I was playing 9 ball and I had miscued on a draw shot, causing the ball to jump up. I did hit the lowest numbered ball on the table, the correct ball. My opponent claimed that even though it was a miscue, I had performed an illegal jump shot, and told me it was ball in hand. I was a little confused about this because I have never in my time playing seen this called on anyone else before on a miscue. I know players cant scoop the ball to do a jump shot, but for a miscue? Is this really ball in hand?
An unusual foul called on me, anyone know this rule?
- Thread starter koston08
- Start date
koston08 said:
If you were attempting to jump and you miscued, it would be a foul but a miscue is not inherently a foul, even if the cueball jumps. This was a bad call.
I did hit a cushion afterwards. I normally would see the foul called on an intentional jump attempt, not just a miscue. This is what I just found on a BCA site
3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (“digs under” or “lofts” the cue ball) and INTENTIONALLY causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur ACCIDENTALLY, and such “jumps” are NOT to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot.
So it has to be intentional. Now I know the rules. I think I won anyways so the memory doesnt bother me as much
3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (“digs under” or “lofts” the cue ball) and INTENTIONALLY causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur ACCIDENTALLY, and such “jumps” are NOT to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot.
So it has to be intentional. Now I know the rules. I think I won anyways so the memory doesnt bother me as much
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not a foul
From the WPA rules, this explains it:
8.18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
The way I understand it, if you are not attempting a "jump" shot, it is not a foul but a miscue as stated above...unless you can prove that the side of the cue struck the cue ball.
L8R...Ken
From the WPA rules, this explains it:
8.18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
The way I understand it, if you are not attempting a "jump" shot, it is not a foul but a miscue as stated above...unless you can prove that the side of the cue struck the cue ball.
L8R...Ken
SKUNKBOY said:
Under BCA Rules:
3.27 Unless otherwise stated in rules for a specific game it is legal to cause the cue ball to rise off the bed of the table by elevating the cue stick on teh shot, and forcing the cue ball to rebound from the bed of the table. Any miscue when executing a jump shot is a foul.
SKUNKBOY said:
BTW, for the record, that's ugliest font color ever used.
Ask Them To Show You The Foul in the Rules.......
If I am not mistaken, the rule you quoted is from the APA National Rules.
In APA, local rules/bylaws supersede the national rules when playing regular session and playoff matches, unless your APA league abides by national rules only. I say that because in many local APA leagues, local bylaws written up by the league operator are used to close gaps in the national rules or address specific issues.
If a person calls a foul, and you disagree, they must show you in writing. If they cannot do so, then there is no foul, hence no BIH.
Therefore, sometimes it is wise to ask the person, "Please show me in the bylaws where this is a BIH situation......"
If they cannot back up their position by quoting the bylaws, shoot on as if nothing happened.
koston08 said:I did hit a cushion afterwards. I normally would see the foul called on an intentional jump attempt, not just a miscue. This is what I just found on a BCA site
3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (?digs under? or ?lofts? the cue ball) and INTENTIONALLY causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur ACCIDENTALLY, and such ?jumps? are NOT to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot.
So it has to be intentional. Now I know the rules. I think I won anyways so the memory doesnt bother me as much
If I am not mistaken, the rule you quoted is from the APA National Rules.
In APA, local rules/bylaws supersede the national rules when playing regular session and playoff matches, unless your APA league abides by national rules only. I say that because in many local APA leagues, local bylaws written up by the league operator are used to close gaps in the national rules or address specific issues.
If a person calls a foul, and you disagree, they must show you in writing. If they cannot do so, then there is no foul, hence no BIH.
Therefore, sometimes it is wise to ask the person, "Please show me in the bylaws where this is a BIH situation......"
If they cannot back up their position by quoting the bylaws, shoot on as if nothing happened.
I've known guys who know the rules but try to rewrite them to their benefit in an effort to get free games or BIH from newer players. They claim that the 3 foul rule means 3 fouls in the same game, a scratch on the break is a loss or equals 2 fouls, pocketing the 9 ball on a foul shot is loss of game, and other BS like that. Did you know this guy?
actually it depends.
You don't have to be trying to jump. because there's no way to know what a person's intentions are. If the ball leaves the contact surface on a below center ball hit, it would technically be a foul, but most people wouldn't call it.
Jaden
Jude Rosenstock said:
You don't have to be trying to jump. because there's no way to know what a person's intentions are. If the ball leaves the contact surface on a below center ball hit, it would technically be a foul, but most people wouldn't call it.
Jaden
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is similar to the other thread. You need to have some common sense to make the call.
A friend of mine had this same thing happen at VNEA Nationals in Vegas a few years ago. He was shooting a straight in shot, miscued and the ball jumped up, but he still pocketed his ball. The opposing player called a foul, saying it was a scoop shot, even though there was no ball between the cue ball and object ball. They called a ref, and the ref gave the opposing player BIH for the foul. This was a bad call by a ref at the Nationals, so it is not just a local event issue.
Jaden said:
This makes no sense. If a person has a clean shot at his ball, why would he INTENTIONALLY make the cue ball come off the table?
Jaden said:
Jaden, you would probably be a great philosopher but unfortunately, we're not discussing how DeCartes would rule. We're talking about practical application of the rules and how a referee would rule. No referee is going to call a standard miscue a foul assuming the shooter is not jacking-up for a jump and can clearly see the low-ball.
The bottom line is, miscues are not fouls. Jumps are not fouls. Miscuing while attempting a jump IS a foul. Miscuing TO jump the ball is a foul. That's it. There's nothing more to it.
I think I would have to see the exact circumstances before I would venture a guess.
The miscue alone is not a foul.
Did the miscue cause the CB to hop and when it came down hit the ferrule or side of the shaft?
I have seen that happen and would call that a foul. It is not technically a miscue at this point, it would be a double hit...but it resulted from a miscue.
Again...I would have needed to see the shot happen to tell.
When it happens during a match that I am playing...I won't say anything but I will look at the opponent to see what thier reaction is...If they double hit it...you can usually tell by the look on thier face....and when they see you looking at them...the guilt will overcome them and they will call it on themself.
If they don't...at least I know what type of person I am playing and frankly I can't think of a time when someone has actually run the rest of a rack after a miscue....
Usually you get a shot at some point anyway.
The miscue alone is not a foul.
Did the miscue cause the CB to hop and when it came down hit the ferrule or side of the shaft?
I have seen that happen and would call that a foul. It is not technically a miscue at this point, it would be a double hit...but it resulted from a miscue.
Again...I would have needed to see the shot happen to tell.
When it happens during a match that I am playing...I won't say anything but I will look at the opponent to see what thier reaction is...If they double hit it...you can usually tell by the look on thier face....and when they see you looking at them...the guilt will overcome them and they will call it on themself.
If they don't...at least I know what type of person I am playing and frankly I can't think of a time when someone has actually run the rest of a rack after a miscue....
Usually you get a shot at some point anyway.
BRKNRUN said:
The OP has failed to describe a foul. If he tells us he was using a 30 inch cue, bridging with his shirt tail in his hand while sitting on the table, then yes, I would say he fouled.
Jude Rosenstock said:
You are correct....
Many crimminals go free every day just for that reason.....
I have a hunch there is more to this story than a simple miscue...
Even if there was more... Based on the post the other player would have then identifed a different infraction than what should have been called......
Another reason why crimminals and/or traffic violators go free...The cop listed the wrong infraction.
The simple answer is
A miscue is not a foul.....The guy that called it a foul probably did not know the rules.......
But what fun would that be...Its more fun to speculate.....