american pool talent wasting away.....

In 1931 billiard players were playing for bigger purses then they are today; and they played in three piece suits or tuxedos, not rags or jeans with holes in them like today. Jesus, is it a surprise to anyone that NO ONE but relatives and close friends want to come to these tournaments.

As stated by Jimmy M, media has contributed largely to the success of many sports. So why not pool. Well, for a start; let’s take some of these scruffy players and give them haircuts, shaves, and a bath an MAYBE someone would like to watch them display their talent on TV.

This isn’t going to be popular with many people, but I’ll give a case in point:

Last week-end I was at the opening of the Planet Pool tour in Laurel, MD. It looked like a third of the field was bussed in from Bellevue for the week-end to play pool. Now: for those of you that were there, honestly ask yourself this question. Would you actually sit in front of a TV with your family and watch these people play pool? Poor Willie Hoppe, Ralph Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi, etc.; these and other great players of the past must be turning over in their graves, after putting SO MUCH of themselves into the game of billiards to have it ruined by two bit hustlers trying to make it in the tournament ranks. If you want to be a hustler, then be a hustler and stay away from tournaments so that people with some class can again TRY to resurrect the game of billiards to the level it was in the 1930’s. OR, maybe you can take some of your purse money and purchase some decent clothing to bring up the image of billiards.

Here’s something you people may not know.

Many, many, many pool players have tried in the past to further the game of pool by getting the media involve but where undermined at EVERY attempt to do so; mainly by OTHER players who wanted to cut in on the action but ACTUALLY destroyed the WHOLE concept that was trying to be created.

Simply put, the GREED of a few destroyed it for EVERYONE
 
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DeadAim said:
Here’s something you people may not know.

Many, many, many pool players have tried in the past to further the game of pool by getting the media involve but where undermined at EVERY attempt to do so; mainly by OTHER players who wanted to cut in on the action but ACTUALLY destroyed the WHOLE concept that was trying to be created.

Simply put, the GREED of a few destroyed it for EVERYONE

Bingo! Exactly right, Deadaim. Ask CJ Wiley or, for that matter, Charlie Williams. Ask the founding fathers of the PPPA, the organization that had a ten year run from about 1976-86. All those guys worked hard to create chances for pro pool players, and did so with integrity. Sadly, every one of them also had to take a whole lot of crap from their fellow players.

The one mitigating factor here is that ever since the PBT disaster, players have had at least some right to be suspicious of those running the show. At the time, I was sponsoring a player, and his prize money checks were bouncing. I'll never forget it! The smoke seemed to settle gradually, and the players started to regain confidence in those running tournaments. Sadly, then came the US Open 9-ball incident a few years ago in which players didn't get paid and then the US Open 9-ball incident where the prize fund was reduced dramatically just before the onset of the event. It's difficult to argue with pros who cite these incidents when explaining why they don't trust the guys running the show in pool.

Ultimately, the players must rise above all this crap and start showing respect for each other and for themselves. Otherwise, they will continue to step on each other's toes.
 
DeadAim said:
As stated by Jimmy M, media has contributed largely to the success of many sports. So why not pool. Well, for a start; let’s take some of these scruffy players and give them haircuts, shaves, and a bath an MAYBE someone would like to watch them display their talent on TV.

I have no facial hair. I always bathe, and I shave my head. :D :D :D
 
Jimmy M. said:
If pool were some huge sport, with tons of media coverage, then those same 25,000 people would show up for Efren or Johnny. It isn't that people are so enamored by Tiger's play, which would be well deserved if they were, but it's all of the media hype and coverage that makes it exciting enough for people to want to go out and spend their time trying to get a glimpse of him. Take all of the cameras and hype away, in effect, take all of the "excitement" away, and you'd have the same situation where only the die-hard golfers and golf fans would show up.

Flame-Retardant: JMO/JMHO/IMO/IMHO/FWIW :D


Sorry, this is backwards. I am also responding to the posts on Arnie Palmer. By the time arnie came along it was the mid to late '50's. Golf had it's great era in the '20's and '30's. Hagen, Jones etc.... Then it had Nelson, Snead, and Hogan in the 30's, 40's and early '50s. The postwar years brought tremendous growth to golf. Guys had houses in the suburbs and some money to play the game and buy clubs. And TV hit. This was a recipe for disaster for pool and billiards, BTW. Anyway, golf had a lot of history and a rock solid amateur base by the time Arnie came along. Arnie's father made a living by running a country club as an employee of rich amateurs and selling them sweaters. So here comes arnie and golf explodes and keeps growing and growing. It was still growing basically and then Tiger comes along. So sure, there's a lot of hype. But take away the hype and golf would still have a rock solid amateur base and would support a big pro golf industry. So maybe Tiger would only end up with a couple hundred million instead of a billion. Other guys might have to go back to flying one way no advance purchase first class and staying at top hotels instead of flying private jets and staying in suites or rental homes. And there would be several thousand ghard core golf fans who would pay a lot to see Tiger. Not 30 or 40 people who balk at spending money on a ticket. The key is to have the sport have some broad appeal and develop a rock solid amateur base. I don't know how to do that. I have said before that I doubt the way to do it is with crappy bar table leagues. When poll and billiards were popular in the '20's and '30's and pros could make money, you had THOUSANDS of pool rooms that had top quality 10' tables and plenty of billiards tables. Now we consider 9' tables to be full size and many players have never played on a table that doesn't accept quarters. Such a state of affairs means that pro pool can't expect much. Develop the amateur base. Somehow you have to get people out of the house, off the internet, off the video games, off the golf course, and into a room with perfect tables, perfect balls, plenty of billiards tables, etc.... Get them willing to spend a little on their equipment, a lot on lessons, and a ton on table time. Then the pros will make a living. I would love to see this, but it is very unlikely.
 
chefjeff said:
I'm with you, bruin70, and I didn't mean to jump on you personally. I'm sorry if it was taken that way. I was, among other things, trying to keep my/our attitudes high.

Physical potential can definitely be inborn, as this article shows:

http://www.reason.com/rb/rb020205.shtml

With that said, the guy that wrote that article and many others have written a lot on improving human potential via science. These advances may make your examples obsolete, and that was part of my point.

You see, I'm kinda crazy about the future and its potentials and...I'm almost afraid to post this here, but I see where about 90% of us alive today will have the choice to not die and have a youthful body forever. How? Consider medical advances of, say, the last 100 years and how they are coming faster and faster. What advances will occur within our "normal" lifetimes? What if these advances only came once a year or so but would add maybe 10 more years to one's life? The answer: biological immortality.

How good could you get if you practiced for 1,000,000 years or so? And what would an "early" start in pool be?...15 years old, 50 years old, 500 years old...?

Seriously,

Jeff Livingston


because i do what i do, i tend to see things from a different point of view. all i see in life, with obvious exceptions, are that there is a close correlation between drive and talent. because, you see, there are those who LOVE something(to shoot pool, for instance) and there are those who MUST do something(the pros. they are driven by their talent). it is a subtlety that makes all the difference in the world between a "pro",,,a "great", and a REAL GOOD.

did varner become great because he practiced,,,or did he practice because he was driven to by his talent? i believe the latter.... i believe one becomes a slave to his talent.
 
If the pool "tall foreheads" were smart, then they would promote 8-ball. Walk into any bar, where 90% of the pool in North America is played, and you will see 8-ball. Why is pool on TV all 9-ball? The average player doesn't comprehend. Until we get this right, pool will never get proper respect...
 
Ok, now that I've gotten off of my soapbox, I must say that "class" in America has deteriorated a bit. I saw the same thing in Denver where, it seemed, many players wear their tool belts along with dual cell phones to the table. No class at all.
 
bruin70 said:
because i do what i do, i tend to see things from a different point of view. all i see in life, with obvious exceptions, are that there is a close correlation between drive and talent. because, you see, there are those who LOVE something(to shoot pool, for instance) and there are those who MUST do something(the pros. they are driven by their talent). it is a subtlety that makes all the difference in the world between a "pro",,,a "great", and a REAL GOOD.

did varner become great because he practiced,,,or did he practice because he was driven to by his talent? i believe the latter.... i believe one becomes a slave to his talent.

He practiced because he chose to practice. The reason(s) why he chose to practice belong to him, so I cannot answer your question.

I can't buy your "MUST do" concept. The conscious mind can overcome any "must," and often does, for individual reasons.

I've posted about this site before, but it fits this discussion well:

http://www.rebt.org/

There really are no "must," shoulds," or "have-to's."

One more thing... You said you see things differently because of what you do. I attempt to see things as they are, regardless of me and my subjective viewpoint. This objective perspective reveals things that my prejudiced, subjective mind could never have seen. These revelations then can be harnessed to increase my power and control over my happiness (and those frustrating balls on the flat plane).

Perfect?...no, but better than without this process of thinking.

I think we've taken the thread off track...sorry.

Jeff Livingston
 
Top Spin said:
If the pool "tall foreheads" were smart, then they would promote 8-ball. Walk into any bar, where 90% of the pool in North America is played, and you will see 8-ball. Why is pool on TV all 9-ball? The average player doesn't comprehend. Until we get this right, pool will never get proper respect...

I've always agreed with this. Show the people the game THEY play.
 
What to change?

Amateurs and the development of kids interest, are the backbone of almost any sport...but how do you get them into POOL? Try to find a pool room in almost any town in the USA where someone under the age of 21 can even hit a pool ball! But, EVERY town has bars for adults to play pool. Obviously there are a few in some towns but not in many.

I plan to open a room here in the pacific northwest this coming fall but the rents that are being charged for most buildings is not a very good rate for those who do not wish to have alcohol! We are literally forced to have alcohol just to pay the rent. I must, at least, have a great restaurant in the building or I will not have ANY chance to go into the business.

By the way, I advertise and guarantee the 1st place amount at ALL times in ALL of my tourneys !!! ...at least you know what some player will get for showing up...
 
chefjeff said:
,,,,,,,,,,,

I think we've taken the thread off track...sorry.

Jeff Livingston


i don't think so. we've added to it. that's the great thing about forums.
 
"i didn't start playing seriously till i was 21 because my parents didn't think a pool hall was a place for me to be when i was living at home.........."

Actually, I don't think we did get off the original topic; a lot is mentioned in this first post.

Let's take my first post, a lot of what I said directly concerns the above quoted statement. If this was 1890 or 1930 it would be his PARENTS going to the pool hall not him. Billiards Digest has an article about the highs and lows of billiards in society. Around the years I mention above the "elite" (in suits and ties) played pool in halls containing 120 tables. 120 tables!!!!!!!! It's hard enough for a pool hall to keep 20 tables going today.

WE have to make the effort the change billiards image.

How about if I present a challange:

East Coast Billiard Players:

Joss Tour:

Cap's Billiards, Syracuse, NY

Everybody show up in sport coats with ties OR at least nice dress pants and a shirt, blow Mike Z's mind. Look at Tony Robles, he ALWAYS dresses nice at the tournaments; he has some pride in himself and the game of billiards. Let's follow his example.

Oh yeah, NO HEADPHONES dangling on your ears, head, neck, etc. What's up with that anyway, if I was the tournament director I'd through these people out and ask them NEVER to come back.

LOCAL PLAYERS:

Can YOU dress up tonight before going to the pool hall; instead of some ratty old jeans and a shirt down to your knees with some obscure football/basketball/baseball players name on it, how about nice dress pants and a tucked in long/short sleeve dress shirt.

CAN YOU DO IT?????????????????????

Can YOU start to change billiards image.
 
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DeadAim said:
Around the years I mention above the "elite" (in suits and ties) played pool in halls containing 120 tables. 120 tables!!!!!!!!

Can YOU dress up tonight before going to the pool hall; instead of some ratty old jeans and a shirt down to your knees with some obscure football/basketball/baseball players name on it, how about nice dress pants and a tucked in long/short sleeve dress shirt.

CAN YOU DO IT?????????????????????

Can YOU start to change billiards image.[/QUOTE

Hi,
Am I missing some thing here? U and some others were talking about formal cloths worn by players of the past.If the cloths are going to change the Pool`s image ,by this time it should have been changed to the positive side.There is more to it.
Vagabond
 
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DeadAim said:
"i didn't start playing seriously till i was 21 because my parents didn't think a pool hall was a place for me to be when i was living at home.........."

Actually, I don't think we did get off the original topic; a lot is mentioned in this first post.

Let's take my first post, a lot of what I said directly concerns the above quoted statement. If this was 1890 or 1930 it would be his PARENTS going to the pool hall not him. Billiards Digest has an article about the highs and lows of billiards in society. Around the years I mention above the "elite" (in suits and ties) played pool in halls containing 120 tables. 120 tables!!!!!!!! It's hard enough for a pool hall to keep 20 tables going today.

WE have to make the effort the change billiards image.

How about if I present a challange:

East Coast Billiard Players:

Joss Tour:

Cap's Billiards, Syracuse, NY

Everybody show up in sport coats with ties OR at least nice dress pants and a shirt, blow Mike Z's mind. Look at Tony Robles, he ALWAYS dresses nice at the tournaments; he has some pride in himself and the game of billiards. Let's follow his example.

Oh yeah, NO HEADPHONES dangling on your ears, head, neck, etc. What's up with that anyway, if I was the tournament director I'd through these people out and ask them NEVER to come back.

LOCAL PLAYERS:

Can YOU dress up tonight before going to the pool hall; instead of some ratty old jeans and a shirt down to your knees with some obscure football/basketball/baseball players name on it, how about nice dress pants and a tucked in long/short sleeve dress shirt.

CAN YOU DO IT?????????????????????

Can YOU start to change billiards image.

Nice thought, DeadAim. Each of us can choose to do our little part...or not. It may not be far-reaching, but it is within the control of each of us, and that's good.

When I go to the state tourney, I wear dress pants and a nice shirt. I figured I'd attempt to improve pool's image, like you said.

Last year, I was the ONLY one of about 1,000 guys that wasn't in jeans. The women liked it, I could tell, ("ladies, please, I'm married!" :o ) but I felt like a fish out of water. Jeans are definitely more comfortable and practical for sitting around for a couple of days waiting and waiting for matches to be called, what with the wrinkles and all.

Now if...I mean....when I win the singles event this year, my dress may inspire others to follow suit (get it?...suit...ha ha). We'll see, I reckon.

Jeff Livingston
 
vagabond said:
Can YOU dress up tonight before going to the pool hall; instead of some ratty old jeans and a shirt down to your knees with some obscure football/basketball/baseball players name on it, how about nice dress pants and a tucked in long/short sleeve dress shirt.Can YOU start to change billiards image.

Obviously, it would take more than this to upgrade pool's image, but the way most people dress when they play pool is very important.

It is in this area where I feel the professionals must lead, and, of course, they don't even come close. The way most professionals present themselves in poolrooms reinforces pool's negative image. I might add that the instructors need to lead here, as well.

Few professionals in the current era have felt compelled to dress nicely every single time they go to poolrooms. OK, Jeanette Lee gets it right, and Kim Davenport always did. There are others such as Immonen and Barretta who set the right example. Of course, I'm sure there are more, but these two are simply the consistently polished dressers I get to watch here in NYC.

Instructors can make a big difference, too, as they have a great opportunity to instill a values system into a player. I've taught a successful professional and, while I did, mentioned that I would drop them as my student if they ever disgraced the game through poor appearance, poor sportsmanship or through the use of profanities. The result is that this player is now well-dressed and sportsmanlike and never uses profanities at the table, a credit to pro pool.

Whether teaching a beginner or an accomplished player, pool instructors should feel compelled to teach those students that take a series of lessons what constitutes appropriate dress over the green felt and what doesn't. I would also suggest that instructors should dress nicely whenever they enter poolrooms to set the right example.

We don't need tuxedos out there, just people that care about what they wear when they are in a pool venue, whether they are playing socially, practicing, competing or instructing.
 
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well,,,,seeing buddy hall for the first time at valley forge, he was wearing a jogging outfit and the crack of his butt was all too visible. i got a chuckle.
 
Scenario...really happened...

I had a 16 year old that wanted to take pool lessons AND his Mother and Father were BOTH supportive and were ready to spend the money and time to teach their son the sport properly. We had set up a date to begin and the day before the Mother called me. She said her Husband didn't want his son to take lessons at this time because there's no place close (less than 1 hour) that he could play in a league and that the lessons would be a loss. I told her that he could use the lessons, improve on them and by the time he's 18 he will have a big head start over a lot of the adult players in the area. She said, if the only place he can play is in someone's home, then he's not playing.

Why isn't there more Youth Pool Halls?? A pool hall where there's NO ADULTS over 18 or 21 aloud! I bet if you did a sensus of how many homes had pool tables in them, you would be really suprised! They have to because their children can't play anywhere else!

I'm all for promoting the Future of Pool thru the Youth!
Zim
 
Zims Rack said:
(snip)
Why isn't there more Youth Pool Halls?? A pool hall where there's NO ADULTS over 18 or 21 aloud! I bet if you did a sensus of how many homes had pool tables in them, you would be really suprised! They have to because their children can't play anywhere else!

I'm all for promoting the Future of Pool thru the Youth!
Zim

Good news here in Des Moines...a new joint just opened up with over 40 tables and about 20 of them are on one walled-in side that is for under 21 year olds! Maybe then those 21 year olds that hit the bars won't be "basement" pool players and won't bitch and moan about ball-in-hand and the "no calling kisses" rules. :D

Now, if we could get the churches and schools to participate, too, think of the talent that would pop up, forcing us all to improve our games.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Good news here in Des Moines...a new joint just opened up with over 40 tables and about 20 of them are on one walled-in side that is for under 21 year olds! Maybe then those 21 year olds that hit the bars won't be "basement" pool players and won't bitch and moan about ball-in-hand and the "no calling kisses" rules. :D

Now, if we could get the churches and schools to participate, too, think of the talent that would pop up, forcing us all to improve our games.

Jeff Livingston
Jeff- Maybe you can talk to the room owner and see about starting a Junior League and tournaments on a weekly basis. Try to get a Professional Instructor to hold weekly sessions for a small fee and maybe be there at the league and tournaments to have a "tip minute" at each event. I think there should be at least one room like this in every major pool area and in the larger cities. The YOUTH is the FUTURE of the cueing arts existance!
Zim
 
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