aiming and english

B

bbb

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dont know if this is the right place for this question
but
here goes
was at the pool room and was talking with a pro
he started talking about how to get more spin on the ball
lining up as if to hit center ball
move your front hand and back hand(for left spin front hand left /right hand right) and just shoot even though the cue stick isnt lined up with the contact point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for reference when i use english i line up like i would for a center ball shot but come down int o the position for the english i intended
the cue stick is still alligned with my target even tho the cutip is off center
btw dont shoot me but i use the ghost ball technique for aiming

i was amazed when i tried it that the cue ball went straight to the target
even tho i felt crosseyed since the cue was pointed one way i was alligned another way
but i made the shot and it seemed the cue ball had more juice

your thoughts???
 
bbb said:
btw dont shoot me but i use the ghost ball technique for aiming
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Click to expand...

OMG!! (calls to the back: "Hey, we've go another one!")

Okay, now don't panic. Just breath slowly, help is on the way. Stay Right Where You Are!





:grin:
 
joeyA in a different thread posted this link
http://www.kamuibrand.com/billiard-en/?page_id=16&paged=2
although its about kamui chalk this picture in it might explain the phenomenon im questioning since
the angled cue stick in my description is increasing vetor x-a i think.what do you think?
pivot.jpg
 
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bbb said:
joeyA in a different thread posted this link
http://www.kamuibrand.com/billiard-en/?page_id=16&paged=2
although its about kamui chalk this picture in it might explain the phenomenon im questioning since
the angled cue stick is increasing vetor x-a i think.what do you think?
View attachment 243588
Click to expand...
It's pretty amazing that you've been a member here for four years and don't know about "squirt".

When you hit the CB offcenter it won't go exactly in the direction your cue is pointed; it will go "offline" slightly in the opposite direction from the spin you're applying (for example, right spin = CB goes offline to the left). That's "squirt". When you move your tip to the side to add spin, if you keep your cue parallel to the direction you want the CB to go, you'll miss your target (because the CB squirts offline) - so you have to angle your cue a little in the direction of the spin to compensate (like aiming a rifle a little to the side of the target to compensate for a crosswind).

If you're hitting your target but not getting the spin you should, it's probably because your subconscious mind is telling your arm to swing the cue tip back to centerball during your final stroke (because it has noticed that you miss otherwise). This subconscious "stroke steering" is very common but hard to detect and cure - unless you cure the root cause (in this case your misconception about how to apply sidespin).

pj
chgo

P.S. The guy you were talking to didn't show you how to get "extra" spin - he showed you how to get normal spin.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's pretty amazing that you've been a member here for four years and don't know about "squirt".

When you hit the CB offcenter it won't go exactly in the direction your cue is pointed; it will go "offline" slightly in the opposite direction from the spin you're applying (for example, right spin = CB goes offline to the left). That's "squirt". When you move your tip to the side to add spin, if you keep your cue parallel to the direction you want the CB to go, you'll miss your target (because the CB squirts offline) - so you have to angle your cue a little in the direction of the spin to compensate (like aiming a rifle a little to the side of the target to compensate for a crosswind).

If you're hitting your target but not getting the spin you should, it's probably because your subconscious mind is telling your arm to swing the cue tip back to centerball during your final stroke (because it has noticed that you miss otherwise). This subconscious "stroke steering" is very common but hard to detect and cure - unless you cure the root cause (in this case your misconception about how to apply sidespin).

pj
chgo

P.S. The guy you were talking to didn't show you how to get "extra" spin - he showed you how to get normal spin.
Click to expand...

patrick i do know about squirt but i never paid much attention to pivot points and back hand and front hand english...:embarrassed2:
since ive always just come down into the the english place on the cue all i thought i was using "parrallel" english even tho i know now that most people feel thats a misnomer
anyway i could make balls and use english with the method i was using and didnt want to start over and learn a new way
this really has me intrigued although its tough to line up a shot "crosseyed" ie body aliignment and headline to contact point and the cue stick pointed off line
then stroke thru straight on the line of cuestick and watch the ball go in:eek:
its like jumping out of an airplane and beleiving the parachute will open
thanks for all the help
if anyone still has comments to make im all ears
 
bbb said:
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anyway i could make balls and use english with the method i was using and didnt want to start over and learn a new way
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Click to expand...

The 'method' you are using is simply one of trial and error (like most of us). Since applying left or right spin to the ball is going to make it squirt (yes, 'parallel' is a misnomer, since some amount of squirt is guaranteed), you have, over time, accounted for that in your aiming, and now it's probably second nature.

I find BHE (back hand english) most useful on shots like these (sorry, I left out the arrow showing the 1-ball going into the corner pocket):

cuetable01.jpg


where I want to shoot hard, and put the maximum amount of inside spin that I can. I used to miss these. I would always overcut the shot, and miss. Now, I line it up as a centerball shot that I know I can't miss, apply as much BHE as I think I'm going to need, and fire away. Now I never miss these.

This also requires a little trial and error, to find out where your cue's pivot point is: the bridge point which nullifies squirt because of the new aim line.
 
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cjssecrets4u2 said:
Or how about using Deflection like the "old days"?
Click to expand...

Because the term "deflection" is too general. You also have shaft deflection ( happens when "whippy" shafts bend away from the cue ball.) Curve (swerve) shots and throw shots are also shots of deflection because a ball is being forced (deflected) off of its natural straight-line of travel.

I agree with you, though. It seems like someone could have come up with a better name than "squirt" for cue ball deflection.

Roger
 
We could use veer, detour, twist, turn, or even careen! :) I just put cue ball in front of the word "deflection" and life is good.

Best,
Mike
 
Roger Long said:
Because the term "deflection" is too general. You also have shaft deflection ( happens when "whippy" shafts bend away from the cue ball.) Curve (swerve) shots and throw shots are also shots of deflection because a ball is being forced (deflected) off of its natural straight-line of travel.

I agree with you, though. It seems like someone could have come up with a better name than "squirt" for cue ball deflection.

Roger
Click to expand...

When we play a game with as much sexual innuendo as pool has, it somehow seems fitting to also have the word "squirt" in there somewhere.

I always looked at it as like what a watermelon seed does when you pinch it, it squirts out of your fingers.
 
Aiming and English

bbb said:
dont know if this is the right place for this question
but
here goes
was at the pool room and was talking with a pro
he started talking about how to get more spin on the ball
lining up as if to hit center ball
move your front hand and back hand(for left spin front hand left /right hand right) and just shoot even though the cue stick isnt lined up with the contact point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for reference when i use english i line up like i would for a center ball shot but come down int o the position for the english i intended
the cue stick is still alligned with my target even tho the cutip is off center
btw dont shoot me but i use the ghost ball technique for aiming

i was amazed when i tried it that the cue ball went straight to the target
even tho i felt crosseyed since the cue was pointed one way i was alligned another way
but i made the shot and it seemed the cue ball had more juice

your thoughts???
Click to expand...

Here is my reply to another post on the same thing......This is how I look at it...sure other folks think differently, mine works for me....all that matters.

336robin
aimisthegameinpool.com

Pidge,
Every change in a cue is going to have some effect so it doesnt surprise me that you changing a butt has either stiffened or make your cue more pliable. I used to play with a soft instead of hard shaft and once I had some shafts made well everything changed.

The fact that this has affected your normal arch should be no real surprise either but in all actuality its not so complicated either...the first cue being the basis, the one after it is now different so its either more or less deflection.

I have a friend I play that used to amaze me he could pick up a cue hit 2 to 3 shots and say ok its deflecting like that and then play like a champ with about any cue he was playing with.

I recently bought a Predator Sneaky from a guy selling his equipment and it started spoiling me right off but I liked the other cue and it wasnt too bad on the deflection so I put the Sneaky Pete up. I see now why people like the new generation of special shafts.....less is better with deflection....but you do give up a few small things when you go to them but its argueable that you cant get used to that as well and be a overall better player.

So I guess it just comes down to what you like........then you deal with it....

For me I want to be able to tell where to hit em with Center Ball if I can see that then Im on my way to solving the way the cue archs the ball. Its either more or less than the one Im used to playing with but interesting you mention this....I know depending on Diamond distance from the object ball shot how to allow for my playing cue......if you know the center ball spot then measure from 1 diamond, 2 diamond, 3 diamond and finally 4 diamonds from the shot and shoot them until they go you will find out with that cue....everything is either more or less..... the farther away the more absurd the allowance...for my cue....1 diamond is equal to 1/2 in, 2 diamonds...3/4 to 1in, 3 diamonds 1in to 1/4 and 4 diamonds 11/2 to 1 3/4 if not more depending on English and stroke pressure used. So for me everything else is either more or less now because I know the cue I play with.

First I find my center ball spot looking over the cue ball then I pivot those different distances from the edge of the center ball spot and yeah...Ive got a pretty high percentage of success.

Whether you pivot or bark at the moon you still have to allow some distance from the center ball contact point on the object ball somehow......if you start measuring it thinking about how far in diamonds you are from the shot...youre onto something good and everything between the diamond distances now is either more or less.... How do I know how far I am from the object ball. I use my cue shaft its 2 diamonds up the shaft to the line where the chalk doesnt stain, its 4 diamonds in the last part of the wrap.....you can put the tip on the cloth and look at it and tell. If you know youre going to juice it up good it only takes a split second to do this....

336Robin
aimisthegameinpool.com
 
bbb said:
was at the pool room and was talking with a pro
he started talking about how to get more spin on the ball
lining up as if to hit center ball
move your front hand and back hand(for left spin front hand left /right hand right) and just shoot even though the cue stick isnt lined up with the contact point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
This sounds like front-hand English (FHE) and back-hand English (BHE). These techniques work well for certain types of shots (and work well for all shots if you know how to make adjustments where necessary). These systems don't help you "get more spin" on the ball, but they do help you compensate for squirt ("cue ball deflection") and "squerve" (the combined effects of squirt and swerve, AKA "net cue ball deflection").

Regards,
Dave

PS: For more info and video demonstrations, click on the BHE/FHE link.
 
For me the combination of BHE and FHE doesn't work nearly as well as just using BHE which can make it kind of awkward on shots with extreme english. My hand ends up too close or too far from my body, but I've learned to deal with it.

I recommend shooting the shot with your eyes closed in practice to give you faith in the method so you don't try and compensate for the off line cue and stroke.

As for more spin with these methods...I don't know about that, I've certainly not experienced this, and I haven't seen any evidence of it. FHE/BHE are purely methods to take some of the guesswork away when judging how far the CB will squirt.
 
Pidge said:
For me the combination of BHE and FHE doesn't work nearly as well as just using BHE
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Because Back Hand English only works perfectly with a specific shaft pivot point for each shot, odds are you're already using both and don't realize it.

As for more spin with these methods...I don't know about that, I've certainly not experienced this, and I haven't seen any evidence of it. FHE/BHE are purely methods to take some of the guesswork away when judging how far the CB will squirt.
Click to expand...
Swiping sidespin isn't quite as meaningless as swiping follow, but nearly.

pj
chgo
 
Call it whatever you like. The facts remain. We each must make adjustments when using english. Like fingerprints, no two strokes are alike and each of us must find our own way through this maze. The only right way to do this is to practice till it hurts and then practice some more.
Just my humble opinion.
 
TRWpool said:
Call it whatever you like. The facts remain. We each must make adjustments when using english. Like fingerprints, no two strokes are alike and each of us must find our own way through this maze. The only right way to do this is to practice till it hurts and then practice some more.
Just my humble opinion.
Click to expand...

That sounds reasonable, but another way is to play til it hurts & then play some more. And a little help along the way certainly could help. Though I never got any. I 'stole' it from watching & learning while I was playing.

Practice is kind of like studying. I never liked it & never really learned how. I got it, learned it, while in class where I could ask questions. Once you learn it you don't have to study.
 
Roger Long said:
Because the term "deflection" is too general. You also have shaft deflection ( happens when "whippy" shafts bend away from the cue ball.) Curve (swerve) shots and throw shots are also shots of deflection because a ball is being forced (deflected) off of its natural straight-line of travel.

I agree with you, though. It seems like someone could have come up with a better name than "squirt" for cue ball deflection.

Roger
Click to expand...

Actually the first time I had it explained to me 20+ years ago, the old gentleman called it topple... Explained it like "which way a building would fall"... Supposedly he was a good friend and disciple of Eddie Taylor... He showed me CJ's TOI technique, Eddie's wrist banks and a bunch of stuff I wish I had understood....


Chris
 
Just to add to my previous post.

Practice, practice, practice. One thing about practicing though. If you are practicing with bad habits you won't do anything but reinforce those bad habits. And if you have good habits, but practice while you are tired or with a lack of enthusiasm, you may be doing yourself a disservice. Practice with a sharp mind and a positive attitude. That's one way. Or you can do it like I did and just play everybody in sight. (Back then there weren't any instructors available. If a guy got caught teaching someone he could get his ass kicked.) The problem now is finding a room where there is a wide selection of players ranging from the novice to the expert, and the better players are going to make you bet. Not many of those rooms around anymore, and why not take advantage of one of the great teacher that make themselves available. It's a lot cheaper and you will learn a lot faster.

Tom
 
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