All Members Please Give Your Opinion On The Following Forum Behavior / Issues
- Thread starter manwon
- Start date
The "issue" that bothers me the most is when someone has a cue for sale and then starts the endless compliments, along with many faux offers to buy if only they had the money or hadn't already ordered three other custom cues, and "bumps", bumps and more bumps. The compliments are ceaseless and make me wary of the seller. How many compliments are necessary on almost every cue that comes up for sale!
manwon said:
It was a generalized statement based on the obvious transparency and disdain in some threads I have read of late. It is there, I am not naive enough not to see it. I made no reference to you or your post in that statement so take it "with a grain of salt."
I believe we understand each other a little bit from our private PMs so I will say I am in agreement with your generalized approach to the issues at hand and that we all need to work together to resolve them. However, like it or not, post #4 brought a 1 person aspect to the thread as evidenced by the next two pages. You and many others have obviously taken offense to the whole "buying rep" thing while others have had simple fun trading free rep. Then there are people like me who could care less, as I have stated my opinion on reps.
Intentions may or may not be stated, but this is a forum of nearly 15,000 people and they all aren't going to read things the same way.
So aside from that, as I said in my ramblings, I will surely do my part to try and make this a better place for people. Getting back on track:
manwon said:
You disagree with my opinion, fair enough. So how should I categorize this?
manwon said:
Should I take this as fact or should I take this as hype? Should I take this as a good opinion because you have a good reputation of 11 greenies? How do I know that's not an exaggeration? How is that different than someone else saying "It's the best cue.... Period!"? In my opinion, there is no difference and that's the basis of my discussion on hype.
To more effectively discuss the topic, I suppose I need clarification when you say: "It only becomes hype when we exaggerate the facts, in a manner that is deceptively used to influence the opinions of others." So if you would please give me an example of this. What are the facts you are referring to?
manwon said:
Putting "facts in an opinion" is a bit of an oxymoron to me, simply because in many cases, especially in a forum, facts and opinions don't often get used in the same sentence.
You are correct. A good product will receive all the valid credit that is due, and MANY products on here have received just that. But is it fact? Or is it hype? The truth is some believe it as fact, some believe it as hype, some are in between, and some just plain don't give a shit.
Hopefully, others will participate more and we can have a more progressive discussion so we can answer the question "What do we do about all of this?"
cubswin said:
Hey, you're mixing your media quotes - isn't that "Damn it, Janet"?
Anyway, I thought your name was Chris....Joe. Sorry about that!
I loved the '60s Batman series, even though it was totally campy. Somehow the 'tights' thing didn't bother kids....I guess it should have
Irish634 said:It was a generalized statement based on the obvious transparency and disdain in some threads I have read of late. It is there, I am not naive enough not to see it. I made no reference to you or your post in that statement so take it "with a grain of salt."
I believe we understand each other a little bit from our private PMs so I will say I am in agreement with your generalized approach to the issues at hand and that we all need to work together to resolve them. However, like it or not, post #4 brought a 1 person aspect to the thread as evidenced by the next two pages. You and many others have obviously taken offense to the whole "buying rep" thing while others have had simple fun trading free rep. Then there are people like me who could care less, as I have stated my opinion on reps.
Intentions may or may not be stated, but this is a forum of nearly 15,000 people and they all aren't going to read things the same way.
So aside from that, as I said in my ramblings, I will surely do my part to try and make this a better place for people. Getting back on track:
You disagree with my opinion, fair enough. So how should I categorize this?
Should I take this as fact or should I take this as hype? Should I take this as a good opinion because you have a good reputation of 11 greenies? How do I know that's not an exaggeration? How is that different than someone else saying "It's the best cue.... Period!"? In my opinion, there is no difference and that's the basis of my discussion on hype.
To more effectively discuss the topic, I suppose I need clarification when you say: "It only becomes hype when we exaggerate the facts, in a manner that is deceptively used to influence the opinions of others." So if you would please give me an example of this. What are the facts you are referring to?
Putting "facts in an opinion" is a bit of an oxymoron to me, simply because in many cases, especially in a forum, facts and opinions don't often get used in the same sentence.
You are correct. A good product will receive all the valid credit that is due, and MANY products on here have received just that. But is it fact? Or is it hype? The truth is some believe it as fact, some believe it as hype, some are in between, and some just plain don't give a shit.
Hopefully, others will participate more and we can have a more progressive discussion so we can answer the question "What do we do about all of this?"
(Your question
You disagree with my opinion, fair enough. So how should I categorize this?)The hype in question here is type where people sacrifice their integrity to promote and item that is not better than other like items being marketed. Where a persons integrity is sacrificed, is when their endorsement is meaning less because of the following:
1. They are not qualified or have not had the experience to make their claims.
2. They are paid to make their claim, either free gifts of other forms of payment, I will leave that up to your imagination!!!
3. When they invade the privacy of others by marketing that is un-wanted, un-warranted, or un-needed in deceptive manner.
Next you asked: (Originally Posted by manwon
Not to mention that Rick is a great guy to deal with, and I am talking from experience. I have bought and resold a number of Ricks Mace Jump Break Cues through my pool hall over the last Three Years. My customers love them, and all I can say is buy one or get beat by one!!!!! This is not a statement that I make lightly!!!!
These are great cues made by a great guy!!!!!!
Should I take this as fact or should I take this as hype? Should I take this as a good opinion because you have a good reputation of 11 greenies? How do I know that's not an exaggeration? How is that different than someone else saying "It's the best cue.... Period!"? In my opinion, there is no difference and that's the basis of my discussion on hype.
To more effectively discuss the topic, I suppose I need clarification when you say: "It only becomes hype when we exaggerate the facts, in a manner that is deceptively used to influence the opinions of others." So if you would please give me an example of this. What are the facts you are referring to? )
First, in my post about the Rick Howard cues, this is not Hype, and it has nothing to do with my reputation. It is an opinion that can be quantified in the following manner:
1. It is the best Jump Break Cue I have ever used. ( are there others I have not used certainly, then why would I make this statement because it is what I believe) (How can I assess the quality of any pool cue, I have been involved in the industry for more than 25 years, and my area of interest is cue construction, and cue building.)
2. Rick Howard is not only a well respected Custom Cue Maker, he invented the Jump Break cue.
3. I have nether been contacted by Rick, and I am not being paid for my comments concerning this cue.
Next you ask the following: To more effectively discuss the topic, I suppose I need clarification when you say: "It only becomes hype when we exaggerate the facts, in a manner that is deceptively used to influence the opinions of others." So if you would please give me an example of this. What are the facts you are referring to?
I must hand it to you!!!
You are a really a very good Fisherman, however, I am an old fish who is not getting caught!!! To answer your question I would have to name - names, or post PM's to individuals and I refuse to make this about any person or group of people. That is not my intent, and I will not sacrifice my integrity by violating the confidence of others. On the above issue I will say for those who are involved and for those who are unsure, if the shoe fits wear it.
If someone is still uncertain I suggest they look in the mirror and ask themselves that question!!!
Thanks for your post!
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manwon said:
I applaud your thoughtful effort to entertain ideas from others. Sometimes, that is a great way to get good ideas you might not come up with. So far, I've only read your starter post and will not have time to read more tonight, but wanted to respond to this post before I try to read the rest.
I think there is a fine line between discontent and malintent and many people don't really know where to stop. I know I am normally a very positive person, but when offered the opportunity to complain, I am like most other folks... I usually get in line with my complaints. A lot of folks live to make someone unhappy, if they can. Others will do their best to ruin another's business, or to find a way to get more attention and get someone else put down, which makes the complainer look good and the target person look bad (in the eyes of the complainer). Because of all this, I think that offering a complaint forum is a bad idea. Trying to weed out the bad complaints from the true problems would be impossible. Most of all, many really good reputations (and possibly innocent lives) could be totally destroyed, due to one careless or vengeful person.
A lot of folks feed off the opportunity to destroy someone else. If this forum allowed such behavior, I believe they would lose a lot of good folks, due to them not wanting their reputation tossed. This forum has already been approaching those limits, as far as I'm concerned. There are a lot of good folks here, who only want to learn a little, help others and make new friends. I also know a few really good folks who refuse to post on the forum, because someone might unjustly attack.
I think there is only a limited amount of protection you can offer others and sometimes, that is to simply forewarn them of the dangers that exist and then, let them be adults and make their own decisions. However, I believe those kind of warnings should be handled very carefully, due to the lives and reputations which could possibly be damaged or destroyed.
There are at least 2 sides to every story and usually, the best storyteller is the most convincing, whether it's accurate, or not.
When you raise your kids, you teach them as much as possible about protecting themselves from the villains of the world. When, they move out, you pray you've taught them enough. There comes a time when you have to let them make their own mistakes and take the responsibility for themselves. You cannot protect them from all the dangers they'll face. The same goes for everyone else. And, some folks really need to learn things the hard way, or they don't learn them, at all.
Many of the people on this forum become your "friends," even though you may not have met them. You don't want to see any of them hurt, so you do what you can to protect them. At the same time, you have the responsibility of making sure you don't destroy a perfectly good person's reputation.
Another example: You can't tell the voters how to vote. They have to make their own decisions, according to the information supplied. It might not be the truth, but they have to decide for themselves. You can't stand at all the voting booths and vote for every person who comes to vote, no matter how much of a mistake you might think many of them are making. Either people take the time to learn more and make informed decisions, or they don't.
I think the feedback system is about as much as you can safely offer and nobody wants to leave bad feedback for anyone. But, the overall integrity of the buyer/seller is at stake and they need to remember that others rely on their feedback posts to help them make informed decisions about dealing with someone. Because we are humans, many are afraid of retaliation, if they leave bad feedback, so it doesn't matter how much they really want to tell the truth. The fear will lie for them. Sorry, but it's true and there's little that you can do to change it.
And, just in case nobody else has said so... Manwon, thank you very much for caring enough to try to find a way to protect us all from making some really bad mistakes. Your honest intentions are truly appreciated.
Gosh. I didn't meant to write so much. It's kinda late and my brain is wanting sleep...
Catahula said:Manwon raises some very legitimate issues. I have been here a very short time compared to most of the folks posting here. In that time though I have sifted through a lot of chaff to come up with some very worthy grains of wheat.
Regarding the buying and selling of products, as I have stated in previous posts, the list of AZ members that I would consider doing business with is a short list. That being said, the list is longer than the 1st day I discovered the forum.
Yes the stickies were informative.
Yes the ITrader is useful
but the bottom line is and will remain...
This is a "Public" forum and what that means to me is that any and all, possessing the electronic means necessary, can represent (or misrepresent) themselves and their wares any way they want to. It is left to the individual to sort through and determine the who, when and why of their dealings. Another unfortunate fact is, this forum is going to grow and as it grows more weeds will infiltrate as they always do.
One of the best thing about this forum is the remarkable job of self-policing that goes on.
This forum is not always neat and refined. Sometimes it is ugly. It is simply a microcosm of life, complete with greed & avarice, compassion & understanding, generosity and always...humor.
At the very very least...it is great entertainment.
I totally agree!!
cuejoey said:
Beautifully stated!
Varney Cues said:
Sheesh!! Is that what that comment about rep for sale (or buying rep) was all about? I've been wondering what I had missed.
Here is something I guess I need to confess. There are other forums where the rep doesn't seem to make any sense. Some folks have LOTS and some have one or two and nobody seems to have anything between. When I came here, I was fairly new to forums and there was nothing really clear in the rules or anywhere that explained the idea of the rep. I read and even wrote in a few threads about it. It still seemed more like a joke than anything else. I learned that as you say stuff folks agree with, or offer info or items that help them, you get rep. But, I also saw a few threads about free rep. I have to admit I joined in some of those threads. I was simply enjoying the forum and trying to get all the greenies, like everyone else seemed to be doing. It was more like game points, or something fun, like that. I have worked hard to earn most of the rep I have, but I definitely received a few points from "fun" threads. Sorry if that's a sin. It was never explained that way to me.
JesPiddlin said:
Thanks for your insight into this subject, I for one think you are a very wise individual. I also do not want to harm anyone directly, I also realise that being human is also being flawed. Sometimes our actions place us in positions we do not want to be in. Self reflection is the only way to find out when we have reached this point in our life. Sometimes we come to the realisation on our own, and sometimes we need some help to understand that we are always not correct in our veiws, in our deeds, and in the way we are preceived by others.
However, I am certain of one thing there is no better feeling than the one we get when we have done the right thing. This is something that we all experience along with our individual failures, and there is nothing anyone can do for us that equals this.
Thanks and have a great night!!!!!
A Rolled Up Newspaper Can Deter Bad Behavior... imo
"All Members Please Give Your Opinion On The Following Forum Behavior / Issues"
I'm a private person, truly I am and I'd prefer not to make my opinions public...... imo
Doug
*Issues ? I have Issues. Oh boy, do I have Issues. You want to hear Issues ? Don't get me started... imo
.
"All Members Please Give Your Opinion On The Following Forum Behavior / Issues"
I'm a private person, truly I am and I'd prefer not to make my opinions public...... imo
Doug
*Issues ? I have Issues. Oh boy, do I have Issues. You want to hear Issues ? Don't get me started... imo
.
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Hi Craig,
To continue our discussion:
Ok, I agree and I'll give you 2 & 3. But #1 is highly debatable. I'm using you as an example because you state you have 25 years experience in the industry. Nothing personal as I could choose anyone else that has the same amount of experience. So basically you are saying that a person that has been in the industry for say 1-2 years, is not qualified to form an opinion on a product and recommend anything.
I have ZERO ties to the business side of the industry, but I have been playing (and badly I might add) for the better part of 25 years. However, I have not studied the "blue book" and I have only been a member here for a couple of years. So I have no credibility to "hype" or recommend a product that I use? I have no right to mention a product because I am not an industry insider? (Again I am only using us for the example)
Basically, newer members, younger members, industry outsiders, etc can't form an opinion on a product they use? That may or may not be the intent of your statement, but that's sure how it comes across.
Again, I am not picking on you or Mr Howard. These are just examples for our discussion.
So, when I say or recommend KVs J/B cue it's not hype because I can quantify my opinion? Because:
1. It IS the best J/B cue I have ever used. I make this statement because it's what I believe. I have used others as well. (How can I assess the quality of a pool cue? I have been playing for a long time, and pool it's my area of interest - I am not at all saying I am an expert and am far from it. )
2. This really should have no bearing on your opinion. Because Mr Howard invented the thing, doesn't make it the best. KV improved upon the J/B cue, and that doesn't qualify as making it the best in my opinion.
3. I do not get contacted to make my comments, and I am not being paid for my comments about KV cues.
Another example: If a new person says "My mop handle is the best damn J/B cue I have ever used!" and he/she makes this statement because that's what they believe, and they are not being contacted or paid by "Mop & Glo" and Mop & Glo is a well respected mop maker and mop & glo invented or enhanced the mop handle.
The truth to the matter is it still doesn't make it FACT. It's the opinion of one person, and whether in the "mop" industry or not, they are still entitled to their opinion and to write about it and/or shout it from the roof tops if they want.
Another truth, like it or not, is ALL three of these examples are OPINIONS and as opinions, NONE of these are any more important than the other two and none of the opinions are factually right or wrong. They are just opinions. Also, in my eyes, each one of them is HYPING the product.
If you disagree that is your right and we'll have to "agree to disagree" as the saying goes.
I guess what I would say to the "qualified and experienced" statement is this: If you want a place where only those that have a pedigree and pass an application process can participate, create a place and have your own "Mensa" group. With the traffic this forum generates, it probably isn't going to turn into that any time soon.
To be honest, I am not fishing and don't care. I am not asking you to violate confidences that have been entrusted to you. I simply would like a general example of what you are referring to. What types of facts do you feel are being exaggerated? That way I can better discuss the topic. No more, no less.
This has turned into a good thread. Let's keep it up.
Craig and I are only discussing a small portion of the issues presented in original thread. Are there any comments on the other items?
Regards,
The other Craig.
To continue our discussion:
manwon said:The hype in question here is type where people sacrifice their integrity to promote and item that is not better than other like items being marketed. Where a persons integrity is sacrificed, is when their endorsement is meaning less because of the following:
1. They are not qualified or have not had the experience to make their claims.
2. They are paid to make their claim, either free gifts of other forms of payment, I will leave that up to your imagination!!!
3. When they invade the privacy of others by marketing that is un-wanted, un-warranted, or un-needed in deceptive manner.
Ok, I agree and I'll give you 2 & 3. But #1 is highly debatable. I'm using you as an example because you state you have 25 years experience in the industry. Nothing personal as I could choose anyone else that has the same amount of experience. So basically you are saying that a person that has been in the industry for say 1-2 years, is not qualified to form an opinion on a product and recommend anything.
I have ZERO ties to the business side of the industry, but I have been playing (and badly I might add
) for the better part of 25 years. However, I have not studied the "blue book" and I have only been a member here for a couple of years. So I have no credibility to "hype" or recommend a product that I use? I have no right to mention a product because I am not an industry insider? (Again I am only using us for the example)Basically, newer members, younger members, industry outsiders, etc can't form an opinion on a product they use? That may or may not be the intent of your statement, but that's sure how it comes across.
manwon said:(Your question
Next you asked: (Originally Posted by manwon
Not to mention that Rick is a great guy to deal with, and I am talking from experience. I have bought and resold a number of Ricks Mace Jump Break Cues through my pool hall over the last Three Years. My customers love them, and all I can say is buy one or get beat by one!!!!! This is not a statement that I make lightly!!!!
These are great cues made by a great guy!!!!!!
Should I take this as fact or should I take this as hype? Should I take this as a good opinion because you have a good reputation of 11 greenies? How do I know that's not an exaggeration? How is that different than someone else saying "It's the best cue.... Period!"? In my opinion, there is no difference and that's the basis of my discussion on hype.
First, in my post about the Rick Howard cues, this is not Hype, and it has nothing to do with my reputation. It is an opinion that can be quantified in the following manner:
1. It is the best Jump Break Cue I have ever used. ( are there others I have not used certainly, then why would I make this statement because it is what I believe) (How can I assess the quality of any pool cue, I have been involved in the industry for more than 25 years, and my area of interest is cue construction, and cue building.)
2. Rick Howard is not only a well respected Custom Cue Maker, he invented the Jump Break cue.
3. I have nether been contacted by Rick, and I am not being paid for my comments concerning this cue.
Again, I am not picking on you or Mr Howard. These are just examples for our discussion.
So, when I say or recommend KVs J/B cue it's not hype because I can quantify my opinion? Because:
1. It IS the best J/B cue I have ever used. I make this statement because it's what I believe. I have used others as well. (How can I assess the quality of a pool cue? I have been playing for a long time, and pool it's my area of interest - I am not at all saying I am an expert and am far from it. )
2. This really should have no bearing on your opinion. Because Mr Howard invented the thing, doesn't make it the best. KV improved upon the J/B cue, and that doesn't qualify as making it the best in my opinion.
3. I do not get contacted to make my comments, and I am not being paid for my comments about KV cues.
Another example: If a new person says "My mop handle is the best damn J/B cue I have ever used!" and he/she makes this statement because that's what they believe, and they are not being contacted or paid by "Mop & Glo" and Mop & Glo is a well respected mop maker and mop & glo invented or enhanced the mop handle.
The truth to the matter is it still doesn't make it FACT. It's the opinion of one person, and whether in the "mop" industry or not, they are still entitled to their opinion and to write about it and/or shout it from the roof tops if they want.
Another truth, like it or not, is ALL three of these examples are OPINIONS and as opinions, NONE of these are any more important than the other two and none of the opinions are factually right or wrong. They are just opinions. Also, in my eyes, each one of them is HYPING the product.
If you disagree that is your right and we'll have to "agree to disagree" as the saying goes.
I guess what I would say to the "qualified and experienced" statement is this: If you want a place where only those that have a pedigree and pass an application process can participate, create a place and have your own "Mensa" group. With the traffic this forum generates, it probably isn't going to turn into that any time soon.
manwon said:Next you ask the following: To more effectively discuss the topic, I suppose I need clarification when you say: "It only becomes hype when we exaggerate the facts, in a manner that is deceptively used to influence the opinions of others." So if you would please give me an example of this. What are the facts you are referring to?
I must hand it to you!!!
On the above issue I will say for those who are involved and for those who are unsure, if the shoe fits wear it.
If someone is still uncertain I suggest they look in the mirror and ask themselves that question!!!
Thanks for your post!
To be honest, I am not fishing and don't care. I am not asking you to violate confidences that have been entrusted to you. I simply would like a general example of what you are referring to. What types of facts do you feel are being exaggerated? That way I can better discuss the topic. No more, no less.
This has turned into a good thread. Let's keep it up.
Craig and I are only discussing a small portion of the issues presented in original thread. Are there any comments on the other items?
Regards,
The other Craig.
Irish634 said:Hi Craig,
To continue our discussion:
Ok, I agree and I'll give you 2 & 3. But #1 is highly debatable. I'm using you as an example because you state you have 25 years experience in the industry. Nothing personal as I could choose anyone else that has the same amount of experience. So basically you are saying that a person that has been in the industry for say 1-2 years, is not qualified to form an opinion on a product and recommend anything.
I have ZERO ties to the business side of the industry, but I have been playing (and badly I might add
Basically, newer members, younger members, industry outsiders, etc can't form an opinion on a product they use? That may or may not be the intent of your statement, but that's sure how it comes across.
Again, I am not picking on you or Mr Howard. These are just examples for our discussion.
So, when I say or recommend KVs J/B cue it's not hype because I can quantify my opinion? Because:
1. It IS the best J/B cue I have ever used. I make this statement because it's what I believe. I have used others as well. (How can I assess the quality of a pool cue? I have been playing for a long time, and pool it's my area of interest - I am not at all saying I am an expert and am far from it. )
2. This really should have no bearing on your opinion. Because Mr Howard invented the thing, doesn't make it the best. KV improved upon the J/B cue, and that doesn't qualify as making it the best in my opinion.
3. I do not get contacted to make my comments, and I am not being paid for my comments about KV cues.
Another example: If a new person says "My mop handle is the best damn J/B cue I have ever used!" and he/she makes this statement because that's what they believe, and they are not being contacted or paid by "Mop & Glo" and Mop & Glo is a well respected mop maker and mop & glo invented or enhanced the mop handle.
The truth to the matter is it still doesn't make it FACT. It's the opinion of one person, and whether in the "mop" industry or not, they are still entitled to their opinion and to write about it and/or shout it from the roof tops if they want.
Another truth, like it or not, is ALL three of these examples are OPINIONS and as opinions, NONE of these are any more important than the other two and none of the opinions are factually right or wrong. They are just opinions. Also, in my eyes, each one of them is HYPING the product.
If you disagree that is your right and we'll have to "agree to disagree" as the saying goes.
I guess what I would say to the "qualified and experienced" statement is this: If you want a place where only those that have a pedigree and pass an application process can participate, create a place and have your own "Mensa" group. With the traffic this forum generates, it probably isn't going to turn into that any time soon.
To be honest, I am not fishing and don't care. I am not asking you to violate confidences that have been entrusted to you. I simply would like a general example of what you are referring to. What types of facts do you feel are being exaggerated? That way I can better discuss the topic. No more, no less.
This has turned into a good thread. Let's keep it up.
Craig and I are only discussing a small portion of the issues presented in original thread. Are there any comments on the other items?
Regards,
The other Craig.
This thread and these incredible posts have no place in the Main Forum. They make way too much sense. It's nice to see people discuss things without throwing someone else under the bus.
JoeyA
manwon said:
Although I don't buy/sell here on a regular basis, I've given these some thought.
I know this has been brought up before, but what about the following process for transactions:
- Buyer/Seller agree on price, S/H, method, etc
- Buyer transfers funds to an escrow type account. (Via any desired method)
- Escrow manager notifies Seller (and buyer) that funds are received and the product may be shipped.
- Seller ships
- Seller notifies escrow manager and buyer that shipment has been made.
- Buyer has 3 days from receipt to inspect the product. Within the 3 day period, must either file a dispute, or tell the escrow manager the product is accepted and to release the funds. (No communication at the end of 3 days would constitute acceptance in my opinion.
I know it's a flawed idea, and would probably cost $$ to get properly set up, but was just thinking aloud.