I wonder how close the Alpha is to a mcdermott I-2? They sound like very similar designs. I am sure the mezz is higher quality but I'd be curious about the hit and feel. I wish the WD700 was just a tad thicker, as I would prefer a shaft closer to 13mm than 12.5.
Advice on shafts with low throw?
- Thread starter Zieglermt
- Start date
I wonder how close the Alpha is to a mcdermott I-2? They sound like very similar designs. I am sure the mezz is higher quality but I'd be curious about the hit and feel. I wish the WD700 was just a tad thicker, as I would prefer a shaft closer to 13mm than 12.5.
No I'm pretty sure he meant throw. He clearly believes that a Z2 for example spins the ball more than a 13mm solid maple shaft. He stated that the "extra" spin throws the ball too much.
KMRUNOUT
I grew up around the drag strip... Seems we have as many bench racers here on AZ as we had in the pits... You know the guys with the 6 second street cars.... As soon as they got around to building them that is....
I would tell you to swap tips before you swap shafts... Something with a harder durometer reading and especially higher COR... Less contact time should give you less throw.. At least from a practical standpoint.... no telling what it will do in the lab or in a vacuum.... May have todo with the way the shaft reacts at impact.....
Chris
I would tell you to swap tips before you swap shafts... Something with a harder durometer reading and especially higher COR... Less contact time should give you less throw.. At least from a practical standpoint.... no telling what it will do in the lab or in a vacuum.... May have todo with the way the shaft reacts at impact.....
Chris
I agree completely with all but the first sentence of your last paragraph. And well said by the way. With respect to a LD shaft, I believe you do *not* get more spin, but rather get a higher level of confidence hitting further from center due to the reduced cueball squirt. I suppose some tips feel "grippier" than others. The first time I tried a Kamui black soft coming from years of Moori's, I definitely felt I was spinning the ball more. It's not like I was hitting the ball any different. I suppose it is theoretically possible that the LD shaft causes a tendency for the shaft to move more laterally than a solid maple (heavier) shaft. I do not know if anyone has broken down the physics on what effect if any this lateral force can have at the brief moment of contact. It would be an interesting study though. Maybe I'm being contradictory lol.
KMRUNOUT
Agree completely. I played with my buddy's meucci play cue the other day and for same crazy reason he has a phenolic tip on it. Although I couldn't draw as well and had to rechalk after every hit I was spinning balls in so well I didn't even have to worry about getting good position. It's definitely easier to judge spin induced throw with a harder tip.
No. It doesn't. Something else is happening. Do you happen to live near a black hole, or some other place where the traditional newtonian physics breaks down? I believe its been thoroughly proven that the maximum throw is well below what you say.
How about this: your McDermott, having increased squirt, is reducing the perceived throw because it is hitting the object ball more full than the LD shaft (assuming outside english). Given the variables of squirt, swerve, and throw, I am not sure that you or anyone else can be certain from casual observation or even measured object ball trajectory what is actually happening with the cue ball between the tip and the object ball.
What do you think?
KMRUNOUT
I own an OB Classic. I went to that after playing with Predator for about 8 years. The hit is noticeably more solid than Predator. The squirt is also noticeably higher. This shaft is likely only available used at this point, since it has been replaced with the Classic Plus. My feeling of the plus vs the previous generation of OB is that it has a solid hit as well. I can't really say significantly more or less solid. It feels different.
I think on the wood ferrule OB's (the OB1 + and OB2 +), the hit is noticeably better and more solid than the previous generation.
I should point out that for me, "solid" and "crisp or firm" are two different variables. For example, I think both the Classic and the OB1 hit solid, but the Classic is a much "crisper" hit, sort of like a higher pitch sound, more of a "crack" than a "thunk".
I LOVE OB for the record. I play with the Pro +. It has a crisp, solid hit. Very low deflection. Once I transitioned to a smaller diameter shaft (11.75 vs 12.5-13mm), I decided that I wanted a tip that was less flexible than the Kamui black soft. I personally didn't care for the increased feeling of "flex" in the tip when using side spin. I actually want *less* spin out of the cue ball. I feel like the soft black really loads the ball up all too easily, and not consistently for my taste. I tried the brown soft and *bingo*...much much better. I believe the perfect tip for me is either the clear brown medium, or the Ki-Tech medium or medium hard. I get a lot of spin when I want it, but I feel it is more linear and controllable. I don't have that same sensation of the tip flexing so much.
My belief on the topic is that you should pick the shaft you want based primarily on the hit you like and the amount of squirt you feel works best for your game. Then control the level of perceived spin by fine tuning your tip selection. I bet if you threw a medium brown Kamui on your Predator Z shaft, you would immediately understand what I'm talking about. Give it a shot. If you want a new shaft with a larger diameter and like the low squirt for *aiming* and ball pocketing purposes, I would give a serious look at the OB Classic + or the OB1+.
I recommend you try Seyberts.com. They have phenomenal service and let you try it out and even chalk it. If you hate it, return it and get something else. You may even be able to get a full credit. They are awesome.
Hope this helps!
KMRUNOUT
If you are describing a scenario in which you hit the cue ball into the end rail and see how much you can spin it to the side rail, how did you confirm that you were hitting the end rail in the exact same spot? Recognize that if your regular maple shaft is deflecting the cue ball more, you may be hitting the end rail further out than with the LD shaft. This of course would make it harder to get as deep into the end rail. Another perhaps even more important factor to consider is that no matter where you hit the end rail, depending on the speed of the cue ball you may be contacting the end rail at an angle, in this case an angle that would work counter to the spin direction. This would likely kill off a lot of spin just reversing the direction of the cue ball.
Food for thought?
KMRUNOUT
This experiment is full of holes. You are not controlling your variables properly. It might help to *list* the variables you are trying to control, and point out *how* each one will be controlled.
KMRUNOUT
I don't own a i2 shaft, so I can't comment, but i do own a i3 shaft and all the Mezz shafts, so I can try to compare for you.
you should aso read my: "The big Mezz shaft" thread in the cue and shaft review section.
Even though both companies uses a carbon fibre rod core, the feel quite different.
The i3 shaft is very stiff for it's 11.75mm tip diameter. The way McDermott have constructed the ferrule system for the i shafts gives a hit that to me lacks feeling, it's a bit dead. The taper is really nice and the quality of the shaft seems to be very good.
The Hybrid Alpha is the largest tip diameter shaft Mezz offers. The taper is more conical, resulting in a stiff hit, the ferrule is quite a bit longer than the i shafts and made of a softer material (Nylon) the carbon fibre core must be constructed in a different way, you can feel it is there, but it's not as pronunced as in the i shafts.
To me personally I find the combination of conical taper, carbon fibre core and the big tip diameter to be too stiff and it's just too thick a shaft, especially on shots where I need to use a long bridge.
The Hybrid Pro 2 shaft has a 12.5mm tip diameter and a much longer taper, to me that shaft feels much nicer.
But since you are asking for a stiff big diameter shaft, the Hybrid Alpha might just be what you are looking for?
I also mentioned the new Exceed EX shaft, wich on the face, looks very similar to the Hybrid Pro 2.
I have not tested that shaft yet, but I have noticed that the ferrule is a bit shorter than the HP2 shaft and the rumour is that it has a different, slightly softer feeling carbon core.
One thing I have noticed with all carbon cored shafts is that they feel very harsh if you are using anything harder than a Medium hard tip. I like those shafts best with the softest playing tip I can find. The ones I have liked are: Kamui brown SS, G2 S, Zan Plus S, Zan Premium S and Moori S.
Of those the Zan Premium Soft, followed by the Zan Plus Soft and G2 soft has felt the best.
Well, since you asked, I have a very straight stroke and it's not like I'll be doing this with the obj ball very far away. That's why I'll take an avg of 5 hits at each cut. Heck, I'll probably do a lot more than 5, just figured 5 was a good base. Also, instead of aiming for a spot on the ball or a pocket I will be aiming for the mark on the table in front of the obj ball, which will be dead center under the ghost ball. I will be doing these shots at a pretty low speed so it maximizes the throw affect and so that my friend can mark where the obj ball meets the rail or pocket each time. I also have a measles cue ball so it will be easy to aim for the same proportioned measure of english for each cue. Not exactly a vacuum test setting but I will be careful.
And I realize this may have nothing to do with why you asked, but spin induced throw is easy to measure if we are examining a straight on contact, as Dave has already demonstrated. But if you really want to see spin throw variation you need to do it with a cut shot, not a dead straight-on shot where the throw will be limited. Straight on contact mitigates the effect of spin induced throw, because there is more static friction generated on a cut shot than with a straight on shot... Not to sound pretentious or anything. You mightve already been aware of this. And this is just pure speculation on my part, but if you hit an object ball full there is a much much higher energy transfer between balls which I think would mean less contact time. That notion combined with a lack of the aforementioned static friction effect might better explain straight-on throw mitigation to those who were previously unaware.
So yes, it will be more difficult to accurately measure throw on a cut shot, but the results will be way more conspicuous.
Thanks so much for this. I was starting to think this thread was going no where. What you said about the lack of feel in the i3 is ironic that they would advertise this shaft as their "feel" shaft and the i2 as their "control" shaft. I definitely dont like dead hits so thank you for telling me. Maybe I will start saving my pennies for the Alpha because I do really like the sound of everything you have told me and what I've read about it so far.
Yeah I just changed the tip from an everest to one of pooldawg8's milk duds. It hits super solid like a hard and grips the cb like no other I've ever had. And also, I can run racks out without needing to rechalk which is pretty sweet. Maybe those duds just generate way more spin than I am used to. A lot of people seem to think I would like the classic so maybe I will give it a go. I've just always been a little skeptical when I see how many people claim OBs have a buttery hit, and arent very solid. I do like their approach to shaft design and quality construction though so I'll see if I can find one to shoot with. Thank you for staying on topic by the way.
@zieglermt: a friend had a McD with the I2 so i tested it a few times. all i can say is i didnt like it 
produces massive spin easily, feels a little "indifferent", more deflection than any of the other shafts mentionned in this thread. he switched back to the G core shaft since it simply felt better to him and imho the G core plays better than the I2.
If you would be OK with 12.5, the HP2 would have been a tremendous shaft for you. stiff and very "honest", so no superduper spin without a good technique
produces massive spin easily, feels a little "indifferent", more deflection than any of the other shafts mentionned in this thread. he switched back to the G core shaft since it simply felt better to him and imho the G core plays better than the I2.If you would be OK with 12.5, the HP2 would have been a tremendous shaft for you. stiff and very "honest", so no superduper spin without a good technique
OBs don't hit like butter I have the old classic and I think hits pretty good I hear that the new classic plus is even better I just bought one my self last night can't wait too get it hope u get one u like as well
Your second paragraph seems chock full of speculation on your part. Why would you think there is more static friction generated on a cut shot? Why would you think the contact time is less for a straight on shot?
Curious...
KMRUNOUT
Another thing: It is not as easy as you may think to aim the cue ball at a particular spot. I watched one of the elite pro players in the country who shoots as straight as anyone try and aim at a ghost ball sticker on the table, and fail a lot. That isn't the way he aims, so it was foreign to him. He, as with most people, are used to referencing their aim off the object ball, rather than aiming the cue ball at a point in space (well, 2D space).
I'm curious why you wouldn't want to reproduce Patrick's suggested experiment, which is far more scientifically put together and controls the variables to a considerably higher degree. Just wondering. It seems like *if* some of your beliefs are mistaken, your proposed experiment will not do anything to reveal the truth, but rather will serve to support your beliefs whether they are correct or not. Not trying to pick on you, but if you want to get at truth, you have to both be prepared to eliminate previously held beliefs that turn out to be disproved, and also to be very aware of *every* variable that contributes to your question.
Last thing: I would not describe any OB shaft as having a particularly "hard" hit. The Pro +, Pro, and Classic I have all hit sort of medium. However they are all very "solid". Conversely, my 314-2 shaft on the same butt hits much harder, but feels less solid. I wonder if this makes sense to you or anyone lol.
Anyway, best of luck in your search,
KMRUNOUT
ok, static friction was a misnomer on my part, but there is way more friction with a cut shot, that can't even be debated. To find your answer you need to know what kinetic friction is, and what causes it. Say youre using outside english spin induced throw. And let's say youre cutting a shot to the left. The two balls will briefly rub together as they meet and pass by, and if you have an appropriate amount of spin on the cueball at that moment of impact, friction will be generated; so much so that the right hand english will transfer the opposite rotation onto the object ball causing it to spin clockwise as it will veer off the predicted path and further to the left depending on how much spin you use on the CB and the speed of the shot. Picture the cue ball and obj ball as gears, and when the cogs of the gears interlock with each other at the moment they come into contact with each other they will spin in opposite directions.
An object that is moving suddenly experiences kinetic friction - what happens to the speed of that object? It will slow down, making the energy exchange at the moment of impact, or rubbing, a longer process. A full ball hit does not generate as much kinetic friction and if your cueball isnt spinning at all at the moment of a full ball impact it will hardly generate any kenetic friction at all. Since they aren't sliding against each other the energy exchange is a much faster process, therefore the contact time will be fractionally more brief, but maybe it's enough to make a difference. This explains why there is a limit to straight-on spin induced throw and why the only way you can properly determine spin induced throw that would be practical in a pool game setting is to measure it on a variety of cut shots.