american pool talent wasting away.....

V

vapoolplayer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i'm here bored, so i thought i'd post some food for thought and debate:


i'm of the opinion that with the state of pool right now (no money, sponsors, hard to make a living, etc, etc......) that a TON of american pool talent is being wasted away. if the sport was more like baseball or football, kids would be growing up playing pool and those who had the natural talent for it would find out sooner than they would (some never do find that they have the talent because they never played their entire lives).

i think their may be several people that have the ability to play as good as archer and reyes, but that will never manifest because they were never exposed to the sport, or were exposed too late.

example:
i didn't start playing seriously till i was 21 because my parents didn't think a pool hall was a place for me to be when i was living at home. i moved out at 17, went in the military, and played a little every now and then. i liked the game but didn't have much time to play. then when i got out, i started playing like a madman, as much as possible and learned (still learning) very very quickly. now not very long after, i'm playing everyday for 5 and 6 hours a day, and i can hold my own against the "A" players in the area.........

point being, that possibly if i had started playing, even at 17 i would have been playing for 5 years and my game would be theoretically 5 times as good. let alone if had been playing since i was 5 or 6.

if pool was a more popular and lucrative sport, maybe i (or someone else) would have been encouraged to play by my parents and the true potential could be seen............

my overall point is that i think there are MANY MANY people out there, that never will reach their full talent potential because the state of pool right now......perhaps when you can really make a living at this game we will see several reyes and archers......


thoughts and comments please


thanks
 
Good post VA! I think if they could get high school kids to play pool as part of their PE curriculum that pool might have a chance to become more mainstream. You are absolutely correct that there is probably tons of potential talent out there that we don't or won't ever know about because of the bad reputation that pool halls have. I think that the game itself is so intoxicating that kids would opt to play pool over going to school or doing their homework, at least I know that would have been my problem.
 
Another example is the "Dave & Buster's" franchise of up-market family friendly restaurant/arcades where kids play with their friends and parents in a "clean" atmosphere, and money is raked in hand over fist. ($20 per hour for a table at the weekend in the branch near me in California).

But this is not where great pool players come from and I don't know if this leads to success for the sport of Billiards and professional players or simply for large faceless entertainment corporations.

Now another way to look at vapoolplayer's post is this - His parents were ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. He should not have been hanging around a Pool Hall at 17, because if he had realized his talent then and started beating all the best local players he would have been tempted to "go Pro"; go on the Road scuffling up money games to finance tournament entries that, unless he became a top 10 internationnal-level player, would not pay back enough to cover his costs and so push him back into gambling again. At least he did (presumably?) graduate high school and did his miltary service so he now has some chance of a career other than Pool or a paper hat job.
 
vapoolplayer said:
i'm here bored, so i thought i'd post some food for thought and debate:


i'm of the opinion that with the state of pool right now (no money, sponsors, hard to make a living, etc, etc......) that a TON of american pool talent is being wasted away. if the sport was more like baseball or football, kids would be growing up playing pool and those who had the natural talent for it would find out sooner than they would (some never do find that they have the talent because they never played their entire lives).

i think their may be several people that have the ability to play as good as archer and reyes, but that will never manifest because they were never exposed to the sport, or were exposed too late.

example:
i didn't start playing seriously till i was 21 because my parents didn't think a pool hall was a place for me to be when i was living at home. i moved out at 17, went in the military, and played a little every now and then. i liked the game but didn't have much time to play. then when i got out, i started playing like a madman, as much as possible and learned (still learning) very very quickly. now not very long after, i'm playing everyday for 5 and 6 hours a day, and i can hold my own against the "A" players in the area.........

point being, that possibly if i had started playing, even at 17 i would have been playing for 5 years and my game would be theoretically 5 times as good. let alone if had been playing since i was 5 or 6.

if pool was a more popular and lucrative sport, maybe i (or someone else) would have been encouraged to play by my parents and the true potential could be seen............

my overall point is that i think there are MANY MANY people out there, that never will reach their full talent potential because the state of pool right now......perhaps when you can really make a living at this game we will see several reyes and archers......


thoughts and comments please


thanks
Click to expand...

I am also a very, very, very big pool fanatic. I started playing for fun at about 14 or 15 yrs old. I didn't start really shooting pool til about 19, which was almost 2 years ago. Now I work at a pool hall. :)

I agree that pool deserves more time in the spotlight. There probably is a lot of great talent out there that goes undiscovered and unrecognized. Maybe someday soon, there will be more money and sponsorships to give the sport of pool the attn it deserves.
 
analysis of the state of pool are full of what ifs. it seems to be the only staple that pool can brag about. sure,,,,the more that play, the better the chance of better players. but challengers to the top players like strickland and reyes???,,,hardly so, i think. certainly there would be MORE better players, but not more that would challenge the cream. the cream is the cream.

there is a limit to potential. you had a lot to learn, so your skills skyrocketed early on,,,,,but you level out as you reach your limit. it's the same reasoning women athletes (track etc) use to show that if they continue to improve at their present pace, that someday in the distant distant future, they will match the men. never happen.
 
bruin70 said:
analysis of the state of pool are full of what ifs. it seems to be the only staple that pool can brag about. sure,,,,the more that play, the better the chance of better players. but challengers to the top players like strickland and reyes???,,,hardly so, i think. certainly there would be MORE better players, but not more that would challenge the cream. the cream is the cream.
.
Click to expand...

i have to disagree with you here......if you looke at numbers, there are millions of americans that probably will never even pick up a cue right now.....if that many people will never try the game then there will be potential stricklands that will never even know they have talent at the game. take baseball for example, just about every boy in the us has played on a little league team at one time, they found out they liked it, and then some found out they had talent for it, thus you have people like griffey jr., bonds, mcguire, sosa, rodriguez, jeter, etc, etc.......now, just think if only half of the kids that play baseball now played, you wouldn't see as many great players.

if every child in the U.S. played on a pool league (i know it won't happen, just an example) then you would see more "cream" as you put it. i'm not saying you would see a 100 players like reyes, but you would definitely see many more people challenging for the top of the totem pole.

thanks
 
i'm of the opinion that with the state of pool right now (no money, sponsors, hard to make a living, etc, etc......) that a TON of american pool talent is being wasted away. if the sport was more like baseball or football, kids would be growing up playing pool and those who had the natural talent for it would find out sooner than they would (some never do find that they have the talent because they never played their entire lives

I don't want to start a fire but...so what...Most people who bowl on leagues can't name the top 5 bowlers in the world, I over heard a couple of league pool players trying to figure out whos name was on a Cue tec in the display case, "Eric something". Don't get me wrong I love pool and play everyday and have friends who are pros,I go to pro tournaments and support the game. But it is a participation sport like bowling. Anytime someone choses to try to make a living outside the box of 9 to 5 it is going to be tough, whether it's pool, bowling ,horseshoes etc. Yes I think it's a shame there isn't a tour with two stops a month with 10k first prizes, that would be great I would support it all I could. Having a natural talent for something and being able to do that for aliving are not the same thing. I think many people live their lives without discovering or being able to go after their "natural talent"

Andy
 
bruin70 said:
(snip)

there is a limit to potential. you had a lot to learn, so your skills skyrocketed early on,,,,,but you level out as you reach your limit. it's the same reasoning women athletes (track etc) use to show that if they continue to improve at their present pace, that someday in the distant distant future, they will match the men. never happen.
Click to expand...

And I have to disagree with this part of your message.

How could you possibly know what another's limits are?

And, could it be that "limits" are not real, but created in the mind? And, if created in the mind, could they not be destroyed in the mind, too? How?...by integrating honest processes into one's thinking.

Jeff Livingston
 
Hi,

Interesting that this topic should surface today.

Yesterday, myself and my tour traveling companion had this conversation with some local players. He offered this comparison: "if you brought Tiger Woods to a local golf club and charged admission you'd get 25,000 people to come; if you brought Efron Reyes or Johnny Archer to a local pool room and charged admission (and it better not be to much) you'd get maybe 30 or 40 people to show up."

These were very wise and saddening words.

JR
 
chefjeff said:
And I have to disagree with this part of your message.

How could you possibly know what another's limits are?

And, could it be that "limits" are not real, but created in the mind? And, if created in the mind, could they not be destroyed in the mind, too? How?...by integrating honest processes into one's thinking.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

I agree! Limits are created in one's own mind through negative thoughts and others' negative words. A good friend of mine had a tremendous amount of pool talent, but due to lack of support and a discouraging attitude from family members, she chose to give it up. The question I ask myself is if it had been another sport or game, would her family have been more supportive? In my opinion, there are many others who never reached their full potential.

Christyd
 
VAPOOLPLAYER: I completly agree, I grew up playing golf from around the age of 8 years old, I played through high school college ect. I still keep a handi cap of around 5. I picked up pool just over a year ago, and have been playing non stop. I wish I would have had the oportunity to be able to play it besides at a bar when I was 21. Even if it was more telavised kids/people would see it and want to play.
 
chefjeff said:
And I have to disagree with this part of your message.

How could you possibly know what another's limits are?

And, could it be that "limits" are not real, but created in the mind? And, if created in the mind, could they not be destroyed in the mind, too? How?...by integrating honest processes into one's thinking.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...


well, you don't know what your limits are until you push them, for sure. however, are you implying that potential is limitless, only limited by the mind or whatever???

for all practical purposes, potential has limits. that's why vince carter will never be michael jordan, no matter how much he tries, and i will never be reyes.

you never KNOW what the limits are,,,,theoretically. it is a curve that flattens out. if you play 8 hours 24/7 and find your game has flatten out with incrementally minimal changes over 6 years, you can say "yes, i'm still improving", but it's not realistic if you don't know what your potential is by that time. you won't be improving at the same rate you were starting out. i thought my women's track example was clear. it would be like defining pi,,,,how many decimal places do you NEED to go.

it sounds like we are on opposite sides, but we are not. i agree with you. any improvement no matter how incremental is good. and if those slight changes are what keeps you interested, then that's all you need.
 
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DeadAim said:
Hi,

Interesting that this topic should surface today.

Yesterday, myself and my tour traveling companion had this conversation with some local players. He offered this comparison: "if you brought Tiger Woods to a local golf club and charged admission you'd get 25,000 people to come; if you brought Efron Reyes or Johnny Archer to a local pool room and charged admission (and it better not be to much) you'd get maybe 30 or 40 people to show up."

These were very wise and saddening words.

JR
Click to expand...

If pool were some huge sport, with tons of media coverage, then those same 25,000 people would show up for Efren or Johnny. It isn't that people are so enamored by Tiger's play, which would be well deserved if they were, but it's all of the media hype and coverage that makes it exciting enough for people to want to go out and spend their time trying to get a glimpse of him. Take all of the cameras and hype away, in effect, take all of the "excitement" away, and you'd have the same situation where only the die-hard golfers and golf fans would show up.

Flame-Retardant: JMO/JMHO/IMO/IMHO/FWIW :D
 
bruin70 said:
well, you don't know what your limits are until you push them, for sure. however, are you implying that potential is limitless, only limited by the mind or whatever???

for all practical purposes, potential has limits. that's why vince carter will never be michael jordan, no matter how much he tries, and i will never be reyes.

you never KNOW what the limits are,,,,theoretically. it is a curve that flattens out. if you play 8 hours 24/7 and find your game has flatten out with incrementally minimal changes over 6 years, you can say "yes, i'm still improving", but it's not realistic if you don't know what your potential is by that time. you won't be improving at the same rate you were starting out. i thought my women's track example was clear. it would be like defining pi,,,,how many decimal places do you NEED to go.

it sounds like we are on opposite sides, but we are not. i agree with you. any improvement no matter how incremental is good. and if those slight changes are what keeps you interested, then that's all you need.
Click to expand...

I'm with you, bruin70, and I didn't mean to jump on you personally. I'm sorry if it was taken that way. I was, among other things, trying to keep my/our attitudes high.

Physical potential can definitely be inborn, as this article shows:

http://www.reason.com/rb/rb020205.shtml

With that said, the guy that wrote that article and many others have written a lot on improving human potential via science. These advances may make your examples obsolete, and that was part of my point.

You see, I'm kinda crazy about the future and its potentials and...I'm almost afraid to post this here, but I see where about 90% of us alive today will have the choice to not die and have a youthful body forever. How? Consider medical advances of, say, the last 100 years and how they are coming faster and faster. What advances will occur within our "normal" lifetimes? What if these advances only came once a year or so but would add maybe 10 more years to one's life? The answer: biological immortality.

How good could you get if you practiced for 1,000,000 years or so? And what would an "early" start in pool be?...15 years old, 50 years old, 500 years old...?

Seriously,

Jeff Livingston
 
Jimmy M. said:
If pool were some huge sport, with tons of media coverage, then those same 25,000 people would show up for Efren or Johnny. It isn't that people are so enamored by Tiger's play, which would be well deserved if they were, but it's all of the media hype and coverage that makes it exciting enough for people to want to go out and spend their time trying to get a glimpse of him. Take all of the cameras and hype away, in effect, take all of the "excitement" away, and you'd have the same situation where only the die-hard golfers and golf fans would show up.

Flame-Retardant: JMO/JMHO/IMO/IMHO/FWIW :D
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Right, but let's not forget that golf was drawing large galleries in the late 1950's and early 1960's, when golfers were still barely scratching out a living. People weren't coming because there was big money in golf, they came to see Arnold Palmer. Arnie, by leading the way and by convincing his professional golfing colleagues to follow his lead of courteous, gentlemanly behavior, in which the games fans and sponsors came first, set his sport up for success. Arnie made golf irresistable. Without Arnie, there is no Tiger woods.

Pool is just the opposite, when anybody conducts him/herself in a way that takes the sport a step further from respectability, the number of apologists for the perpetrator is downright disheartening. This just about ensures that efforts to make pool respectable enough to attract the right kind of corporate sponsors will always stall.

Pool awaits its Arnold Palmer, someone with the vision to position the pool product properly and the credibility and charisma to make others follow the example they set. Finally, and I'm sure this will rub at least someone the wrong way, i think Charlie Williams has at least tried to be an Arnold Plamer like figure in pool.
 
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sjm said:
Right, but let's not forget that golf was drawing large galleries in the late 1950's and early 1960's, when golfers were still barely scratching out a living. People weren't coming because there was big money in golf, they came to see Arnold Palmer.
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I never said anywhere in my post that it was because of money. I said media coverage/hype/excitement. If all of that existed with pool, the money might not be too far behind. Nobody would have came to see Arnold Palmer if they had no idea who he was.
 
Jimmy M. said:
I never said anywhere in my post that it was because of money. I said media coverage/hype/excitement. If all of that existed with pool, the money might not be too far behind. Nobody would have came to see Arnold Palmer if they had no idea who he was.
Click to expand...

Agreed, Jimmy, you did not say that, and I'm sorry if I made it appear otherwise. I just thought it amounted to a positive for pool that golf managed to get fanfare before the money came along. Arnie's army took many years to grow, but Arnie showed the way. In the early days, he did it without publicity. In fact, he stumped the panel on "What's My Line?" a few years into his golfing career. In the end, however, he was so exemplary in his manner and did so much metworking that he put golf on the map. It can be done.
 
Much American talent is underfunded due to IMHO overfunding of special needs programs that seem to accomodate space missions, bilingual gay whales as well as foreigners who refuse to learn to speak english. And oh yes, jail birds who instead of trying to find a job would rather pursue a state claim of emotional disability. This I've seen - all of it.
 
kokopuffs said:
Much American talent is underfunded due to IMHO overfunding of special needs programs that seem to accomodate space missions...
Click to expand...

Wow, pro pool is competing with NASA for funding? That's pretty stiff competition.
 
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