advice for hitting this draw shot?

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the reply fran
There's one more thing I want to mention, and that is stop and stun shot speeds are supposed to vary, based on several variables -- one for example: How much of a pocket you can see. If it's a shot near the rail where the pocket is partially obstructed, then hitting the ball lower and softer to stop it is better to avoid jawing the pocket. You shouldn't think in terms of having a stop shot speed, because in real play, that's not practical. You have to adapt to what's in front of you. So if the pocket is partially blocked, it should also affect your drawback decisions as well.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
just to clarify, Fran
for me, there is no one speed for stopshot speed.
It’s whatever will produce a stopshot based on distance and tip placement.
And of course, I don’t do it blindly
in your conditions that you describe above.
If I saw on fast cloth, I was getting more than one diamond with my tip position. I would not lower it as much. For example.
I try and pay attention to how the balls are reacting while I play and adjust accordingly
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
just to clarify, Fran
for me, there is no one speed for stopshot speed.
It’s whatever will produce a stopshot based on distance and tip placement.
And of course, I don’t do it blindly
in your conditions that you describe above.
If I saw on fast cloth, I was getting more than one diamond with my tip position. I would not lower it as much. For example.
I try and pay attention to how the balls are reacting while I play and adjust accordingly
Thanks for the reply.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Cloth conditions will affect the consistency of your theory. For example, if it's raining outside and the cloth is damp, your normal stop shot tip placement might not be affected because although the cb may slide more on the damp cloth, it won't change the result of your stop shot. However, dropping down a tip to get one diamond draw on a damp table probably won't be enough. In that case you would either need to increase speed, which could endanger the ball pocketing aspect, or place the tip lower than you calculated --- and often times, even both.

The opposite holds true for a newer cloth. Although your normal tip placement may be adequate for a stop shot, you may find on a newer cloth that the cb will draw back farther than you expect.

There are other cloth conditions that affect draw shots as well, like cloth that became loose over time, or not pulled tight enough at installation. Worn cloth, nappy cloth, the list goes on....

If you can find a way to add and subtract based on cloth conditions it may work, but nothing beats feel in this type of situation. Learning to develop your feel for shots in varying conditions is really the more reliable way to go.

The player who s able to adjust faster to given conditions has the necessary advantage to win matches/tournaments.

Not long ago Bustamente was in my club for an exhibition- next to the really nice feeling it gave me (good ole days.... lmao)- and seeing him again after a long time, it was just spectacular. I m sure, most don t even realised his greatness. 5 minutes warm up on a really tough table- new conditions. But he opened his bank pool game with a 4 pack....with the 5th rattling in the pocket.

That s what it s about. Few shots, adjusting after noticing the "new conditions"- and go for it. That s what world class players are able to.
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
had two shots come up in today's session that I sometimes hit well, but today hit poorly
and I realized I'm just kind of winging it on them..for the draw I usually hit the same place on the cb, but not as firm
I've experimented with hitting the draw higher up and more firm, but I don't gravitate towards that way..should I?

any advice appreciated..enclosing an 8-ball diagram of the draw shot that I ended up getting hooked on
I also missed position on a similar shot with follow, too long for force follow- I think I just hit too high
Why didn't you just shoot a stop shot and then the 8 in the upper side pocket?
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why didn't you just shoot a stop shot and then the 8 in the upper side pocket?
that wasn't there.
I remember I could have rolled up on the 12 with the cb for the 8 in the side, but I didn't like it
I'm not sure how well the diagram told the tale..but I don't think it matters much now
vision is elemental, but in this situation, the draw shot was more teachable
thanks for the reply-
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
just to clarify, Fran
for me, there is no one speed for stopshot speed.
It’s whatever will produce a stopshot based on distance and tip placement.
And of course, I don’t do it blindly
in your conditions that you describe above.
If I saw on fast cloth, I was getting more than one diamond with my tip position. I would not lower it as much. For example.
I try and pay attention to how the balls are reacting while I play and adjust accordingly
Old trick, jack the cue with the shooting hand slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY and aim halfway between center c.b. and absolute bottom of the c.b. -- works wonders for stop over a variety of distances.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Old trick, jack the cue with the shooting hand slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY and aim halfway between center c.b. and absolute bottom of the c.b. -- works wonders for stop over a variety of distances.
In other words, raise the butt slightly and use maximum draw.

That works for one distance and stroke speed. What makes you think it works for more than that?

Edit: Sorry if my question above isn't clear. What I mean to ask is: how does a slightly raised butt and maximum draw work for a wider range of shots?

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
In other words, raise the butt slightly and use maximum draw.

That works for one distance and stroke speed. What makes you think it works for more than that?

Edit: Sorry if my question above isn't clear. What I mean to ask is: how does a slightly raised butt and maximum draw work for a wider range of shots?

pj
chgo
I'm suggesting the stroke for stop and stun shots, not draw shots.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Range of speed = range of shots... regardless of the particular technique.
Yes, that's my (poorly made) point.

For a given tip placement (maximum low in this case, according to Matt) you can hit stop shots at different distances using different stroke speeds, with the butt raised or not. So why is it specified that the butt should be raised?

pj
chgo
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, that's my (poorly made) point.

For a given tip placement (maximum low in this case, according to Matt) you can hit stop shots at different distances using different stroke speeds, with the butt raised or not. So why is it specified that the butt should be raised?

pj
chgo
If I remember correctly it's something Nick Varner taught him or maybe it was Mosconi. They were very close you know.
BTW, at times physics ceases to exist on 007's pool table. As long as you jack up slightly and hit where he says then the CB will stop. Speed and distance don't matter.
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
Yes, that's my (poorly made) point.

For a given tip placement (maximum low in this case, according to Matt) you can hit stop shots at different distances using different stroke speeds, with the butt raised or not. So why is it specified that the butt should be raised?

pj
chgo
ah. whoosh.

honestly, i think he just threw in an unneeded detail. he says raise butt slightly and stresses slightly. kinda wonder how much more this would be than the slight angle to the cue when cueing low as we rarely ever get level.

The only benefit I can see to some elevation is that it will cause some imperceptible hopping that prevents the drag from the cloth working for the full time the CB is traveling so it won't pick up forward roll as quickly and therefore make it easier to actually stop the ball.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Yes, that's my (poorly made) point.

For a given tip placement (maximum low in this case, according to Matt) you can hit stop shots at different distances using different stroke speeds, with the butt raised or not. So why is it specified that the butt should be raised?

pj
chgo
I didn't write "different stroke speeds" I wrote WORKS WONDERS.

Suggestion: Hit a few stop shots, over different distances, with your personal choices for speed/grip force/cue angle/varying vertical axis spots, then reduce variables to a SLIGHTLY elevated cue stick on the spot I suggest, and see if your control increases on these shots.

As an aside, it was Nick Varner who showed me this method. Under the intense pressure of competition, he felt this method was highly reliable.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
If I remember correctly it's something Nick Varner taught him or maybe it was Mosconi. They were very close you know.
BTW, at times physics ceases to exist on 007's pool table. As long as you jack up slightly and hit where he says then the CB will stop. Speed and distance don't matter.
1) I NEVER wrote "speed and distance don't matter". I like to play around with theories and concepts, sure, but when I teach, I teach from geometry, physics and anatomy. My methods alarm some people, but work well.

2) I offer you a free two-hour lesson so you can go from holding on to bad assumptions about me to understanding me, and benefiting from my pool knowledge. Let's forget about the past and move ahead together, as friends. I can overlook the past things said and done.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
To answer the original question:

You need to practice your precision draw. Here is a drill that will help. Put the nine ball frozen to the cushion on the foot rail a diamond from a corner pocket. Put the one ball near that corner pocket. With cue ball in hand, pocket the one ball and draw the cue ball into the nine ball, knocking it generally towards the other foot pocket. Place the two ball by the first pocket, about like you did for the one ball. With cue ball in hand, shoot in the two ball and draw the cue ball to bump the nine towards the other foot pocket. Continue until you pocket the nine ball in that other foot pocket. Consider the try a success if you don't abandon it due to knocking the nine ball to an unrecoverable position.

Another great drill for precision draw is Mosconi's ring-around-the-side drill, which should be played as a progressive practice.

But I think the first thing for the OP to do is to find a good instructor who will tell him something memorable about fixing his fundamentals:
hi bob, I took a two hour lesson back in november, but I don't know how revealing it was about my fundamentals
good reminder tho, I have it recorded..I'll check back in with it, see if I can't learn/affirm anything ...
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You need to practice your precision draw. Here is a drill that will help. Put the nine ball frozen to the cushion on the foot rail a diamond from a corner pocket. Put the one ball near that corner pocket. With cue ball in hand, pocket the one ball and draw the cue ball into the nine ball, knocking it generally towards the other foot pocket. Place the two ball by the first pocket, about like you did for the one ball. With cue ball in hand, shoot in the two ball and draw the cue ball to bump the nine towards the other foot pocket. Continue until you pocket the nine ball in that other foot pocket. Consider the try a success if you don't abandon it due to knocking the nine ball to an unrecoverable position.

thanks bob, this sounds like a fun, telling drill. I'll def give it a try.

Another great drill for precision draw is Mosconi's ring-around-the-side drill, which should be played as a progressive practice.

I've done this one a few times- I've had rounds where I got through it easily, and then not ^_^
precision clearly makes it easier to get through (like any pool rack, I guess..)

But I think the first thing for the OP to do is to find a good instructor who will tell him something memorable about fixing his fundamentals:

there is one sort of-local person I'm interested in working with- I'll move forward with that. thanks again.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Why elevated?

pj <- same question, different day
chgo
I can think of several different reasons, but for teaching, I like move from theory (argumentation) to action (results).

Hit a few shots as suggested and tell me (us) why you think it's efficient (or inefficient).
 
Top