. I think the room should always get something for holding an event. Yes, it may bring in 50-100 people, but its 50-100 people that arent doing much for the room. At least in the tournaments I play in, I dont see the bar getting too much business from people trying to win a tournament.

I would much rather see the room taking $10-15 per entry and hosting more tournaments and leaving the "added" money up to sponsors of the tour.
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I respect your opinion and its the same as many others. Maybe if I had a room then I would think differently.
I do see that most rooms don't try and do alot with their events. Years ago in the south the rooms had mini's for a few nights beforehand. Many times they scheduled a week apart from another local or semi local place and tried to get some players there for the week.

If the green fee is charged then at least change the wording about Added money.
When I do tounaments I state the paybacks with a full field , half field etc.
I don't a problem putting money towards an end of the year event or to the director of the event.

Most of the mini tours I have seen are clear cut as to what the entry and fees are.
 
This is all I have to say about this.

Look, I don't care any more how these regional tours structure their events but they can't claim added money if they take out green fees, table time or charge by the game.
In Shannon's case, this new ad claiming $25,000 in added money makes it awfully hard for other promoters to compete and the fall is the best time of year for tournaments.
Ok, added money, again, while the purview of the promoter, has to be every nickel of said funds over and above entry fees. Otherwise, just leave the word added out of things and you'll never hear a word from ol' Grad'. Another way to shut me up is to post up all this "added" money.
 
Milo said:
OK. Let me see if I understand this correctly. The consesus is added money should come strait from the till of the business. Right? Well, I agree with that. But what are you gonna do with the green fees then?
Do you see what Im asking????
If a tourney is charging a 10.00 green fee, and there are say 60 players. Then the 600.00 in green fees goes in the till of the business. And the business(house) turns around and ADDS what they advertised. Right? So, if a house adds say 1500.00, then thats what they add. Yes, they are getting the 600 from green fees. But its a push. They are actually adding the 1500. So, I really dont get what some of you are saying. What do you expect them to do with the green fees??
Just asking because I really am confused. LOL
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I think this is fine, so long as everything is disclosed up front.

Grady would say the tournament wasn't really $1500 added. It was $900 added. I don't agree with this.

Grady I believe thinks this view helps the players, but I don't agree. Suppose in your example the RO anticipated 60 players, so to satisfy Grady he advertised it as a $50 entry, $900 added tournament with no green fee. That's exactly the same thing as your example [$1500 added, $50 entry, $10 green fee].

But the reason I see it as less player friendly is if only 20 players showed up, the "true (net) added money" scenario would have a $1900 payout pot, whereas the added money plus green fee scenario would have a $2300 payout pot.

This--a small turnout--is the risk for the players. And the player-friendly policy of combining a modest green fee with a larger added $$ is the good one, imo.
 
Southpaw said:
I just feel that the room owners should get the green fees to help make up for lost money since they cannot rent out their table for 2 days. Now if the players and spectators would eat there and drink there, then that would help the room also, but as everyone knows, most people will eat out instead of eating in a poolroom. JMO

Southpaw
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Unless they are losing night time business I doubt they are losing much in table rentals. All of that would be made up. Extra help would be the one area that would be different than normal.

If its an APA event I would bet that they make more than normal by far. Thats my pet peeve here with a bar. Twice I have had events there and both times the bar did at least 4x their normal amount. He adds $2 a player thats it. Both events were over 50 players. He said that on a normal Saturday day that he would do about 150-200 until 6. I know two guys at each event that had $100 bar tabs.
Its all just a differnce of opinion. As long as everything is clearly stated then its all good. And I can't remember seeing one that wasnt clear.
 
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