Any instruction resources available for playing with an upright stance?

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Lanten77

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Hi, I'm an enthusiastic pool player who loves to practice and work on technique. My big problem is I have fused cervical discs and cervical arthritis. Having to lift my head up with a low stance, even if not very low, gives me a lot of neck pain, and I can't practice nearly as long as I would like. I know the old timers obviously played well with an upright stance. I appreciate all the great AZ, YouTube and written instruction available, but I haven't been able to find any good instruction specific to playing with an upright stance. I know a lot of the instruction for low-head stances can apply in general to both low and high, but it seems there must be some technique specific to upright stances, in particular for the right arm positions and stroke?

Anyone have any suggested reading or video resources that I can look at? Or, even if not actual instruction, if you have any suggestions for any reasonably current/modern pro or Semi-Pro players who play more upright that I can look for video or their matches, that would be great also. Thank you!
 
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Lanten77 said:
Hi, I'm an enthusiastic pool player who loves to practice and work on technique. My big problem is I have fused cervical discs and cervical arthritis. Having to lift my head up with a low stance, even if not very low, gives me a lot of neck pain, and I can't practice nearly as long as I would like. I know the old timers obviously played well with an upright stance. I appreciate all the great AZ, YouTube and written instruction available, but I haven't been able to find any good instruction specific to playing with an upright stance. I know a lot of the instruction for low-head stances can apply in general to both low and high, but it seems there must be some technique specific to upright stances, in particular for the right arm positions and stroke? Anyone have any suggested reading or video resources that I can look at? Thank you!
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I am not an instructor. This video of Mosconi shows his method. I know he talked about it some in his books too. I'd imagine there are instructors out there that are knowledgeable about upright stances and what to watch for, hopefully someone with more knowledge knows.
 
boogieman said:
I am not an instructor. This video of Mosconi shows his method. I know he talked about it some in his books too. I'd imagine there are instructors out there that are knowledgeable about upright stances and what to watch for, hopefully someone with more knowledge knows.
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Thanks Boogieman. This is the one video that I have seen. Can't make it look much easier than he does! I am curious to see if there are any slightly more modern players that play upright.
 
Same needed here. Need a stroke like Fats. Difficult to lean over and look up.
 
Again, I'm not an instructor. I empathize with your situation, back problems here, and sometimes I have to use multiple "base" stances depending on condition. As a kid I was taught upright because that's how my parents played (as well as most people in a small rural community). An upright stance can obviously work, proved by looking at the greats of the past.

I have noticed one thing, not directly related to an upright stance, but while addressing the ball if you feather the cue it gives you a ton of feedback. IMHO more feedback than even practice strokes. If the tip wavers during the feathering it can be multiple things. Your bridge may be out of line, your grip may be off, wrist twisted, too tight, or the stick may not be online with the shot. It's a good way to tinker but more importantly to confirm if your stick is actually on the shot line and going straight.

Once the feathering looks dead straight/not drifting/wobbling you can do some practice strokes to see that the cue is indeed online and will drive straight through the CB. When doing a practice stroke right before the execution I like to think "deliberate" I pause at the CB, then breath out to let my mind clear, then execute the shot.

If your tip doesn't waver you know your mechanics are working, no matter the height or how you address the ball. It even helps on oddball shots where you have to stretch, or even things like jump shots.

I think all the "textbook" things apply. You want to be balanced, have solid footing, somewhat comfortable or at least neutral feeling to the stance. Watch and analyze old matches, like even black and white era straight pool stuff can be beneficial. It doesn't supersede actual instruction from an instructor but it can be helpful for something to emulate.
 
dont obsess over it
just play
😜
(inside joke...we are friends )
 
You may find something online in carom instructions, or even watching carom matches. They tend to stand taller. But pool has evolved to low stances. Keep in mind that upright stances were popular in pool when the game they were playing was 14.1, and smaller strokes were used.

With an upright stance, you'll probably have to incorporate some kind of elbow drop into your stroke for anything bigger than a short stroke. Another technique the players who stood tall used to use was wrist-snapping action just at impact when they needed more speed to compensate for the lack of stroke length. It takes practice to get the timing right.

The proper weight distribution also changes a bit with an upright stance. For example: When we stand completely erect, good balance is when our weight is evenly distributed between both legs. The lower we stand and the more we bend over, the more we have to lean back on our back leg to counter the forward lean of our torso, to find balance. So depending on how upright your stance is and how much you bend over, your weight distribution will be somewhere between leaning back and evenly distributed. Whatever you do --- don't lean hard on your bridge hand. It can cause damage to your shoulder and add another issue to your injuries.

Also, your vision of the cue ball in a taller shooting stance changes a bit. Center ball may seem higher than it actually is because you're seeing less of the bottom-half of the ball, so make sure you do some drills so you can adjust your sighting.

Those are the main differences, I think.
 
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My 3C Mentor taught me about standing tall. I did that for many years. With 3C it kinda helps.
It's similar to looking at your shot before getting down.
Standing tall while in a shooting position gives you more of a that birds eye view. Playing 3C, that Birdseye view helps
with visualizing the CB path.

That's not your issue

He also taught me to raise my bridge... Palm off the table, similar to what we do to bridge over a ball. On Most Shots
Fats is the only one I can think of who used this bridge routinely.

Sang Lee stood tall but I don't think he used a fingertip bridge unless necessary. He stood tall although.

As Fran says, your perception of where your tip is landing on the CB will need to be practiced when standing tall.
As you noted many if not most of the very old timer Champions stood tall. To me that means there's nothing wrong with it.

Since you like to practice, this shouldn't be a problem.
 
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Lanten77 said:
Hi, I'm an enthusiastic pool player who loves to practice and work on technique. My big problem is I have fused cervical discs and cervical arthritis. Having to lift my head up with a low stance, even if not very low, gives me a lot of neck pain, and I can't practice nearly as long as I would like. I know the old timers obviously played well with an upright stance. I appreciate all the great AZ, YouTube and written instruction available, but I haven't been able to find any good instruction specific to playing with an upright stance. I know a lot of the instruction for low-head stances can apply in general to both low and high, but it seems there must be some technique specific to upright stances, in particular for the right arm positions and stroke?

Anyone have any suggested reading or video resources that I can look at? Or, even if not actual instruction, if you have any suggestions for any reasonably current/modern pro or Semi-Pro players who play more upright that I can look for video or their matches, that would be great also. Thank you!
Click to expand...
You need not be chin atop cue--a player can perform well with their head as high as two feet above the cue stick. Post some video footage or photos and several folks will offer more specific advice.
 
not an instructor
I recall watching a (instructional?) minnie fats vid where he's older, playing upright, but still firing them in
it can be done..I've messed with playing standing up myself, shooting with the bird's eye view was kinda cool
 
Lanten77 said:
... . I know the old timers obviously played well with an upright stance. ,,,
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There were some old timers who played remarkably upright, such as Jimmy Moore, but here are Mosconi and Caras and they are only a little higher than modern players. (And probably much lower than your neck will take.)


I don't think there is any special technique to help. Do you ever work on specific shots you have trouble with?
 
Lanten77 said:
Hi, I'm an enthusiastic pool player who loves to practice and work on technique. My big problem is I have fused cervical discs and cervical arthritis. Having to lift my head up with a low stance, even if not very low, gives me a lot of neck pain, and I can't practice nearly as long as I would like. I know the old timers obviously played well with an upright stance. I appreciate all the great AZ, YouTube and written instruction available, but I haven't been able to find any good instruction specific to playing with an upright stance. I know a lot of the instruction for low-head stances can apply in general to both low and high, but it seems there must be some technique specific to upright stances, in particular for the right arm positions and stroke?

Anyone have any suggested reading or video resources that I can look at? Or, even if not actual instruction, if you have any suggestions for any reasonably current/modern pro or Semi-Pro players who play more upright that I can look for video or their matches, that would be great also. Thank you!
Click to expand...
I played the owner of a local pool hall here in the St Augustine, FL area in 9-Ball last evening. I've been going there for a few years and when there's not much counter traffic for food and drink he'll occasionally invite me to play a few games with him.

I had already played 8-Ball for a few hours and was warmed up when he texted me to come up front to play a few games. I'm an OK shooter with a Fargo of something around 450, according to someone at League as I don't keep track of that. I mentioning these things for context as we played four races to 5 in 9-Ball on a 9-foot Gold Crown table. The results were embarrassing for me: 5-0, 5-0, 5-2, 5-2. We play loser breaks and usually that's my only time to the table. I joke in the rare events that he misses, that "I need to buy a lottery ticket."

He stands quite upright in his play and I've never seen anything like it before. His play seems to be so smooth and effortless, and he can move the cue ball around the table in an amazing manner. By comparison, I feel like it's my first week holding a stick and my game just falls apart in awe.

He also plays shape so well on his shots that I can't recall ever seeing him put a bridge hand on the table. All of his shots are from the cue resting horizontally over the to of the rail/cushion.

Now granted, he's probably been almost daily for some 15+ years or more, but I've never seen anything like it.

His name is Bobby Longo, owner of Anastasia Billiards in St. Augustine, Florida. I don't know where you're located, but I imagine he'd be open to providing some for fee instruction.
 
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I can offer a few suggestions for playing upright as the only reason I bailed on switching to an upright stance for my back was getting used to the vantage point. I didn't really have any issues getting a trustworthy repeatable stroke though.

First you have to understand that an upright stance makes the stroke much more of an obvious compound movement, meaning multiple joints are involved. Don't fight this by getting too rigid and trying to lock parts down and keep them in place. Even Mike Massey, who plays quite upright if you want to look at someone, said his feel for his big draws was to send the entire arm. Slow motion video showed that it wasn't what he was actually doing and there were definitely moments of stillness but the point is that you feel like you use the whole arm and allow it to work. How? Simple. Just throw.

A lot of instructors liken cueing to a simple toss of the cue. A higher stance makes this even easier and more natural. The elbow will float around a little bit even if it feels very stable...that's perfectly fine and natural and a result of using the arm efficiently to throw (but hold on to) the cue.

One key for stability is to keep the stroke arm next to the body. The upper arm stays connected to the torso for a good portion. Other than that, you are loose and relaxed through the arm which hangs naturally at your side when standing. As you get down, you try to maintain that long hanging feel by getting your elbow back and keeping the length between your head and elbow close to maxed out as it would be when hanging. Don't get cramped up or tight. Stay relaxed and long and allow your entire arm to gently flow with the cue as you toss the momentum of the tip towards your target. Getting the elbow back and keeping this distance will build in an anchor for your arm and make the stroke much more stable and repeatable, keeping the full arm feel, but getting a much more locked down and segmented look that appears like you have a still elbow, even tho if you really look closely, it will float around a bit even if that bit is less than an inch for anything but power shots.

These lil keys worked for me and the few higher stance students I've had. Hope they help you too.
 
Thanks for those insights WobblyStroke!

I may have arthritis in my neck which is making road bike riding and pool playing a cramp. I may be trying out this upright stance in the future.
 
If you do stand up more, it may help to have a shorter cue stick. It seems to me that if you raise your shoulders, the distance between your bridge hand and grip hand will decrease. That will make a shorter cue, or at least a forward-weighted cue, a better match.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you do stand up more, it may help to have a shorter cue stick. It seems to me that if you raise your shoulders, the distance between your bridge hand and grip hand will decrease. That will make a shorter cue, or at least a forward-weighted cue, a better match.
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Good point. Many of the old timers with high stances gripped the cue way up in the middle of the wrap which you almost never see anymore unless the guy is playing a 65" cue in a low stance. When I played higher, I def didn't grip as far back as when lower.
 
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