An excerpt from "The Hustler" -- great approach to the mental game

[BillPorter]

Great post, great thread!

Here's a brief excerpt from Walter Tevis' "The Hustler." For any of you with the paperback version by Thunder's Mouth Press, it's pages 89 - 92. In a few mintes I'll post 93 - 97 or so (until my fingers get tired).

These pages are the best in the entire book, in my opinion. This hit the nail right on the head about the psychology of winning (more importantly, being a winnder), decades before anyone even wrote a book about it. So enjoy:

Steven, I really enjoyed your posts! And the comments by Colin were so very perceptive and clear! And bruin70's comments were also well thought out. I read the book many years ago and had forgotten how good some of the writing was!

Colin, it seems to me that part of "character," in the sense the word is used in the book, is "choice-less awareness," or the ability to see and accept the reality one is presented with, without the distortions induced by motives such as fear of failure.

One last point: I guess the book was the source of a belief I have held for many years, the idea that we all have some 'loser" within us. Some people have so much "loser" within them that they will find a way to lose in almost any situation. Others display that "loser" pattern of behavior when competing with certain opponents, but not with other opponents. Top players rarely display that "loser" pattern, but it is latent within them nevertheless and may appear when certain circumstances occur, maybe when they are extremely tired (Lombardi's comment that "fatigue makes cowards of us all" comes to mind) or under the influence of a bad combination of drugs/alcohol.

 

[chefjeff]

In a similar vein, I think it was Red Auerbach that said, "You show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser." I think that sums up what Mr Tevis was trying to say in much less than 20 words.

(snip).

I don't think this was what the conversation was about. At least, that's not what I got from it.

To me, Bert's words are similar to those I posted last week in the "burning the flag" thread in the Non pool section about how to think honestly. He was pointing out to Eddie that he (Eddie) was lying to himself about what happened when he played Fats and why it happened. And as long as he was being dishonest with himself, he would never be able to outperform those limiting beliefs.

Being dishonest with one's thoughts is a form of mysticism that is very harmful, as everything that follows has flaws in it and those will be reflected in realtiy. It takes "character," in Bert's words, to bust that paradigm and go beyond it to greater things. Without an honest assessment and resulting action, the problems remain, regardless of how one drinks, plays, loses, wins, etc.

Quality growth comes from first dismissing the negatives, THEN adding the positives. It's like cleaning the kitchen before you cook.

Jeff Livingston

 

[bruin70]

Not entirely true.

Bert also makes a living off Minnesota Fats.

"the hustler" was a film about people who live off of other people. in some sense they were all losers, i suppose. amid this heirarchy of losers stood eddie and fats, and yes, i was going to mention fats as the exception. i think fats' role was to be a counterpoint to eddie's. they were the pure talents who understood each other for what they had deep inside. i wish the film had shown more of this "quiet understanding" between two great talents. i can't help but see a dichotomy however, because although fats made the most of his talent and not a loser in that sense, he still allowed himself to be used, whether by circumstance or not, he was not his own man, and when he lost to eddie he remarked(to paraphrase) "bert, you got yourself a new boy"........and that was the extent of fats' value to himself and to bert. in fats' own eyes, the good life was over, which is a sad commentary on his self worth.

 

[BillPorter]

Great topic - deserves to be bumped

I thought this thread deserved to be bumped back to the top at least once.

 

[justnum]

my contemporary view on the hustler:

To me it was about bringing people together which is what the game did.

Meeting strange new characters in the oddest of places and getting to know them. Not the person they have to be but the person they want to be.

The characters wanted to prove to other people what they knew about themselves.

Unrelated, a comical element seem to lack in the hustler and color of movie, but I dont think it wouldve fit in.

I hated english class.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't think this was what the conversation was about. At least, that's not what I got from it.

To me, Bert's words are similar to those I posted last week in the "burning the flag" thread in the Non pool section about how to think honestly. He was pointing out to Eddie that he (Eddie) was lying to himself about what happened when he played Fats and why it happened. And as long as he was being dishonest with himself, he would never be able to outperform those limiting beliefs.

Being dishonest with one's thoughts is a form of mysticism that is very harmful, as everything that follows has flaws in it and those will be reflected in realtiy. It takes "character," in Bert's words, to bust that paradigm and go beyond it to greater things. Without an honest assessment and resulting action, the problems remain, regardless of how one drinks, plays, loses, wins, etc.

Quality growth comes from first dismissing the negatives, THEN adding the positives. It's like cleaning the kitchen before you cook.

Jeff Livingston

Hey brother Jeff
Wise words as usual!

Along the lines of your insight, I regularly use a chant that goes as follows:
"In all that I think, and all that I do,
My Self, My Senses, be Honest, be True"

It invibes the message, such that when the temptation for self-dishonesty arises, there is a strong prompting from the sub-conscious (as one might refer to it) to question and reject the thought. It helps to steer one toward honesty in all matters.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, it seems to me that part of "character," in the sense the word is used in the book, is "choice-less awareness," or the ability to see and accept the reality one is presented with, without the distortions induced by motives such as fear of failure.

One last point: I guess the book was the source of a belief I have held for many years, the idea that we all have some 'loser" within us. Some people have so much "loser" within them that they will find a way to lose in almost any situation. Others display that "loser" pattern of behavior when competing with certain opponents, but not with other opponents. Top players rarely display that "loser" pattern, but it is latent within them nevertheless and may appear when certain circumstances occur, maybe when they are extremely tired (Lombardi's comment that "fatigue makes cowards of us all" comes to mind) or under the influence of a bad combination of drugs/alcohol.

Hi Bill,
Like your thoughts on the internal loser within us all. I think it's spot on.

As for character, yes, surely the word has vast interpretations. The character that Tevis refered to is a particular aspect of human character.

As for choice-less awareness, without knowing where this term is described I'll just have to comment on it at face value. I'd say that awareness and character are closely linked, and while a character trait becomes intrinsic, automatic in a sense it is still very much a matter of choice I believe. Just educated / aware choice which gives the impression of consistancy.

But not knowing the derivation of the term I could well be off base. I have long enjoyed delving into the psychological and metaphysical aspects of life, and pool is as good a place as any to examine the machinations of the mind and the wheels that spin the universe.

Pool is a metaphor of life. I love Aristotle's quote:

"The greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor; it is one thing that cannot be learnt from others; and it is also a sign of genius, since a good metaphor implies an intuitive perception of the similarity in the dissimilar."

See: http://www.sangraal.com/library/rtc1.htm for more related info.

Colin

 

[Rickw]

I don't think that is anything like what Tevis is saying here.

Colin

Colin,

In my opinion, what Tevis was trying to point out is that Eddie subconciously was looking for an excuse to lose. Bert said that winning can be a heavy burden to carry and that, for some people, it is much easier to lose because all you have to do is feel sorry for yourself. To me, what Bert was trying to point out was that Eddie was a loser. He said it in the movie towards the end of the game between Fats and Eddie, keep playing him Fats because this guy is a "loser".

What Red Auerbach was trying to say is that whether you're a good loser or a bad loser, you're a loser. Losing is not acceptable in his mind. Winning is all that counts. Bert bets only on winners and like Red, has no use for losers. This whole passage is about Bert telling Eddie he's a loser and why he's a loser. He mentions that Eddie has more talent than just about anyone alive but he doesn't know how to be a winner with all that talent. In other words, having talent and being a winner can be mutually exclusive and in Eddie's case it is just that. He doesn't say what it takes to be a winner just that whatever that is, Fats has it and Eddie doesn't. Bert says a lot but what it boils down to for me is that Eddie is a loser and will find some way to lose in spite of the fact that he has a lot of talent. Red's comment basically illustrates the same sentiment, a loser is a loser whether you're a good loser or a bad loser. Some people are just losers in sports and in life. They have everything it takes to be a winner except the will, desire or motivation to win. We all know players like this don't we? Someone who is just loaded with natural talent but as soon as some pressure is put on them, they can't make a ball. Basketball is chock full of the same type of people and that's why there are thousands of great atheletes that don't get to play pro ball, because they don't have the will to win, i.e., they're "Losers". Show me a good loser and I'll show you a "Loser".

Another element in this relationship between Bert and Eddie is Bert's jealousy of Eddie's talent. Bert's conscious mind wanted to find a way to make money off of Eddie's talent. Bert's subconscious mind wanted to be there when Eddie imploded again so he could feel superior to Eddie.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

In my opinion, what Tevis was trying to point out is that Eddie subconciously was looking for an excuse to lose. Bert said that winning can be a heavy burden to carry and that, for some people, it is much easier to lose because all you have to do is feel sorry for yourself. To me, what Bert was trying to point out was that Eddie was a loser. He said it in the movie towards the end of the game between Fats and Eddie, keep playing him Fats because this guy is a "loser".

What Red Auerbach was trying to say is that whether you're a good loser or a bad loser, you're a loser. Losing is not acceptable in his mind. Winning is all that counts. Bert bets only on winners and like Red, has no use for losers. This whole passage is about Bert telling Eddie he's a loser and why he's a loser. He mentions that Eddie has more talent than just about anyone alive but he doesn't know how to be a winner with all that talent. In other words, having talent and being a winner can be mutually exclusive and in Eddie's case it is just that. He doesn't say what it takes to be a winner just that whatever that is, Fats has it and Eddie doesn't. Bert says a lot but what it boils down to for me is that Eddie is a loser and will find some way to lose in spite of the fact that he has a lot of talent. Red's comment basically illustrates the same sentiment, a loser is a loser whether you're a good loser or a bad loser. Some people are just losers in sports and in life. They have everything it takes to be a winner except the will, desire or motivation to win. We all know players like this don't we? Someone who is just loaded with natural talent but as soon as some pressure is put on them, they can't make a ball. Basketball is chock full of the same type of people and that's why there are thousands of great atheletes that don't get to play pro ball, because they don't have the will to win, i.e., they're "Losers". Show me a good loser and I'll show you a "Loser".

Another element in this relationship between Bert and Eddie is Bert's jealousy of Eddie's talent. Bert's conscious mind wanted to find a way to make money off of Eddie's talent. Bert's subconscious mind wanted to be there when Eddie imploded again so he could feel superior to Eddie.

Rick,
I agree with everything you say, but I still cannot connect these ideas with " Show me a good loser and I'll show you a 'Loser'".

To me the phrase has an entirely different connotation. It's a phrase I've heard bandied about by a bunch of bad losers with little ability. There is some truth to the statement, as it applies in certain situations with some people, but I still don't think it is the jist of the idea set forth in The Hustler.

Anyway, art is subjective. We can all have our interpretations and agree to disagree.

Colin

 

[Rickw]

Anyway, art is subjective. We can all have our interpretations and agree to disagree.

Colin

Colin,

We are in total agreement on the quote above!

I think that the saying, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser, means, at least to me, that it doesn't really matter what kind of loser you are. If you are a loser, you are a loser. And, like Bert said, a loser will find an excuse to lose. There are lots of losers out there, including Eddie, Dirk Nowitski of the Dallas Mavericks and countless others that play sports. It also applies to those that are constantly losing at life in general. Some how, some way, they will find a way to mess up their opportuinities to win or be successful.

Does that saying completely address all of what Bert was saying? No, but it does address the main theme, imho. Bert never described how to either be a winner or how not to be a loser.

I know, I'm beating this to death huh? Sorry. I rest my case now!

 

[chefjeff]

Hey brother Jeff
Wise words as usual!

Along the lines of your insight, I regularly use a chant that goes as follows:
"In all that I think, and all that I do,
My Self, My Senses, be Honest, be True"

It invibes the message, such that when the temptation for self-dishonesty arises, there is a strong prompting from the sub-conscious (as one might refer to it) to question and reject the thought. It helps to steer one toward honesty in all matters.

Cheers,
Colin

Nice little poem that jumps right by the conscious mind into the little ol' subconscious mind. Beware of poetry! It can be soooo tricky and damaging if not filtered.

I state the concept this way as my personal, lifetime goal:

"Abiding happiness for me and those I love by integrating honesty as fully as possible into every thought and action I create."

Only by doing away with the muck can I indentify real value and how to integrate that. Honest processes combined with truths allow me a way to disintegrate the negatives and integrate the positives. All other mystical, "feel good" methods ignore this proven process and only provide outside-authority-based easy "answers" that rarely work at all and certainly don't provide lasting values as they must break apart from lack of consistency.

Found Anarchocapistan on the map yet?

Jeff Livingston