Alternate break is ruining pool

[Swighey]

The destroying players' rhythm argument makes no sense to me - surely this makes it more challenging to run the table every time you break if the break alternates? Which in turn makes it more important to hold your break because a miss or a mistake can be punished? Players being in the zone, totally focussed and not missing as a result is conducive to good straight pool. But in a game where the object is to pot 8, 9 or 10 balls to notch one up on the scoreboard, it cannot be good for pool.

I buy the arguments about seeing players run x-packs being exciting but don't buy these same arguments as favourIng winner breaks being good for the game (the x-packs are only exciting when they actually happen). Play earn the break (win two in a row, one "on your serve" and one "against your serve" - and then keep it if you run out) and it becomes fair and actually pretty excitng as winner breaks can then happen at anytime during the race without damaging the purity of the game and the way the game is perceived by interested people who already take other games seriously.

 

[Swighey]

Instead of Willie Mosconi running 526, would you prefer that he has to give up the table
after running 50?
If I don’t miss at 9-ball, why should I have to give up the table?

Because you are playing 9 ball. You pot the 9 you win. Straight pool- you are playing to a predetermined ball count. You reach it you win. The logic is different.

 

[garczar]

This isn't tennis where it boils down to holding serve...that's so boring. Pool is about stacking racks together.

The last thing I feel like doing after running a rack is handing over the break and taking a seat. You'll have to rip the cueball out of my hands.

One question: how many tournaments do play in? Reason i ask is alt. brk. is as much(or more) a financial issue for organizers. I know of quite a few tournaments in my area(midwest) that wouldn't survive on winner break. People won't attend(with all the costs involved) an even where they may not even get a shot. I applaud Greg for going OldSchoolPool at DCC but most tournaments can't risk it.

 

[Hobo]

Instead of Willie Mosconi running 526, would you prefer that he has to give up the table
after running 50?
If I don’t miss at 9-ball, why should I have to give up the table?

Totally right? "sry Willie, we are going to have to stop you at 50 to give your opponent a chance" lol

 

[Swighey]

Pool is about stacking racks together.

This is irrelevant to which format is better.

The last thing I feel like doing after running a rack is handing over the break and taking a seat. You'd have to rip the cueball out of my hands.

Me too. This is why the game has rules.

Breaking is a privilege not a right.

Yes it's a privilege - for both players. It's certainly shouldn't be the right of any player to hold the break.

 

[Hobo]

One question: how many tournaments do play in? Reason i ask is alt. brk. is as much(or more) a financial issue for organizers. I know of quite a few tournaments in my area(midwest) that wouldn't survive on winner break. People won't attend(with all the costs involved) an even where they may not even get a shot. I applaud Greg for going OldSchoolPool at DCC but most tournaments can't risk it.

These are the same people who ask for handicaps, or won't show up if a pro is around because they think they won't end up in the money. That's a losers way of thinking. I've lost hundreds and hundreds of dollars gambling with better players in my life...even with pros I wouldn't take any weight. There were times I would feel like their own personal bank machine...but you pay to learn in this game...they ain't going to give it away.

 

[Swighey]

Totally right? "sry Willie, we are going to have to stop you at 50 to give your opponent a chance" lol

Again, you are not playing to 50 (well you could be) - you are playing to a predetermined ball count. If you are playing straight pool as best of 3 sets then you would play alternate break. Just like you would in 9 ball or any other one rack game.

 

[Swighey]

These are the same people who ask for handicaps, or won't show up if a pro is around because they think they won't end up in the money. That's a losers way of thinking. I've lost hundreds and hundreds of dollars gambling with better players in my life...even with pros I wouldn't take any weight. Sometimes I would feel like their own personal atm machine...but you pay to learn in this game...they ain't going to give it away.

I prefer alternate break and no handicaps. Does this mean I am not the same person as myself?

 

[Hobo]

I prefer alternate break and no handicaps. Does this mean I am not the same person as myself?

Alternate break favours the players who don't string together racks.

 

[garczar]

These are the same people who ask for handicaps, or won't show up if a pro is around because they think they won't end up in the money. That's a losers way of thinking. I've lost hundreds and hundreds of dollars gambling with better players in my life...even with pros I wouldn't take any weight. There were times I would feel like their own personal bank machine...but you pay to learn in this game...they ain't going to give it away.

You're either rich or you don't play many tournaments. I speak from first-hand knowledge. A LOT of tournaments in this country would either go away or see a BIG drop in entries if it was winner break. Believe me, i like winner break, roll-out(2foul) 9ball the best. Its how 9ball used to be played before another tournament saving rule(one-foul) came along. If you like wb just keep matching-up 'cause most tourn. are going to be ab.

 

[chefjeff]

I'm glad at the derby they stick with winner breaks. Anyway, on that note...what happened to 5 and 6 packs...or even 3 and 4 packs? I think I saw one 2 pack in this match. Who are these guys? Is the Derby an open? I should be guaranteed in the money with that crowd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL_LguXG1BY

Yeah, nothing more exciting than watching ONE Person play in a TWO Person match.

If it was football, for example that had scorer gets the ball again:

Hey, New England made a touchdown....I can't wait to see them do it again and make it a 6-pack! Who were they playing? I dunno



Jeff Livingston

 

[garczar]

Alternate break favours the players who don't string together racks.

You have any hard data on these "rack stringers" are and when said packages were run? I'm only asking because i've been playing and watching pool(live,video and streamed) for about 40yrs and haven't noticed that many big packs run. Most i've seen in person(big table) was the 7 by Scotty T. and on a bar-box was 14 by David Matlock. That being said, the best day i've heard of was told to me by the man who did it, Buddy Hall. I asked him what was his best day ever and he said in one 10hr day at his home hall he ran one 8, two 7's, three 6's and a couple of 4's. Get 'ya some. That's crazy.

 

[chefjeff]

Exactly! I think the alternate break has destroyed the players rhythm. Granted the 90's had buckets...but you would see 3 and 4 packs regularly.

The most excitng match is when loser breaks and each player runs out.

Then you get to see TWO 6 packs or whatever with a close score that makes spectating fun!

Maybe making spectating fun might draw in more money for pool?



Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Exactly. Most events in 80's-90's used tables with 4.75" corner pockets. B&R's of 4+ were fairly common. OP talks about 5's&6's(or more), well those have always kinda hard to come by regardless of pocket size. I saw ScottyTownsend come with a 7 on a GC(4.75") and watched Earl's video of the 10(11 actually) at CJ's. Earl also put a 10 on Danny Medina in Wichita back in the day. I didn't witness it but i had a couple of good friends that sweated that deal. Danny never got to hit the cueball. They flipped, Earl won and BAM, a 10pack.

This is what I was talking about, above.

Imagine IF Danny got to shoot, too, and he also was running racks and the score was tied after every other rack!

Now THAT would be exciting...to both sets of fans, and to anyone who didn't even know either player. Hello?

If you wanna see a pro run rack after rack, watch him practice.



Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Instead of Willie Mosconi running 526, would you prefer that he has to give up the table
after running 50?
If I don’t miss at 9-ball, why should I have to give up the table?

Because it is a match, not an exhibition. You know, the other guy sitting there, too?



Jeff Livingston

 

[Swighey]

Alternate break favours the players who don't string together racks.

That's one way of looking at it. If you choose to look at it that way then I would challenge those players to run out all of their breaking games in the fairer, alternate break, format. I'd also challenge them to win by 2.

 

[Hobo]

You have any hard data on these "rack stringers" are and when said packages were run? I'm only asking because i've been playing and watching pool(live,video and streamed) for about 40yrs and haven't noticed that many big packs run. Most i've seen in person(big table) was the 7 by Scotty T. and on a bar-box was 14 by David Matlock. That being said, the best day i've heard of was told to me by the man who did it, Buddy Hall. I asked him what was his best day ever and he said in one 10hr day at his home hall he ran one 8, two 7's, three 6's and a couple of 4's. Get 'ya some. That's crazy.

Sitting in the chair sucks...its punishment. Look at Earl in his chair...lol...he hates it. It's bad enough if you end up there because of a mistake on your part...don't make it just part of the game. A player should evolve to despise sitting in the chair...it represents failure...it represents getting owned. It's the last place on earth you should want to be...THAT is the thinking of a winner. Earl would not have become the player his is, or Efren if they just played each rack knowing they are going to sit in the chair afterwards. No, they played knowing that if they f up, it could be their last opportunity at the table.

Also, I'm a purist...the natural rhythm of the game is disrupted with alternating breaks. There is a certain ebb and flow to any match that alternating break interrupts.

 

[Swighey]

Sitting in the chair sucks...its punishment. Look at Earl in his chair...lol...he hates it. It's bad enough if you end up there because of a mistake on your part...don't make it just part of the game. A player should evolve to despise sitting in the chair...it represents failure...it represents getting owned. It's the last place on earth you should want to be...THAT is the thinking of a winner. Earl would not have become the player his is, or Efren if they just played each rack knowing they are going to sit in the chair afterwards. No, they played knowing that if they f up, it could be their last opportunity at the table.

Also, I'm a purist...the natural rhythm of the game is disrupted with alternating breaks. There is a certain ebb and flow to any match that alternating break interrupts.

And there was me thinking Earl and Efren became winners because they had insane amounts of natural talent and they practised a lot.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

100% agreed, alternate break is awful for pool.

Alternate break is socialist pool.

Alternate break is boring.

There are many reason for its rise - I understand that, but as a solution it is worse than the problem.

Much of it has to do with racking and breaking issues. It is a way to mitigate the breaking issues in the game of 9ball because the cold hard reality is that the breaking issues cannot be solved in any practical way. It's also another way to help protect top dogs from getting wiped out early in a tournament. In say, a 128 player bracket, a 120th ranked player could get hot and put up a 6 pack in a race to 9 against a top 10 player. This can be very difficult to recover from. This is not the norm, but is far from uncommon either. On the other hand, winner breaks allows for unbelievable comebacks. We almost never see amazing comebacks anymore, because alternate break is ATTRITION style game.

Alternate break still means the break is super important, and also player's ability to run out from the break is still equally important. But it breaks it up. Keeps the scores tighter. You can still run a 6 pack - it just means the other guy will have his chances in between LOL. This does not make matches more exciting. I think this experiment has proved a failure. If anything, matches are more boring.

It sucks the suspense out of the game, and a lot of the passions. With winner breaks, missing a ball when it is 6-6 in a race to 9, could mean that was your last shot. That is suspenseful. Will that player ever get back to the table? For the shooter, higher pressure. Instead of just having to win their rack - they're feeling the pressure to run out 2 more racks because missing could be their last time at the table. This made for excitement. This lets them off the hook, because all they have to do is win that rack and not think past that. Because the other guy will break next and that's the rules. How stale!

Alternate break implies everyone should get a chance to play a guaranteed number of racks. Why? Where did this entitlement come from?

Don't like getting blanked and run out on?

Everyone gets an equal chance -- at the LAG.

DON'T LOSE THE LAG.


It is no coincidence at all, that the rise and mainstreaming of alternate break in the last 20 years has been in large part due to the rise of European pool, and the decline of American pool. Euros have more events, more television, more funding - their money, their rules. This influences the global scene, and we're in the dark ages of alternate break.

Culturally, American 9 ball is more cut-throat, fast, passionate and daring. Taking chances for the glory.

European 9 ball, is more conservative, methodical, systemic, slow ....Playing the percentages for the win.


Yeah, in the end, - statistically, they win more tourney matches.....that no one wants to watch.


GG

 

[garczar]

Sitting in the chair sucks...its punishment. Look at Earl in his chair...lol...he hates it. It's bad enough if you end up there because of a mistake on your part...don't make it just part of the game. A player should evolve to despise sitting in the chair...it represents failure...it represents getting owned. It's the last place on earth you should want to be...THAT is the thinking of a winner. Earl would not have become the player his is, or Efren if they just played each rack knowing they are going to sit in the chair afterwards. No, they played knowing that if they f up, it could be their last opportunity at the table.

Also, I'm a purist...the natural rhythm of the game is disrupted with alternating breaks. There is a certain ebb and flow to any match that alternating break interrupts.

I hear ya' brother and i can dig it but ask 20 tourn. organizers their take and they're going to echo what i've said about turn out numbers. Looks like DCC and the US Open will be waiting for your entry $$$. Good luck.