Any regrets on shimming pockets?

[catscradle]

going past a certain amount is going to make certain shots very very difficult. The classic example is drawing a ball that's 1/2 - 1" off the rail...there's a good chance it rattles.

At home it is principally about honing my accuracy. Which the 4 1/2" sometimes with, sometimes without the modified pocket reducers (see my other post) are excellent for. When I go to a normal table, I can still adjust to cheat the pocket to move the ball around, but when I've a really tough shot that practice on small pockets proves itself.
JMHO.

 

[Tommy Tube Sock]

Thanks for all the input - how about a mechanic in NE?

Thanks for all the responses. I understand now that if I decide to shim, just adding facings to the existing rubber is not the right way to go. I need to get new rubber cut parallel and add shims to that – thanks to Barbara, Andrew Manning and Plyn Sets.

I would love to know of any mechanics in the Boston area who can do this kind of work. I bought the table from Recreation World in Framingham/Natick. From what I understand, they do the tables at Boston Billiards and Country Club USA in Chelmsford. CC USA has 4.75 pockets on their CC III’s that were used at the IPT qualifier. (I think)

I have had some issues with Recreation World, however. When the table was first set up, I inquired about shimming, and they dismissed the idea out of hand. (To be fair, I waited until they were at the house to bring it up – I’m sure they just wanted to set up the table and get out of there at that point) But after the set up, I had recurring problems with the slates separating and causing ridges. After the first “fix”, they had to come again and apply some kind of adhesive to bond the slates together. They bragged about how this glue was so tough that once adhered, nothing could separate it. I wonder now if I could ever move my table. I called after that to see if they could re-level the table (the table is sits on a new addition above the garage and on carpet, so some settling is expected) 2 calls, 2 messages, 0 return calls.

So can anyone recommend a mechanic in New England?

 

[catscradle]

Thanks for all the responses. I understand now that if I decide to shim, just adding facings to the existing rubber is not the right way to go. I need to get new rubber cut parallel and add shims to that – thanks to Barbara, Andrew Manning and Plyn Sets.

I would love to know of any mechanics in the Boston area who can do this kind of work. I bought the table from Recreation World in Framingham/Natick. From what I understand, they do the tables at Boston Billiards and Country Club USA in Chelmsford. CC USA has 4.75 pockets on their CC III’s that were used at the IPT qualifier. (I think)

I have had some issues with Recreation World, however. When the table was first set up, I inquired about shimming, and they dismissed the idea out of hand. (To be fair, I waited until they were at the house to bring it up – I’m sure they just wanted to set up the table and get out of there at that point) But after the set up, I had recurring problems with the slates separating and causing ridges. After the first “fix”, they had to come again and apply some kind of adhesive to bond the slates together. They bragged about how this glue was so tough that once adhered, nothing could separate it. I wonder now if I could ever move my table. I called after that to see if they could re-level the table (the table is sits on a new addition above the garage and on carpet, so some settling is expected) 2 calls, 2 messages, 0 return calls.

So can anyone recommend a mechanic in New England?

I'm in Weymouth and had mine shimmed (with a recover) by D & L Billiards of Providence. They were by far and away the best price. They did an acceptible job; the shimmed pockets play right, but the shims weren't quite the right fit and it doesn't look as nice as I'd like.
I bought my table from Ac-cue-rate Billiards in Pelham, NH and they did a very good job with the original setup. However when I priced the recover and pocket shim they were the highest. If you're not terribly concerned about price I'd recommend them, in hindsight I'd wished I'd gone with them.
I think staying away from Recreation World is a very wise thing. When I was first looking at tables I looked in there, I felt like I had walked in to a used car lot. I worked in Framingham at the time and they put a table in my work place, they really did a poor job.
Maybe if you just walked in CCUSA and asked Dave where his tables are done, he can just tell you.
Don't Jerry and Nadine Mazzola live in Acton? If you know them, I'm sure they'll know the best in your area.
BTW, new rubber will run a lot more than additional shims on your existing rails, but it is the proper way.

 

[pawnmon]

Barbara has the correct info in her post. Longer rails is the way to reduce those buckets. I've tried shimming and unless you get it done by someone who really knows how to shim pockets you'll probably end up with a bad result. I've got an Ohlhausen Pro-8 with 4 and one half inch pockets (ordered it that way) and the corner pockets are a little stingy. But when I go out to shoot it's a lot easier for me to pocket what I'm aiming at. Less than 4 and one half inch pockets will drive you nuts.

 

[Icon of Sin]

My pockets on my 8ft were shimmed to 4 1/2 upon installation of it. I never regretted it. Really helps out when playing league on Valley Bar table.

 

[Tommy Tube Sock]

Don't Jerry and Nadine Mazzola live in Acton? If you know them, I'm sure they'll know the best in your area.

I don't know them, should I? (probably a dumb question ?)

 

[KMRUNOUT]

At one time, I know Mike X of Accubilliards in New Bedford was doing table work. From what I had seen, he does an excellent job.

I definitely recommend in favor of a small pocket. I have always preferred tight tables. Mine at home are double shimmed and I believe are 4.5". I also use the Practice Pro reducers and LOVE them. In fact, I would attribute one of the largest gains in my game to shooting with these. As you probably know, they can be very frustrating. If you just keep doing it, however, it will eventually lead to a refinement of your stroke and a big jump in accuracy. If I had to do it over again, I would get the rubber cut onger on the rails, or whatever shimless method accomplishes this. I think the pocket shims take away from the playability, especially if you hit the point of a corner pocket. I am going to set up my table again soon, and I will probably stick with what I have now-4.5" pockets, maybe a little bigger, and then use the pocket reducers when I want an "accuracy workout". I used to see if I could run all 15 balls with the reducers in. At first, I couldn't do it to save my life. And I was still a low "B" player at the time. I couldn't even consider playing position, I just had to make the ball. Now I can regularly runout, and it has helped with my position play. It has just brought my overall level of precision way up. (Still a B player, though!!). The only big issue is that the reducers don't play at all like a regular pocket, so this would be a case where the practice table does not reflect the conditions of the table where I might play a real match. Usually this is an advantage, but not always. I would do 4.5" pockets and use the reducers once in a while for accuracy training.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Barbara]

I don't know them, should I? (probably a dumb question ?)

Jerry and Nadine Mazzola are the brains and heart of the Hopkins' Super Billiards Expo Amateur Tournament Directorship. They are the ones in charge. Jerry and Nadine have been on the pool scene for countless years and Nadine was a WPBA Touring Pro at one time. They would know just about anything "pool" in the NE area and then some.

Barbara

 

[jwpretd]

You might want to read the equipment specifications on pocket sizes, angles, etc. The full set is at

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_spec

Below, I've quoted the relevant section on pocket sizes. These specifications are now for both WPA (i.e., international) and BCA play. The old BCA rules were a little looser; I believe up to 5 inch corner pockets were allowed (and, thus, up to 5 1/2 inch side pockets) and the maximum shelf depth was a little shallower. Note in particular, in contrast to what some people here have suggested about using parallel pocket cuts on the rails, the pocket cut angles are absolutely fixed at 142 degrees for corner pockets and 104 degrees for side pockets.

Shelf depth makes a big difference in the way pockets play, but there's not much you can do about it (sanely, anyway).

-- jwp

Excerpted from WPA table specifications (rule 9):

Only rubber facings of minimum 1/16 [1.5875 mm] to maximum ¼ inch [6.35 mm] thick may be used at pocket jaws. The WPA-preferred maximum thickness for facings is 1/8 inch [3.175 mm]. The facings on both sides of the pockets must be of the same thickness. Facings must be of hard re-enforced rubber glued with strong bond to the cushion and the rail, and adequately fastened to the wood rail liner to prevent shifting. The rubber of the facings should be somewhat harder than that of the cushions.

The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other - where the nose of the cushion changes direction - to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ¼ inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]

 

[BulletZoo]

I had a shim come a little loose under the felt on the inside of a rail. My table mechanic fixed this for me when he refelted the table.

 

[catscradle]

Jerry and Nadine Mazzola are the brains and heart of the Hopkins' Super Billiards Expo Amateur Tournament Directorship. They are the ones in charge. Jerry and Nadine have been on the pool scene for countless years and Nadine was a WPBA Touring Pro at one time. They would know just about anything "pool" in the NE area and then some.

Barbara

Barbara pretty much said it all about Jerry & Nadine. If you're looking for some pretty good practice drills check here Nadine's Drills.

 

[Tommy Tube Sock]

Jerry and Nadine Mazzola are the brains and heart of the Hopkins' Super Billiards Expo Amateur Tournament Directorship. They are the ones in charge. Jerry and Nadine have been on the pool scene for countless years and Nadine was a WPBA Touring Pro at one time. They would know just about anything "pool" in the NE area and then some.

Barbara

Wow! and they live in Acton? (according to Cat's Cradle) Do they post on AZ? Any chance I could pick their brains on table mechanics? Would they want to come over and teach me some lessons some day?

 

[catscradle]

Wow! and they live in Acton? (according to Cat's Cradle) Do they post on AZ? Any chance I could pick their brains on table mechanics? Would they want to come over and teach me some lessons some day?

I am under impression they live in Acton because that's where they lived when Nadine was still on the list of active BCA certified instructors. I contacted them about lessons several years ago, but Jerry informed me that the were too busy with all their other endeavors.
Things change... Maybe they no longer live in Acton, maybe they are giving lessons again... A good friend of mine got lessons from Nadine, but I believe that was only because she knew her from other pool related interactions.
I forget where I found their email, probably from the list of BCA instructors which I think they chose to be removed from. I checked the active list just now and they are no longer on it. As a matter of fact, nobody from MA is. Try the white pages in Acton.
They are good people from my limited experiences with them, but I suspect they are also still quite busy.

BTW, I had forgotten about Mike X. who KMRUNOUT mentioned. He is reputed to be one of the best table mechanics around. And supposed to be a pretty sporty player besides.

 

[Tommy Tube Sock]

I am under impression they live in Acton .because that's where they lived when Nadine was still on the list of active BCA certified instructors. ... Maybe they no longer live in Acton ... Try the white pages in Acton.
They are good people from my limited experiences with them, but I suspect they are also still quite busy.

Okay I found them on superpages.com. Yes they still live in Acton, but I'm not about to call them cold. I feel like a stalker as is. If anyone knows them enough, I would very much appreciate an introduction.