Any leagues out there promote the sport

K

Kevin3824

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This topic is about pool league play. I began looking at the leagues that play in my area. I live and work in Scranton, PA. I know pool is not the favorite pastime in this area. I also know that this area is a pretty serious drinking area in general. We have a large population of college students in this area from all over the tri-state area. I know there are a few different types of leagues around here among them are TAPS, APA, Scranton Pool League. Also within an hour drive of here I could likely find a BCA league as well.

I understand that the majority of the leagues are team based. I also understand that they have caps on the combined skill levels of individual teams. Players are ranked by skill level to implement handicaps to try and make the game fairer for the unskilled players.

What I am not seeing in any of those leagues is any inspiration for players to practice or improve their individual skill levels. I see the direct opposite happening. If a player puts in the time and effort to improve they are faced with harder and harder handicaps. In fact if they put in a lot of time and effort and become highly skilled they risk being kicked off their teams or even out of their league entirely. If their league determines they play at a skill level beyond their idea of amateur. Yes, I know if their team wins enough they may earn a trip to SBE or even Vegas but if they saved their weekly dues and expenses they might be able to afford those trips on their own.

As an outsider looking in around my area the leagues here seem to be nothing more than a reason for a group of friends to get together and drink and bang balls around a pool table in a bar once or twice a week.

I know not all leagues are like that and nothing I can say or do will change anything. I have however heard that the fargo rating system may be very accurate at rating players. If that is true then why have no leagues come up with a system to separate the players by skill levels for matches in a way to promote them to strive to improve their game. Maybe something prize based where the higher level players earn more money or prizes. Making it more like weekly tournaments. It would be nice if the pool halls could somehow get together and organize competitions and tournaments between themselves in a network. Something like that might do a lot in the way of making the sport more popular. If that could be arranged one could have local, county, state, regional, and national tournament levels. It would be nice to see some sort of system in place to promote pool excellence and skill. The existing system I see is failing miserably. The Idea of a governing body for pool is great as long as it promotes people to compete and strive to continually improve their skill level.

Many of the recognized sports out there have children learning the basics from a young age. While most of those children never go professional the ones that do seem to be able to make a substantial living at it. Pool never grew up like that. Most of of the best players in the world today started playing at a young age but did not win any major tournaments until they were in their late teens or early twenties. In today’s generation we have children and young adults that have no idea what pool is or how to play it at all.
 
Tap leagues

Kevin.....you might not agree but all leagues promote the sport. Some better then others. I been involved with TAP ( not TAPS) since 1997 and I believe we are the best league for the amateur players. You mentioned if they play they can save enough money to go to Las Vegas or the Super Billiard Expo but then once you get to Las Vegas is there an event for you to play in? Part of the team process and experience is competing against other teams and with your friends to get there as one unit to the national events. TAP leagues do promote the sport by having many underage youngsters playing on teams. I personally can verify this because my son played in the league when he was only 17 years old and my own daughter who is 16 years old now plays on a team here in Pennsylvania. You also mention what incentive there is for a player to to improve since he will get a higher handicap but I see many players trying to improve to get to the best skill level possible. Of course in any handicap League you're always going to have those few people to try to watch their handicaps but with are handicapping system Poolnet, we will stack our system up against anybody out there. Plus we are the only thing in the world that has a scorekeeping app tied into the handicapping system. Like I said with any handicap league players will try to work the system but I am seeing more and more players will have more self-respect for their game and honesty. It's up to every player to choose the league that fits their needs the best. TAP in my personal opinion is the best league out there for the amateur players. TAP ON!!
 
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I can agree with most of what you wrote. I myself HATE the team handicap cap rule, because as you said it's supposed to be fun with your group of friends getting together and drinking and playing. With the cap it almost always ends up having to split the team up. In another thread I came up with a very realistic way of keeping most teams together by raising the cap to between 25-30 ( I favor the 30 ). It has been said many times that the real reason for the cap rule is to force tea ms to break up, forcing people to get new players in the league ( 2's and 3's ) ultimately resulting in more teams ( ie more weekly dues ). I'll be the first to admit it's a great business plan, but it really sucks for those that just want to be on a team with their friends and have a good time once or twice a week.
 
Bmore I understand that TAP may be the way to go for a large group of the population especially around a place like here with so many bars. On the other hand it is not really suited to be played in a pool hall that serves no alcohol and is a non smoking environment. When I go out to play pool it is not to drink or smoke it is to play pool. I typically prefer individual competition as opposed to team competition. I guess that makes me more of a tournament type person. Maybe it is because of the roots of the TAP and APA that it seems to be so connected to bars and alcohol. I see the leagues all promoting pool as a team sport and not really wanting it to become an individual competition.

If as an individual you practice and improve you can still be held back by your team. The team caps will also make you less attractive to most teams as you approach the highest skill rating. Seems like it almost forces you to become a team captain if you are a high skill level just to simply be able to play.

I agree with you though if the skill levels are not separated in the competition the handicapping system is not likely to make players levels even. There are at least two different types of players. Those that want to play the best they can and strive to be great at it. Then there are those that want to simply go out with friends drink and bang balls around with friends but are not serious about practice or playing better. It seems to me the leagues out there are looking to promote pool as something fun to do with friends while out partying.

There does not seem to be a clear path between playing in a league and being able to support yourself playing pool as a professional. In fact it seems to me you would be kicked out of any of those leagues if you attained a skill level even close enough to support yourself or a family solely with your pool skills.
 
Yes league pool players have a reputation of just using pool as a means to socialize and drink.

However there are exceptions for every negative assumption concerning leagues. I play on 5 apa teams. Only two tams has any one that drinks....both teams has only one player that drinks and both do it in moderation.


Another misconception is that no one wants to get better. I just had a 3 call me yesterday afternoon asking me if I was willing to meet her at the pool hall and work with her on her game.


You cant lump all league players I one category because there are always exceptions.

There are plenty of negatives about league players if you want to look for them but there are plenty of positives out there also.....which Is what i prefer to embrace instead of constantly looking for reasons to hate league players..
 
Kevin3824 said:
Bmore I understand that TAP may be the way to go for a large group of the population especially around a place like here with so many bars. On the other hand it is not really suited to be played in a pool hall that serves no alcohol and is a non smoking environment. When I go out to play pool it is not to drink or smoke it is to play pool. I typically prefer individual competition as opposed to team competition. I guess that makes me more of a tournament type person. Maybe it is because of the roots of the TAP and APA that it seems to be so connected to bars and alcohol. I see the leagues all promoting pool as a team sport and not really wanting it to become an individual competition.

If as an individual you practice and improve you can still be held back by your team. The team caps will also make you less attractive to most teams as you approach the highest skill rating. Seems like it almost forces you to become a team captain if you are a high skill level just to simply be able to play.

I agree with you though if the skill levels are not separated in the competition the handicapping system is not likely to make players levels even. There are at least two different types of players. Those that want to play the best they can and strive to be great at it. Then there are those that want to simply go out with friends drink and bang balls around with friends but are not serious about practice or playing better. It seems to me the leagues out there are looking to promote pool as something fun to do with friends while out partying.

There does not seem to be a clear path between playing in a league and being able to support yourself playing pool as a professional. In fact it seems to me you would be kicked out of any of those leagues if you attained a skill level even close enough to support yourself or a family solely with your pool skills.
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Kevin, maybe I disregarded your PM too soon ( I stopped reading it and responded what I did because what you referenced was a comment made by another poster - not me ). Anyway, I don't really have any problems with leagues, I think they are great for getting together with friends, playing some funnsies pool, and throwing some back. My biggest problem ( really my only ) is the cap thing that splits teams up. I'm not a really a league guy and that in essence takes away the only thing I'd be playing in the first place lol. As far as getting better and tournaments and what not, that's not me either. I'm not big on tournaments and would rarely play in them. I'm an action guy. That's what I find fun.I suppose if you've never held a pool cue before you could get " better " by participating in leagues but that's not the path I chose. Partially because I started playing around 12-13, and by no later than 16 I was already beating most of the "7's " in your area ( not that 7's are all that good in the grand scope of pool players but we are talking about league here . I learned the old school way. Hung in the pool rooms always in action, paid my dues just like everyone else, and was lucky enough to have some of the best players take me " under their wing ".
 
Valid points but...

I agree on many of the points you guys brought up. Leagues are not for everyone. If you prefer to play in pool room tournys then by all means thats what you should do. Not all league teams are there to party and in fact most in my league are there for the competition and to move on to larger events such as the Rally at the SBE and our nationals as well as local session ending Titleholders. A point was made about extending the cap limit on teams to 25-30. TAP is at 25 points and always has been but if this is any higher then you cut out the lower end players as well as making matches last all night. People have to work in the morning. In TAP I have seen groups of players (5 or so) stay together for years so that point doesn't hold water in TAP. And I been running leagues since 1997 so I know this first hand. Cutting out the lower end players kills your sport by not bringing in and helping the new players learn the game. Dont forget, we were all there at one time. Very few of us are naturals and we all had to learn the game and this takes time. Leagues really help the new players learn the right way to play the game. Perfect example is my 16 year old daughter. She is improving every week in league play. Last summer when she started she had to be told how to play a good safe. Now she sees the basic safes and even some higher level safes that a intermediate player sees. League play helps these players develop their game and when they win it lights a fire to practice even more. The thing about TAP compared to the APA is we dont slop balls in so it teaches players that are new to not bang balls around and hope for luck. Huge difference. IMO. I have watched many new players come in at beginner caps and improve over time. Leagues help them gauge their progress from practice, good coaching and competition.
 
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Sam at TAP said:
Kevin.....you might not agree but all leagues promote the sport. Some better then others. I been involved with TAP ( not TAPS) since 1997 and I believe we are the best league fir the amateur players. You mentioned if they play they can save enough money to go to Las Vegas for the super billiard Expo but then once you get to Las Vegas is there an event for you to play in? Part of the team process and experience is competing against other teams and with your friends to get there as one unit the national events. TAP leagues do promote the sport by having many underage youngsters playing on teams. I personally can verify this because my son played in the league when he was only 17 years old and my own daughter who is 16 years old plays on a team here in Pennsylvania. You also mention what incentive there is for a player to to improve since he will get a higher handicap but I see many players trying to improve to get to the best skill level possible. Of course in any handicap League you're always going to have those few people to try to watch their handicaps but with are handicapping system Poolnet, we will stack our system up against anybody out there. Plus we are the only thing in the world that has a scorekeeping app tied into the handicapping system. Like I said with any handicap league players will try to work the system but I am seeing more and more players will have more self-respect for their game and honesty. It's up to every player to choose the league that fits their needs the best. TAP in my personal opinion is the best league out there for the amateur players. TAP ON!!
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I understand you believe the TAP league is the best. I have not played in it personally so I will not argue the points with you . Instead I would like to know more about how you see it as promoting the sport. I would also know how people under 18 can play in a league that is Bar based. Around here minors are not allowed into the bars at all. You mentioned it was the best amateur league but who defines amateur? Is an amateur simply defined by a person not making a living playing pool? In what way does the TAP league promote a player to strive to become a skilled enough player to be able to compete with professional players? If a player does attain a skill level that high would they be banned from the league? Even if they do not make a living from playing pool? It seems to me if your not high up in the top 25 players and more likely the top 10-15 in the world then you are not making a living after expenses. I think that can be stated more so if you have a family to support. If your not making a living from it then by definition your not a professional.

That was only a simple concept I have bothering me about pool . Now does TAP reward the individual players or the teams they are on? If it is solely team based then no matter how skilled you are if your team mates do not put in the same efforts you do to improve their skill level can easily cause your team to lose. In which case your personal practice and efforts would not be rewarded. Plus if all of your teammates put in a lot of time to drills and practice they would all become better and the team cap would force you to split apart. Or does the TAP league not have team skill level caps? At what point does the TAP league determine you have attained the highest skill level as an amateur? For example lets say I walked up to you and wanted to join a team you run that had an opening. Having never played in a league prior. Around here I would start at about a skill level 4 because I have no history of playing prior leagues. Now what would happen if I had already practiced enough on my own to be able to run a rack or put together a 6 pack on a semi regular basis in eight or nine ball? From what I understand that kind of skill level would be viewed as not an amateur. However based upon what I have read there seems to be a movement now to make people qualify to play pro through winning of amateur tournaments. Similar to the idea of earning your Pro Card.
 
Let me try to answer your questions

Wow...You got a lot of questions. Lets take them one at a time. I copied your post and answered each one in caps to make it easy.

I understand you believe the TAP league is the best. I have not played in it personally so I will not argue the points with you . Instead I would like to know more about how you see it as promoting the sport. I would also know how people under 18 can play in a league that is Bar based. Around here minors are not allowed into the bars at all. You mentioned it was the best amateur league but who defines amateur? MANY BARS AND CLUBS IN PA. ALLOW UNDERAGE PLAYERS IN IF THEY ARE WITH A ADULT OR PARENT.

Is an amateur simply defined by a person not making a living playing pool? TAP GOES BY SEVERAL PRO LIST, EARNINGS AND GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE PLAYER IN QUESTION
In what way does the TAP league promote a player to strive to become a skilled enough player to be able to compete with professional players? MOST OF OUR PLAYERS ARE NOT STRIVING TO BE A PRO. BEING A PRO IS A TOUGH LIVING. JUST ASK ANY OF THEM OUT THERE. TAP HAS HAD SEVERAL PLAYERS THAT WENT ON TO THE PRO RANKS..BRITTANY BRYANT, JOHN MORRA AND SHAWN WILKIE ARE THREE THAT COME TO MIND.

If a player does attain a skill level that high would they be banned from the league? YES
Even if they do not make a living from playing pool? IF YOUR CONSIDERED A PRO BY RANKINGS AND EARNINGS THEN YOUR A PRO.

It seems to me if your not high up in the top 25 players and more likely the top 10-15 in the world then you are not making a living after expenses. I think that can be stated more so if you have a family to support. If your not making a living from it then by definition your not a professional.BUT YOU PLAY AT A PRO LEVEL AND JUST BECAUSE THIS PERSON DOES NOT GO OUT TO PLAY IN PRO EVENTS DOES NOT MAKE HIS PRO SKILL LEVEL ANY LESS.

That was only a simple concept I have bothering me about pool . Now does TAP reward the individual players or the teams they are on? YES BUT THAT DEPENDS ON LOCAL TAP OPS ON WHAT THEY WANT TO DO

If it is solely team based then no matter how skilled you are if your team mates do not put in the same efforts you do to improve their skill level can easily cause your team to lose. In which case your personal practice and efforts would not be rewarded. Plus if all of your teammates put in a lot of time to drills and practice they would all become better and the team cap would force you to split apart. Or does the TAP league not have team skill level caps? 25 POINTS
At what point does the TAP league determine you have attained the highest skill level as an amateur? TAP GOES TO A 7 IN A 8 BALL HANDICAP. IT IS AT A 7 IN 9 BALL NOW BUT THAT MAY CHANGE IN THE FUTURE.
For example lets say I walked up to you and wanted to join a team you run that had an opening. Having never played in a league prior. Around here I would start at about a skill level 4 because I have no history of playing prior leagues. Now what would happen if I had already practiced enough on my own to be able to run a rack or put together a 6 pack on a semi regular basis in eight or nine ball? WELL THEN YOUR NOT A 4 CAP IF YOU DO THAT NOW ARE YOU?
From what I understand that kind of skill level would be viewed as not an amateur. However based upon what I have read there seems to be a movement now to make people qualify to play pro through winning of amateur tournaments. Similar to the idea of earning your Pro Card.

PS..TAP HAS A PROGRAM CALLED TAP X WHICH IS NO HANDICAPPED FORMATS AND ANY PLAYER, AMATEURS AND PROS CAN PLAY IN.

I HOPE THIS HAS HELPED YOU OUT.
 
Sam at TAP said:
I agree on many of the points you guys brought up. Leagues are not for everyone. If you prefer to play in pool room tournys then by all means thats what you should do. Not all league teams are there to party and in fact most in my league are there for the competition and to move on to larger events such as the Rally at the SBE and our nationals as well as local session ending Titleholders. A point was made about extending the cap limit on teams to 25-30. TAP is at 25 points and always has been but if this is any higher then you cut out the lower end players as well as making matches last all night. People have to work in the morning. In TAP I have seen groups of players (5 or so) stay together for years so that point doesn't hold water in TAP. And I been running leagues since 1997 so I know this first hand. Cutting out the lower end players kills your sport by not bringing in and helping new players learn the game. Dont forget, we were all there at one time. Very few of us are naturals and we all had to learn the game and this takes time. Leagues really help the new players learn the right way to play the game. Perfect example is my 16 year old daughter. She is improving every week in league play. Last summer when she started she had to be told how to play a good safe. Now she sees the basic safes and even some higher level safes that a intermediate player sees. League play helps these players develop their game and when they win it lights a fire to practice even more. The thing about TAP compared to the APA is we dont slop balls in so it teaches players that are new to not bang balls around and hope for luck. Huge difference. IMO.
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I discussed my idea in depth in another thread but I will go over it briefly here. First of all my intention is in no way " cutting out " the lesser skilled players. It's actually exactly the opposite end of the spectrum - being able to keep teams together ( with the higher skill leveled players that are already there ). Also, if anything it would speed up the night. who's gonna finish faster - a couple 7's playing or a couple 2's lol, or even a combination of a 7 and a 2. Here's what my break down looked like and I modled it after my own team which is what got me thinking about ithe in the first place. 3 chics S/L 5, 4 ANDROID A 2 ABOUT TO BE A 3. 3 Dudes S/L - 7,6, and then me ( need to explain ) I was a 4 since I was new to league. There was no way I would stay a 4. While I can't garantee what I would have ended up as, it surely would have been 7,8, or 9 if I did not bag ( which I totally did not want to do. I do know that I spot the guy that's a 7 on my team the 6 for the cash and it could go either way ( with the 7 I crush him every time.

So let's be conservative and say I ended up being a 7. We would not have even been allowed to compete NOT EVEN ONE WEAK! The lowest handicap we could field would be 25! The response I got from the other thread was stuff like " well leagues supposed to be for fun!". I agree with that 100%, as I've said that was the only reason I was doing it, to play, drink and hang out with friends. It certainly wasn't for the money lol. If I'm in action I have a chance to win more in one set than if we take down the whole session! lol. It wasn't cause I want a trophy, I'm not really into that kinda stuff and if I was I'd be playing tournies. Another thing people said in that thread " well its to discourage people from loading up teams ". Well I say, if the cap is 30 then we would be fielding someone from pretty much every skill level ( 3,4,5,6,7). How is that loading up??? It certainly isn't like we are trying to put 5 7's up against 5 2's. Also worth mentioning, everything I've read and heard, they say the average skill level in APA is right around 4-5. well guess what our average s/l would have been fielded ----- That's right 5!!!!!! Another thing said in that thread was " well what fun would it be and how fair would it be to often having higher skill levels play against low skilled players " to which my response was, well according the the VERY WORDS OUT OF APA's mouth ( with our equalizer system it makes it fun and competitive for players of all skill levels and experience ) . So we all already know from time to time a 7 will play a 2, a 6 against a 3 and so on. So my question is does that mean your equalizer actually doesn't make things so equal lol? Either it does or it doesn't and if it truly does then this should be totally irrelevant!

So as to the question about playing leagues to get better : they sure do give you every incentive NOT TO get better. I know plenty of people that have zero interest in the token prizes given away, they just want to have a fun night with their friends. They are ultimately left with the choices of sandbagging to be able to stay with your friends / team, OR chance going to another team where no one likes one another. Many people call us " conspiracy theorists " but I do whole heartedly believe it is set up the way it is to bust up teams, create more teas ( more weakly revenue ), and force current players to solicit new players to fill those coveted S/L 2's and 3's.
 
Not sure how big the leagues are or the quantity of players in Scranton, but if you have enough demand, you can have a separate league for stronger players.

In an effort to attract beginners, some leagues intentionally setup their beginner leagues to give the advantage to the weaker player. Ball handicaps, balls come off at end of the run in 8 ball, alternate break, no call shot, no 3 fouling, etc..

By the time players improve to intermediate level, they are itching to move onto the advanced league. Winner break, rack your own, game spots, singles leagues with divisions based on ability.

If you have enough serious players that want it, it can be done.
 
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ronscuba said:
Not sure how big the leagues are or the quantity of players in Scranton, but if you have enough demand, you can have a separate league for stronger players.

In an effort to attract beginners, some leagues intentionally setup their beginner leagues to give the advantage to the weaker player. Ball handicaps, balls come off at end of the run in 8 ball, alternate break, no call shot, no 3 fouling, etc..

By the time players improve to intermediate level, they are itching to move onto the advanced league. Winner break, rack your own, game spots, singles leagues with divisions based on ability.

If you have enough serious players that want it, it can be done.
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In my case, we have a huge league system ( which also includes a Masters league ). That may sound like a solution but it's not. The group of friends we had for this team was half chics and half dudes. The chic would have little to no interest in playing Masters and they guys could always just go hang out and play at a real pool hall. So in the interest of everyone having fun APA It was. I imagine plenty of others run into this same situation .
 
BmoreMoney said:
In my case, we have a huge league system ( which also includes a Masters league ). That may sound like a solution but it's not. The group of friends we had for this team was half chics and half dudes. The chic would have little to no interest in playing Masters and they guys could always just go hang out and play at a real pool hall. So in the interest of everyone having fun APA It was. I imagine plenty of others run into this same situation .
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Have you tried getting on an established team in the masters league ?

I play in NYC. With the large population, there are many different leagues with something to fit pretty much every type. Here, APA is generally considered for lower level, less serious play.
 
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Kevin,

IMHO, I do not believe promoting the game of pool by any league is in its best interest. That should be the job of the national sanctioning body aka Billiards Congress of America. They are supposed to be the ones pushing the game of pool.

Yes, the individual groups sanctioning leagues in their format, promote the game. As you can see from some replies it usually takes the form of "join our league, our system is better" than "we don't care whose league you join, or even if you don't join one, just play pool!". Wouldn't it be great to see all of them promoting that concept! At the same time no less! Talk about a field of dreams.

Annually I play under five formats. APA, BCAPL, ACS, VNEA and in-house. As TAP Nationals are going to be held in Vegas next November, I will probably add that format as well. Each has their own handicap format. Accepting a universal handicap system would be the end of that league system as they have essentially nothing else to sell the players. Fair and balanced my a$$! Practice and get better? Not a chance! Don't need to go there as there are already enough threads on AZ discussing that subject.

As I stated, this is JMHO. Formulated with fifty eight years of playing pool. The last twenty six as part of a sanctioned league system.

Lyn
 
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Kevin3824 said:
This topic is about pool league play. I began looking at the leagues that play in my area. I live and work in Scranton, PA. I know pool is not the favorite pastime in this area. I also know that this area is a pretty serious drinking area in general. We have a large population of college students in this area from all over the tri-state area. I know there are a few different types of leagues around here among them are TAPS, APA, Scranton Pool League. Also within an hour drive of here I could likely find a BCA league as well.

I understand that the majority of the leagues are team based. I also understand that they have caps on the combined skill levels of individual teams. Players are ranked by skill level to implement handicaps to try and make the game fairer for the unskilled players.

What I am not seeing in any of those leagues is any inspiration for players to practice or improve their individual skill levels. I see the direct opposite happening. If a player puts in the time and effort to improve they are faced with harder and harder handicaps. In fact if they put in a lot of time and effort and become highly skilled they risk being kicked off their teams or even out of their league entirely. If their league determines they play at a skill level beyond their idea of amateur. Yes, I know if their team wins enough they may earn a trip to SBE or even Vegas but if they saved their weekly dues and expenses they might be able to afford those trips on their own.

As an outsider looking in around my area the leagues here seem to be nothing more than a reason for a group of friends to get together and drink and bang balls around a pool table in a bar once or twice a week.

I know not all leagues are like that and nothing I can say or do will change anything. I have however heard that the fargo rating system may be very accurate at rating players. If that is true then why have no leagues come up with a system to separate the players by skill levels for matches in a way to promote them to strive to improve their game. Maybe something prize based where the higher level players earn more money or prizes. Making it more like weekly tournaments. It would be nice if the pool halls could somehow get together and organize competitions and tournaments between themselves in a network. Something like that might do a lot in the way of making the sport more popular. If that could be arranged one could have local, county, state, regional, and national tournament levels. It would be nice to see some sort of system in place to promote pool excellence and skill. The existing system I see is failing miserably. The Idea of a governing body for pool is great as long as it promotes people to compete and strive to continually improve their skill level.

Many of the recognized sports out there have children learning the basics from a young age. While most of those children never go professional the ones that do seem to be able to make a substantial living at it. Pool never grew up like that. Most of of the best players in the world today started playing at a young age but did not win any major tournaments until they were in their late teens or early twenties. In today’s generation we have children and young adults that have no idea what pool is or how to play it at all.
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The USAPL league I have played in is great, run by a certified instructor and lawyer, has a Masters division, has 3 junior leagues, and has had a one pocket and 14.1 division also but those never got more than a half dozen players playing those. Uses real rules (no silly mark pocket or no called shot in 8 ball). The people around the league for a while are welcome to give advice about players sandbagging or new players starting too low for their skill, and the people running the league adjust handicaps manually if needed. There is no "well I'm a 50 in the system" when everyone knows this A player should be a 100.
 
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