Aiming systems

It seems to me that when someone suggests an aiming system they have good intentions. At least that is the place to begin. Later there may be a nefarious reason but that can be worked with at the appropriate time.

In general, I would suppose that the creator has found something that works for the individual and perhaps some friends. The way to discuss these matters would be to first, and foremost find what is right with the system, method, or approach. Not everyone is sophisticated with terminology, math, physics, etc. So the place to begin would be to take the basic idea and try to see where it will work. In that way everyone learns something from the exercise.

Half ball, quarter ball approaches have some merits and some limitations. Aiming with the use of diamonds, the tip of the stick and other methods may also have some uses as reference points that contribute to success and confidence. These could be explored for the benefits. Then the limits can be addressed. In this way those of you who are conversant in various disciplines can assist others rather than come across as bombastic.

One of the senior professors who had the most significant impact on me in graduate school required a lengthy term paper and it could not contain any fault finding only positive findings that would improve our state of knowledge. Limits could be stated to delineate the field of application but fault finding was not allowed. This is an excellent technique that taught me to learn and not waste my time on what does not work. I have used it for a life time and recommend it without reservation!

I have learned some things that are counter intuitive (to most people) because a student had a hard headed notion that we explored and later learned there was substance to the matter. The first thing to do is to explore the idea for its merits.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:

CueTable Help



Maybe pictures will help you. Look at the two pages of this diagram. Click back and forth a few times to see how the cue ball hits the object ball at different contact points (and the object ball goes to two different places on the end rail).

Let me know if you still want to bet. I'm thinking about flying you to Chicago for this. If I left it up to any of the sharks that live here (like 1 Pocket Ghost), you'd be on a plane already.

By the way, if you trust Bob Jewett enough to have him judge the bet, why not ask him how he thinks you'll do with it? I strongly recommend getting some second opinions.

pj
chgo

Read this after my just previous post. I will respond to any currently existing posts from you.

Patrick, I clicked back and forth several times and doggone it, I didn't see a depiction of where the cue tip was pointing WHICH IS THE ENTIRE HEART OF THE METHOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET IT????????????????

If you can depict an ACCURATE visual of where the tip points in relation to the left edge of the CB for each of the 4 shots...then do so.

But the BEST visual would be if you opened your mind at least as wide as your eyes...saunter 10 feet over to your pool table AND LOOK FOR YOURSELF!!

By the way, if you trust Bob Jewett enough to have him judge the bet, why not ask him how he thinks you'll do with it? I strongly recommend getting some second opinions.

I HAVE asked him to try the example. Read the thread!




Let me know if you still want to bet. I'm thinking about flying you to Chicago for this. If I left it up to any of the sharks that live here (like 1 Pocket Ghost), you'd be on a plane already.

Thanks but I don't need you to fly me to Chicago. I lived there for 30 years and can just barely scrape up enough extra money to pay for the air fare. Thanks for the offer though. But I won't have time to get up there until after DCC and not being in Chicago in January is the main reason I don't live there any more.

And YES...PLEASE...PLEASE take my money.

Venue DCC, Bob judges or someone else we will mutually agree on (I'm sure Scottie would for a small fee). Shots executed by player of our mutual choice. My first choice would be Allison because her mechanics are so flawless. LaserCue will be used to precisely verify where the tip is being aimed. Money posted with the judge in advance. Outright wager or money goes to charity... or better yet, we'll agree to add the money to the DCC prize fund...your choice.

BET??? YES OR NO?????

(-:

(and please note that the best thing that will happen from this bet will be to teach you a lesson about being dogmatic, stone headed and being unwilling to walk 10 feet to TRY an idea! I can just hear you in a former life telling Henry Ford what MOST others told him...that building such a HUGE manufacturing plant to build FAD TOYS was insane!!

Or maybe you were one of those military scientists who told Billy Mitchell that aerial bombing of ships at sea COULD NOT WORK BASED ON SCIENTIC STUDIES!!!
ROFLMAO
Mitchell was concerned that the building of dreadnoughts was taking precious defense dollars away from military aviation. He was convinced that a force of anti-shipping airplanes could defend a coastline with more economy than a combination of coastal guns and naval vessels. A thousand bombers could be built at the same cost as one battleship, and could sink that battleship.[1] Mitchell infuriated the Navy by claiming he could sink ships "under war conditions," and boasted he could prove it if he were permitted to bomb captured German battleships. The Navy reluctantly agreed to the demonstration, specifying strict guidelines so that they could carefully study the bomb damage. There would be a news blackout until all data had been analyzed at which point only the official news report would be released. Mitchell felt that the Navy was going to bury the results.

Mitchell assembled an air and ground crew of 125 aircraft and 1000 men and began training in anti-ship bombing techniques at Langley, Virginia. Alexander Seversky, a veteran Russian pilot who had bombed German ships in WWI, joined the effort, suggesting the bombers aim near the ships so that expanding water pressure from the underwater blasts would stave in and separate hull plates.

Mitchell held to the Navy guidelines for the first sequence of tests and successfully sank numerous ships, including the U.S. pre-dreadnought battleship Alabama. Finally, in late July, 1921 the Navy brought out the German WW1 battleship, Ostfriesland, considered unsinkable. Anticipating such a target, Mitchell had previously seen to the design and manufacture of 2000 lb. and 4300 lb. bombs, ordnances too large to be allowed in the guidelines. The bombs were loaded and heavy bombers scored two direct hits plus four more dropped in the water close enough to rip hull plates. The ship sank in 21 minutes, with one last bomb dropped on the foam rising up from the sinking ship.

(-:
 
CaptainJR said:
I haven't participated in one of these aiming threads in a long time. I'm over due. It has been proven many times on this forum that these edge of the ball type systems just don't work but once more won't hurt.

Thanks for your comments. But this is not an "edge of the ball system." Rather, it is a system the uses the cue tip to aim at VARIOUS spots on the OB.

Regards,
Jim
 
Jal said:
Av84fun, you're about to lose $5000. You should be grateful Patrick declined your first offer, but you persist despite him very generously, and very straightforwardly, demonstrating the flaws in your system. If $5000 doesn't mean much to you, then have at it, but you're in for a rude and expensive awakening.

Don't say that people haven't tried to warn you, including Mr. Johnson himself. Bravo to him.

Jim

Jim, with respect and gratitude for your concern for my financial wellbeing, no he has NOT "demonstrated" the flaws in my system, straightforwardly or otherwise.

Please point me to any of his posts that SHOWS where the cue tip is pointed in relation to the CB on any of the 4 shots in the example.

UNTIL THAT VISUAL IS SHOWN TO BE FALSE then any criticism of the method is just SILY because the entire system is BASED on that visual sighting system!

Have YOU tried the example? Do YOU want a piece of my bank account too?
(-:
 
It seems to me that when someone suggests an aiming system they have good intentions. At least that is the place to begin. Later there may be a nefarious reason but that can be worked with at the appropriate time.

What are you talking about, Joe? Has somebody suggested a "nefarious" reason for av84fun posting this system? As far as I know we're just discussing (and discussing and discussing) whether or not it could possibly work as described.

pj
chgo
 
Please point me to any of his posts that SHOWS where the cue tip is pointed in relation to the CB on any of the 4 shots in the example.

Look at any of the diagrams I posted. Notice how the lines from the centers of the A and B cue balls both point right at the edge of the 1 ball? Doesn't that show that your tip, pointing through the center of the cue ball (as you specified), would point right at the edge of the 1 ball? Why do you think I showed those lines?

By the way, are you aware that the shot you describe is a half-ball hit, probably the most common hit in pool?

pj
chgo
 
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av84fun said:
That is just an utterly stone headed attitude. I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing so there is no point in any further dialog between us on this matter.

(-:

I did something similar yesterday and adapted it to this train wreck,
aka, discussion.

CueTable Help



you can see that the ghost ball is at exactly the point of contact necessary to pocket the ball, center pocket.
The only ball in the run of 5 that passes through the center of the GB
and whose aim line is split by the edge of the OB is the number 4 ball.
This is not to say that the 3 or the 5 won't pocket the ball with this aim line.
Only that, the 4 is the only one that puts the 9 dead center.
av8, if your system works, your conveying it completely wrong,
or we're all missing the key that makes it work.
please advise,
-cOOp

edit: I see now that the system uses the cue tip through the left edge of the cue ball?, but I'm not sure as to where that line should
go, or how it would be the same for cut angles that vary by more than 2 degrees, based on the center pocket addendum.

edit #2: I can't make sense of this system, could you please diagram it for us laypeople?
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Look at any of the diagrams I posted. Notice how the lines from the centers of the A and B cue balls both point right at the edge of the 1 ball? Doesn't that show that your tip, pointing through the center of the cue ball (as you specified), would point right at the edge of the 1 ball? Why do you think I showed those lines?

By the way, are you aware that the shot you describe is a half-ball hit, probably the most common hit in pool?

pj
chgo

pj
chgo:

Av8 can't win based on what I've read. If you're at DCC, I'll let you setup random balls around the table and I'll pop them in aiming center-to-edge all day long. I'll use one aim for every shot at the table without kicks/banks. I'll even aim at the edge of the OB for straight in shots. I'll keep it friendly, just so you can see it - for $100.

ds
york

note: i'm not giving lessons or saying what i'm doing - i'm just doing it.
 
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av84fun said:
Thanks for your comments. But this is not an "edge of the ball system." Rather, it is a system the uses the cue tip to aim at VARIOUS spots on the OB.

Regards,
Jim


Just don't want you to be misguide yourself. "cut tip", edge of the ball, quarter ball half ball. None of them work on difficult shots with little margin for error. They work in a few instances when it just happens to be set up for that shot. If you surround that shots object ball with several other object balls like I did in my example. They all miss.

All said with good intentions.
JR
 
AT LEAST TRY THIS!

1. Place an OB half way between the right lower corner and the diagonal side pocket. That's roughly 4 feet on a 9' table.

2. Place a CB a foot closer to the side pocket and create a LOC that would send the center of the OB into the left point of the corner pocket. Use your cue stick to set both balls on that line. Shot dead straight along that LOC the ball can't go because it will hit the point.
3. Aim the shot any way you want AND THEN LOOK AT WHAT POINT ON THE OB THE CUE TIP POINTS TO! It will..IN FACT...point one half tip left of center and if you shoot, the OB will go dead center.

Based on the above, it has AT LEAST been proven that you can use the half tip to the left aiming method to pocket AT LEAST that shot!

4. Now, set up a new LOC so that it points exactly one ball left of the left corner point. Again, use your cue as a straigt edge to accomplish that.

5. Sight your own way again for a center pocket shot AND LOOK AT WHERE THE TIP POINTS...It will point EXACTLY 1/2 tip to the left and if you shoot with that aim the OB will drop DEAD CENTER AGAIN.

So now AT LEAST it is proven that if the LOC is directed within certain parameters (as described in the system) then sighting with the cue tip in relation to a specific point on the CB can be used IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THE SHOT ANGLE HAS CHANGED.

NOW THE ONLY QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE PARAMETERS OF THE CUSHION AREA...DETERMINED IN RELATION TO THE DIAMONDS...WITHIN WHICH THE EXACT SAME CUE TIP TO CUE BALL SIGHTING TARGET CAN BE USED TO POCKET SHOTS WITH DIFFERENT CUT ANGLES.

My system describes those paramenters with great accuracy...and based on the FACTS as cited in the above example, to argue that identical "tip-to-CB" sight targets cannot be used to pocket shots with different cut angles IS JUST SILLY.

Again, the only question is..."Will the method work in scenarios other than the one described above?" Maybe it will and maybe it won't...fine...go see for yourself...or don't.

But I suggest that because it irrefutably DOES work in at least the above example, then anyone who is both interested and wise WOULD AT LEAST GIVE IT A BLOODY TRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(-:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Look at any of the diagrams I posted. Notice how the lines from the centers of the A and B cue balls both point right at the edge of the 1 ball? Doesn't that show that your tip, pointing through the center of the cue ball (as you specified), would point right at the edge of the 1 ball?

pj, the diagram you posted is...what...1/10 scale? It is impossible to shrink the cue tip 90% and have a clue what visual impression you would have in relation to spots on the OB.

Desperate for things to agree with you about (-: let me agree that if pool cues and balls were as small as they are in your diagram, then my system could not possibly work.

By the way, are you aware that the shot you describe is a half-ball hit, probably the most common hit in pool?

Yes, pj. I have heard rumors to that effect but throwing science back at you, can you point me to any empirical, double blind, peer reviewed study that shows that a half ball his is the most common in pool? (see, I can argue for the sake of arguing too!) (-:

More importantly...what in the world does that have to do with the price of rice...or anything else???

If you will move the CB in the orignal 4 shot example just under 4 CB widths to the left so as to create a LOC pointing directly at the 1st diamond to the left of the left corner pocket, you will find that aiming properly by any means for the dead center of the pocket, the left edge of the cue tip points to the left edge of the CB.

Is that a half ball cut too??
(-:
 
I can mathematically prove this system to be flawed... I just don't have a scanner at work to post a thorough mathematical proof.

But to give a short proof, let's just deal with one aspect of the system, the half-ball hit:

To say that if the LOC points between the first two diamonds a half-ball hit will always send the OB at the center of the pocket (center ball hit and all that), then at all CB-OB distances, the angle between the LOC and the line the OB departs on must be the same, or close enough within the tolerances of the pocket opening and such. Basic trigonometry shows this to be impossible.

Let's call the CB and OB radii "R" (assuming identical ball sizes)
Let's call the distance between CB and OB centers "d".
Let's call the angle between the LOC and the OB path after the hit "Z" (this can be thought of as the angle of departure for the OB after the CB strikes it.)

What this system is saying is that if the LOC points between the first two diamonds, then we can use the half-ball hit (aim the center of the cuetip directly though the CB center and through the very edge of the OB). For this system to pocket the ball every time, then angle "Z" should be the same (or nearly the same) for all distances "d". This simply isn't true. Not only that, but various CB-OB distances induce a very different angle Z.

To solve for Z:
Z = inversecosine(R/d) - inversecosine(R/2R)
or more simply:
Z = inversecosine(R/d) - 60

Clearly d is the only variable here, R is constant.

If d = 6r (the ball centers are 3 ball widths apart), then Z solves to ~20.4 degrees.

If we simply move the cueball back, keeping the exact same LOC, such that d = 40r (20 ball widths between centers), then Z solves to ~28.57 degrees.

This is a difference of over 8 degrees. So the OB in these two cases is departing on quite a different path for the two shots. A little more trig shows just how much the 8 degrees makes a difference, over whatever distance there is from OB-pocket.

Maybe I'll get around to posting a more thorough proof this weekend...
 
SpiderWebComm said:
pj
chgo:

Av8 can't win based on what I've read. If you're at DCC, I'll let you setup random balls around the table and I'll pop them in aiming center-to-edge all day long. I'll use one aim for every shot at the table without kicks/banks. I'll even aim at the edge of the OB for straight in shots. I'll keep it friendly, just so you can see it - for $100.

ds
york

note: i'm not giving lessons or saying what i'm doing - i'm just doing it.
You'll shoot random balls in for $100? If you find anybody who'll take you up on that, please send me their email address.

pj
chgo
 
av84fun said:
AT LEAST TRY THIS!

1. Place an OB half way between the right lower corner and the diagonal side pocket. That's roughly 4 feet on a 9' table.

2. Place a CB a foot closer to the side pocket and create a LOC that would send the center of the OB into the left point of the corner pocket. Use your cue stick to set both balls on that line. Shot dead straight along that LOC the ball can't go because it will hit the point.
3. Aim the shot any way you want AND THEN LOOK AT WHAT POINT ON THE OB THE CUE TIP POINTS TO! It will..IN FACT...point one half tip left of center and if you shoot, the OB will go dead center.

Based on the above, it has AT LEAST been proven that you can use the half tip to the left aiming method to pocket AT LEAST that shot!

4. Now, set up a new LOC so that it points exactly one ball left of the left corner point. Again, use your cue as a straigt edge to accomplish that.

5. Sight your own way again for a center pocket shot AND LOOK AT WHERE THE TIP POINTS...It will point EXACTLY 1/2 tip to the left and if you shoot with that aim the OB will drop DEAD CENTER AGAIN.

So now AT LEAST it is proven that if the LOC is directed within certain parameters (as described in the system) then sighting with the cue tip in relation to a specific point on the CB can be used IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THE SHOT ANGLE HAS CHANGED.

NOW THE ONLY QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE PARAMETERS OF THE CUSHION AREA...DETERMINED IN RELATION TO THE DIAMONDS...WITHIN WHICH THE EXACT SAME CUE TIP TO CUE BALL SIGHTING TARGET CAN BE USED TO POCKET SHOTS WITH DIFFERENT CUT ANGLES.

My system describes those paramenters with great accuracy...and based on the FACTS as cited in the above example, to argue that identical "tip-to-CB" sight targets cannot be used to pocket shots with different cut angles IS JUST SILLY.

Again, the only question is..."Will the method work in scenarios other than the one described above?" Maybe it will and maybe it won't...fine...go see for yourself...or don't.

But I suggest that because it irrefutably DOES work in at least the above example, then anyone who is both interested and wise WOULD AT LEAST GIVE IT A BLOODY TRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(-:


I don't have to give it a try. I'll concede that it works on some shots. That isn't the point. Did you even look at my example? If you want to convince me all you have to do is tell me how your system changes on each of those shots to pocket the ball. For every shot you show that it does work on there are a thousand other shots that is doesn't work on.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You'll shoot random balls in for $100? If you find anybody who'll take you up on that, please send me their email address.

pj
chgo

Setup a shot you don't think can be made by aiming at the edge of the OB. Something realistic--- nothing center short rail to center short rail. That was what I was trying to say. Obviously, you're not gonna throw balls out and have me cosmo them in for $100. Setup some shots you believe can't be made aiming at the edge of the OB (center-to-edge exactly).

ds
york

I mean this totally friendly-like and with respect. Just something to do. Don't even have to pay the $100. I'm a heck of a guy.
 
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If you will move the CB in the orignal 4 shot example just under 4 CB widths to the left so as to create a LOC pointing directly at the 1st diamond to the left of the left corner pocket, you will find that aiming properly by any means for the dead center of the pocket, the left edge of the cue tip points to the left edge of the CB.

Is that a half ball cut too?

Not if the left edge of the tip is pointing at the edge of the OB. It is a half ball cut if the center of the tip is pointing at the edge of the OB, as you specified for your proposition shots. That's the definition of a half ball cut (aiming the center of the CB at the edge of the OB). It's also the definition of a half ball aim and a half ball contact point (in case you thought they were different).

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Setup a shot you don't think can be made by aiming at the edge of the OB. Something realistic--- nothing center short rail to center short rail. That was what I was trying to say. Obviously, you're gonna throw balls out and have me cosmo them in for $100. Setup some shots you believe can't be made aiming at the edge of the OB (center-to-edge exactly).

ds
york

I mean this totally friendly-like and with respect. Just something to do. Don't even have to pay the $100. I'm a heck of a guy.
Then how do I know you're really aiming like you say you are?

(Friendly here too...)

pj
chgo
 
JUANBOUND
But to give a short proof, let's just deal with one aspect of the system, the half-ball hit:

To say that if the LOC points between the first two diamonds a half-ball hit will always send the OB at the center of the pocket

Please hold right there. You have not read mysystem's details and/or are confusing what I propose vs. what some others propose.

I never stated that a half ball hit will send the OB anywhere. This is NOT fractional system.

Just try the 4 ball spot shot example when you get to a table and then you will SEE what I mean and will then be able to use your obviously advanced math skill to explain why it works.

As far as I know "triggernometry" is what you use to fire guns!
(-:

Regards,
Jim

PS: Please know that I am grateful for all the posts here BUT it is interesting that not a SINGLE objecting post was from someone who actually SHOT THE SHOTS!!

Oh well!!
(-:
 
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