Any good books out there about table repairs and maintenance?

chefjeff

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
With all the troubles I've read about lately when players have a table redone, and with the troubles I had, too,
I have to wonder: Where is THE book on table repair and maintenance? I'd personally like a good reference
book for the next time my table is worked on.

It'd be nice if it was part of an accredited school of repair, if there is such a thing, which I highly doubt. Don't
the manufacturers have a training school to send mechanics to become certified? If not, WHY NOT? Their
product is being ruined and blamed for what is the simple lack of knowledge in maintaining their tables.
It's in their best interest to offer such certification, I'd think.

I've read a few old pamphlets from some old rooms that show how to recover a table and such, but I've never
seen a comprehensive book on table maintenance, moving, etc.

Surely, someone has written or is writing such a book.

Does anyone know?



Thanks,



Jeff Livingston
 
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chefjeff said:
With all the troubles I've read about lately when players have a table redone, and with the troubles I had, too, I have to wonder: Where is THE book on table repair and maintenance? I'd personally like a good reference book for the next time my table is worked on.

It'd be nice if it was part of an accredited school of repair, if there is such a thing, which I highly doubt. Don't the manufacturers have a training school to send mechanics to become certified? If not, WHY NOT? Their product is being ruined and blamed for what is the simple lack of knowledge in maintaining their tables. It's in their best interest to offer such certification, I'd think.

I've read a few old pamphlets from some old rooms that show how to recover a table and such, but I've never seen a comprehensive book on table maintenance, moving, etc.

Surely, someone has written or is writing such a book.

Does anyone know?



Thanks,



Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

By no means is this an end all of knowledge, but, it will lead you places.

https://www.ozonebilliards.com/product/the-green-book-pool-table-maintenance-manual
 
Thanks, Trent for finding this:

ozonepark_2465_783965420__95135.1490639052.jpg



Have any mechanics used this source and is it valid? Is the info too old for the newer tables, etc. etc.? Who are the authors and why are they valid, etc.?

Any other books on this subject?


Jeff Livingston
 
I did not "find" it for the sake of showing you on here. I found it about 6 years ago when I started my pool table business. I own it and think its a great start. It will definitely "lead you places" as I mentioned in my original post.

There are not many books out there as I am sure you noticed if you typed it into google....

As for the authors, since there are not really any other books like it, does it really matter??


I work on pool tables full time and only deal in Brunswick Gold Crowns, Anniversary and Centennial restorations and new Diamond sales.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums

Trent from Toledo

P.s. Another great source of knowledge: The Simonis Installation DVDS .

22135627_10214457014122097_1605565038825828325_o.jpg
 
Just ordered a used copy off amazon, I am sure there is some good stuff in there!! Its most likely a gamble!


Trent from Toledo
 
trentfromtoledo said:
Just ordered a used copy off amazon, I am sure there is some good stuff in there!! Its most likely a gamble!


Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

You guys crack me up....there is nothing in print that anyone could learn a damn thing right from, no different than the hacks posting videos about how to recover rails and slates....LOL Table manufactures only have control over the tables they build until they get in the hands of the installers, in which most of them can't even get that job done right....LOL what would you expect.to learn from them when it comes to actually working on a pool table....LOL The Simonis cloth installation DVDs are absolutely the best on the market for training...but there's so many hacks out there even they can barely make a dent in tbis industry...sad, but true!
 
realkingcobra said:
You guys crack me up....there is nothing in print that anyone could learn a damn thing right from, no different than the hacks posting videos about how to recover rails and slates....LOL Table manufactures only have control over the tables they build until they get in the hands of the installers, in which most of them can't even get that job done right....LOL what would you expect.to learn from them when it comes to actually working on a pool table....LOL The Simonis cloth installation DVDs are absolutely the best on the market for training...but there's so many hacks out there even they can barely make a dent in tbis industry...sad, but true!
Click to expand...

YOU KNOW I HAVE A SET OF THOSE DVDS TOO RKC!!
Just interested in reading stuff related to what I do :)

Trent
 
realkingcobra said:
You guys crack me up....there is nothing in print that anyone could learn a damn thing right from, no different than the hacks posting videos about how to recover rails and slates....LOL Table manufactures only have control over the tables they build until they get in the hands of the installers, in which most of them can't even get that job done right....LOL what would you expect.to learn from them when it comes to actually working on a pool table....LOL The Simonis cloth installation DVDs are absolutely the best on the market for training...but there's so many hacks out there even they can barely make a dent in tbis industry...sad, but true!
Click to expand...

So, what's your point in posting here, then? I'm simply asking for books on the subject or any other written info.
Trent has been very generous and helpful with his posts.

You mentioned table manufacturers as having no control after their tables installers have 'em. That's why I asked
about manufacturers maybe having a tech training school so such mistakes don't happen so often and can be
fixed, as per the manufacturers specifications.

Have you ever gone to a manufacturers technical training school?




Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I'm simply asking for books on the subject or any other written info.
Trent has been very generous and helpful with his posts.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

I think books videos would be good to educate buyers/owners. Table service is such a blind item...we don't know what we're getting until the tech leaves. And we're stuck. Their "Talk" is all and only talk. Only a handful can deliver.
Also some us could do better work than the hackers.

I'm thankful for AzB as I found my last tech here and know who I'm calling for the next round.

I suggest new buyers research Installers before purchasing a table. Most of look for price on a table where were should be looking for a quality delivery instead of How Much can I get everything for.

Thanks King, Trent, Mark and Pat(911) for your contributions to AzB. Feel free to write books and make DVD's. I'll buy one...only to watch and appreciate what goes into your work.

PS...Thanks Trent for referring John Burns..I passed that on to a friend in MD. Everything worked out great.
 
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trentfromtoledo said:
Just ordered a used copy off amazon, I am sure there is some good stuff in there!! Its most likely a gamble!


Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

Ah, yes.... I saw that both books were not available from the billiard suppliers...I'll get my wife to order from Amazon.

Thanks, guys, you're so helpful with sharing your knowledge.



Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Have you ever gone to a manufacturers technical training school?

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

LOL....yes, i have....I taught the Diamond factory how to switch over from stapling the bed cloth down over to my glue down system!

There is no factory installer schools, but Brunsick and Connelly use to, and may still....offer a 4 hour class showing how to set up a new pool table, then give you a certificate saying you're an authorized installer....even if you've never touched a pool table in your life up until that 4 hour show and tell class....LOL and NO as in not one cloth manufacturer knows how to install their cloth correctly so don't look for how to install it right from them. NO slate manufacturers have instructions on how to install and level the slates, I'm the only person that has even made an attempt to help people do that with my instructions posted on AZB. DON'T ask a cushion manufacturer how to install their cushions, as they have no idea if they're even selling you the right cushions in the first place. AND new pool table manufactures are only interested in selling NEW pool tables, NOT in fixing older tables after they've been hacked up by the idoits out there working on them....they LIKE the hacks working on their pool tables....they help get the tables off the market sooner or later....LMAO

So many times I've had this conversation here on AZB only to be told it's not rocket science to work on pool tables.....that I'm nothing more than a furniture installer....and that there's 100's of great pool table mechanics out there just as good as i am, but when asked who they are....no one seems to be able to remember their names, and no one can post pictures of their work.....i know, they must belong to the secret society of great table mechanics....LOL

I've watched so many video's on YouTube of people showing how to recover pool tables it's a joke.....because all they do for me is confirm that no one seems to know shit about what they're doing....but would hope you believe otherwise.
 
chefjeff said:
So, what's your point in posting here, then? I'm simply asking for books on the subject or any other written info.
Trent has been very generous and helpful with his posts.

You mentioned table manufacturers as having no control after their tables installers have 'em. That's why I asked
about manufacturers maybe having a tech training school so such mistakes don't happen so often and can be
fixed, as per the manufacturers specifications.

Have you ever gone to a manufacturers technical training school?




Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

As a matter of fact, I'm the first person in this industry that took the time to actually host a Simonis cloth installation seminar for about 70 installers, reason being, at that time no one knew how to install the cloth correctly anywhere in this country, and no one for sure had ever heard about stretch indexing the cloth as to be able to repeat installing the cloth the exact same from one table to the next to guarantee the grain of the cloth was straight and maintaining the same stretch strength. NO cloth manufacturer in the world has ever done that....why? Because they make the cloth, they sell the cloth, BUT they don't install their cloth....thats why.
 
realkingcobra said:
LOL....yes, i have....I taught the Diamond factory how to switch over from stapling the bed cloth down over to my glue down system!

There is no factory installer schools, but Brunsick and Connelly use to, and may still....offer a 4 hour class showing how to set up a new pool table, then give you a certificate saying you're an authorized installer....even if you've never touched a pool table in your life up until that 4 hour show and tell class....LOL and NO as in not one cloth manufacturer knows how to install their cloth correctly so don't look for how to install it right from them. NO slate manufacturers have instructions on how to install and level the slates, I'm the only person that has even made an attempt to help people do that with my instructions posted on AZB. DON'T ask a cushion manufacturer how to install their cushions, as they have no idea if they're even selling you the right cushions in the first place. AND new pool table manufactures are only interested in selling NEW pool tables, NOT in fixing older tables after they've been hacked up by the idoits out there working on them....they LIKE the hacks working on their pool tables....they help get the tables off the market sooner or later....LMAO

So many times I've had this conversation here on AZB only to be told it's not rocket science to work on pool tables.....that I'm nothing more than a furniture installer....and that there's 100's of great pool table mechanics out there just as good as i am, but when asked who they are....no one seems to be able to remember their names, and no one can post pictures of their work.....i know, they must belong to the secret society of great table mechanics....LOL

I've watched so many video's on YouTube of people showing how to recover pool tables it's a joke.....because all they do for me is confirm that no one seems to know shit about what they're doing....but would hope you believe otherwise.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info on table makers "schools."

They need to step up to the plate so their product isn't seen as crapola. You take on the videos just reinforces my opinion on that.

When I worked on copiers years ago, I was not allowed to work on one without a certified tech with me doing so many hours of work
plus then I had to go to schools to become certified, all done before I could go out on a call alone. I've seen the same in other industries.

Why not pool tables, a big expense for the consumers? (that question is for the manufacturers, not you)


Jeff Livingston
 
realkingcobra said:
As a matter of fact, I'm the first person in this industry that took the time to actually host a Simonis cloth installation seminar for about 70 installers, reason being, at that time no one knew how to install the cloth correctly anywhere in this country, and no one for sure had ever heard about stretch indexing the cloth as to be able to repeat installing the cloth the exact same from one table to the next to guarantee the grain of the cloth was straight and maintaining the same stretch strength. NO cloth manufacturer in the world has ever done that....why? Because they make the cloth, they sell the cloth, BUT they don't install their cloth....thats why.
Click to expand...

Wow!

What morons they are to set their product free without keeping the integrity up to and through the end user. All that money
and time spent on research and development to make the best cloth ever made, all wasted with bad installation when that
could be avoided so easily and cost effectively, too. I'd imagine they sell more product if the product they have out there
already was maximized to provide consumer satisfaction.

The manufacturers could hold classes and charge repairmen to become certified, and that would do a lot to raise the profits of
those table mechanics, as they could demonstrate to consumers their superior, proven ability to do the work over non-certified mechanics.

The more I'm in pool the more I see pool businesses shooting themselves in the foot... for nothing.

sigh, Happy New Year billiard business, Happy fuggin' New Year.


Jeff Livingston
 
Glen Hancock, Mark Gregory and Jay Spielberg should all write the book. It would be good, something we can believe in. I only buy the books/ videos out there in an attempt to learn a couple of things I may have not already known, a method, a tool or material. There is something to learn from everyone / every book and some more than others.

Trent from Toledo
 
chefjeff said:
Wow!

What morons they are to set their product free without keeping the integrity up to and through the end user. All that money
and time spent on research and development to make the best cloth ever made, all wasted with bad installation when that
could be avoided so easily and cost effectively, too. I'd imagine they sell more product if the product they have out there
already was maximized to provide consumer satisfaction.

The manufacturers could hold classes and charge repairmen to become certified, and that would do a lot to raise the profits of
those table mechanics, as they could demonstrate to consumers their superior, proven ability to do the work over non-certified mechanics.

The more I'm in pool the more I see pool businesses shooting themselves in the foot... for nothing.

sigh, Happy New Year billiard business, Happy fuggin' New Year.


Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

NOW you're getting the picture....LOL Bad installed cloth gets replaced sooner = more sales! Wrong cushions installed = more sales. Tables hacked up because there's no training or schooling in this industry = increased sales. Pool table manufactures, cushion manufacturers, cloth manufacturers, slate maunfactures....all make components to a pool table, but they don't install their components themselves....they rely for the most part....on the CUSTOMER to solve that part of the problem themselves. All the manufactures listed have no idea how to work on their own products because they ONLY sell them, therefore....WHAT are they going to teach, let alone certify? Table manufactures are ONLY interested in NEW table sales, and NOT in how to keep the tables they've already sold on the market longer! NO table manufactures OTHER than Diamond has installers delivering and setting up pool tables they build, they rely on distributorships to install their products....once again, the untrained, uncertified installers that work for the local distributorship....where do you think they got their training? Want to know how little THEY know, call them up sometime and tell them you're looking to replace the cushions on your Gold Crown and you want to tighten up the pockets to 4 1/2"....LMAO You'll be blown away at the recommendations you'll hear, INCLUDING installing accufast cushions on your GOLD CROWN...and they're a K66 profile, while the GC requires a K55 cushion....accufast cushions are the best cushions in the world don't you know????....LOL And STILL there's people right here on AZB that will be more than happy to argue the fact that there's 100's of pool table mechanics out there working that are just as good, if not BETTER than myself or Mark Gregory, or a few others, i don't need to mention the hand full that i know for sure that know what they're doing. Problem is, those same AZB members don't realize there's a world of difference between an "installer" and a "pool table mechanic"....LOL and yet the answer is simple, the "INSTALLER" is the one you hired in the first place to install that used/new pool table....that it turns out you're NOT happy with, the "pool table mechanic" is the person you try and find later to fix the job the first guys screwed up....only problem is, almost everyone else....is like the FIRST person you hired.....LMAO
 
trentfromtoledo said:
Glen Hancock, Mark Gregory and Jay Spielberg should all write the book. It would be good, something we can believe in. I only buy the books/ videos out there in an attempt to learn a couple of things I may have not already known, a method, a tool or material. There is something to learn from everyone / every book and some more than others.

Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

I agree, you can learn wrong from a book nust as fast as you can learn wrong following the last guy!!
 
Yes they should be written. With detail. It just takes the will. I believe it would be a good selling book. One that even knowledgeable mechanics would reference from time to time. It just needs to be done. The DVD’s are fine but hard to go back scan through and often the subtle yet important details are not shown.


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