Anyone ever practice rail first draw shots?

[Hal]

I've been messing around with them. They're a lot of fun to try. Here's an example:

START(
%BD8J8%PG3V2%WC8O1%XF7T4%YD6L4%ZC5M8%]C9D4%^D6I3%eC5b5

)END

Also "second ball draw" Here's an example:

START(
%A[5H6%B_1I9%PX2K7%U[8D4%V[8G5%W[1J4%XY1K1%Y]3J2%Z[9J0%]U1P3
%^^2J4%eB5b5
)END

 

[Joe T]

I've been messing around with them. They're a lot of fun to try. Here's an example:

START(
%BD8J8%PG3V2%WC8O1%XF7T4%YD6L4%ZC5M8%]C9D4%^D6I3%eC5b5

)END

Also "second ball draw" Here's an example:

START(
%A[5H6%B_1I9%PX2K7%U[8D4%V[8G5%W[1J4%XY1K1%Y]3J2%Z[9J0%]U1P3
%^^2J4%eB5b5
)END

While you're having fun Hal try this one.
START(
%AK6Z8%Pg6Q0%WM8Z8%Xf4Q6%YN2E1%ZL8Z7%[a8W5%\O2D0%eC4b3

)END
The 1 ball is frozen so you can't actually see that you're hitting rail first but if you do it right the cue ball will travel straight across and the inside won't take till it hits the second rail. At which time they'll be some surprised faces in the crowd.
I've done it in games in front of very experienced players and could tell that they didn't know what hittem.

 

[Hal]

While you're having fun Hal try this one.
START(
%AK6Z8%Pg6Q0%WM8Z8%Xf4Q6%YN2E1%ZL8Z7%[a8W5%\O2D0%eC4b3

)END
The 1 ball is frozen so you can't actually see that you're hitting rail first but if you do it right the cue ball will travel straight across and the inside won't take till it hits the second rail. At which time they'll be some surprised faces in the crowd.
I've done it in games in front of very experienced players and could tell that they didn't know what hittem.

I can make that all day. It's a favorite shot of mine. Cue ball really spins back at a wider angle than people expect.

 

[Snapshot9]

You come across ...

those type of shots quite often if you play
quite a bit.

I will tell you something else I practice that has
saved my butt quite a few times. Double kiss safeties.
Sometimes you get leaves where you don't have a shot,
and you want to play a safety, but there is not a good
option for a safety. A double kiss safety sometimes can
put the object ball where a single kiss wouldn't, and perhaps
hook your opponent. Different english on the cue ball will
make the object ball end up in different places, but it is
one of those shots that can really save your bacon.

 

[Hal]

With the object ball between the first and second diamonds and the cueball on the spot. My cueball actually hits the short rail second. Like this:

START(
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%eC3b6
)END

 

[Joe T]

With the object ball between the first and second diamonds and the cueball on the spot. My cueball actually hits the short rail second. Like this:

START(
%HK9Z8%Pg5O4%UC8[2%VJ2Z7%WM7[0%Xf5P0%YQ9D5%ZM1[0%]r3W9%^R7C9
%eC3b6
)END

Sweet, guess I had you a little under rated?

 

[Hal]

Sweet, guess I had you a little under rated?

I certainly wasn't trying to brag and I'm not even in your ball park as far as playability. I have to stroke it "real good" to get that kind of action with the cue ball. But I can always get it past the side pocket. I didn't mean to disrespect your shot at all.

 

[Joe T]

I certainly wasn't trying to brag and I'm not even in your ball park as far as playability. I have to stroke it "real good" to get that kind of action with the cue ball. But I can always get it past the side pocket. I didn't mean to disrespect your shot at all.

None takin at all. I was respecting your knowledge of the shot not the stroke.
What do you think happens or could happen to the cue ball if you happen to catch ball first? With a draw inside english stroke.

 

[DaveK]

I practice rail-first shots quite regularly. They are a lot of fun when struck with bottom or top for that matter ! The shallow ones come up all to often for me, as I'm quite good at nearly getting shape on a ball down the rail. Thankfully the shallow shots are easier than the layout originally posted, which for me is a moderate difficulty rail-first shot. It doesn't take much to end up with a really fine cut. The one posted first by Hal looks to be a bit less than 1/2 ball. If the 2 ball were out from the short rail another couple of inches the cut would become very fine. Note also that this shot comes up regularly as a safe leave from your opponent. A lot of players will try to just hit the safed ball, but in many instances you can both make the pot rail-first AND get position ... but only if you know these shots, and to do that you need to practice them. I'm gonna go now, I'm starting to sound like VAP (at least I write in sentances and paragraphs ).

Now I have a question, just not sure how to ask. Imagine three shots, a straight draw shot, a rail-first draw shot, and a second-ball draw shot. I seem to get the best action from the rail-first, even better than the straight draw. However the second-ball draw shot seems to lack the good action, which I compensate for by applying more bottom than might otherwise be needed. Am I all messed up in the head or have others experienced the same reactions ? BTW, the first part of that question was rhetorical folks, please.

Dave

 

[Hal]

None takin at all. I was respecting your knowledge of the shot not the stroke.
What do you think happens or could happen to the cue ball if you happen to catch ball first? With a draw inside english stroke.

I'm not sure. I get some crazy cueballs sometimes. It will almost draw straight back towards the spot or sometimes it will actually spin forwards into the right hand corner pocket. I have the shot on video. How do I upload it?

 

[Joe T]

I'm not sure. I get some crazy cueballs sometimes. It will almost draw straight back towards the spot or sometimes it will actually spin forwards into the right hand corner pocket. I have the shot on video. How do I upload it?

Upload it? You're asking the wrong guy, I pay my web guy.

As far as the shot goes, yeah you can get a few different results. 2 being what you said, if you hit more draw than spin, it'll come back toward you and with more spin than draw it can go forward.
What use to drive me nuts was that I knew I was spinning and drawing but I was getting a dead or flat cue ball. I initially thought it was my stroke or last second change of tip position but figured out later if you hit it pretty good ball first, the draw off the ball says come back, then the spin off the rail says go forward and it acts like a washout.

Not only can pool players get confused but so can the dam cue BALL.

 

[Hal]

Upload it? You're asking the wrong guy, I pay my web guy.

As far as the shot goes, yeah you can get a few different results. 2 being what you said, if you hit more draw than spin, it'll come back toward you and with more spin than draw it can go forward.
What use to drive me nuts was that I knew I was spinning and drawing but I was getting a dead or flat cue ball. I initially thought it was my stroke or last second change of tip position but figured out later if you hit it pretty good ball first, the draw off the ball says come back, then the spin off the rail says go forward and it acts like a washout.

Not only can pool players get confused but so can the dam cue BALL.

That's a very good description. I actually banked it cross corner one time. LOL. By the way, I just orderd your aiming system. It should be here today. I'm anxious to try it out.

 

[Joe T]

That's a very good description. I actually banked it cross corner one time. LOL. By the way, I just orderd your aiming system. It should be here today. I'm anxious to try it out.

I'm thinking about forming a small training group here on az for that workout, I just don't want to start something I can't finish. But if we do do it I was thinking about 5 or 10 people on a weekly training schedule comparing scores and notes and hopefully that would help keep us motivated and might speed up the learning process.

I haven't practiced or competed in the last 4 months (except Turning Stone and that was embarrassing) but the kids are going back to school next week, my products are packaged and I’m dieing to get back into stroke.

You might not get it tomorrow, I ran out of books and had to pick up a new batch Monday and they didn’t ship till wed. When you get it we’ll talk more about it.

www.aztrainingcenter.com

 

[Rod]

None takin at all. I was respecting your knowledge of the shot not the stroke.
What do you think happens or could happen to the cue ball if you happen to catch ball first? With a draw inside english stroke.

There won't be any spin on the c/b, most is killed from contacting the o/b before the rail. If there is enough draw though, it goes longer to the other long rail.

I love those type of shots. I set them up to go around the table from a different position. If the c/b doesn't hook to much before it gets to the side pocket, I get this. START(
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%Zg8[7%[i5[1%\s3T6%]r7S0%^Y0C3%eC3b6%_X6C7%`O8J1%aI6Z9
)END

If it hooks to much it goes in the side or sometimes long past the side.

Rod

 

[Joe T]

There won't be any spin on the c/b, most is killed from contacting the o/b before the rail. If there is enough draw though, it goes longer to the other long rail.

I don't think the contact with the ob kills the spin, I posted earlier I think it's the draw saying comeback, then the the spin grabbing the cushion last and saying go forward that negates both. Or are we saying the same thing differently?

I love those type of shots. I set them up to go around the table from a different position. If the c/b doesn't hook to much before it gets to the side pocket, I get this. START(
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%Zg8[7%[i5[1%\s3T6%]r7S0%^Y0C3%eC3b6%_X6C7%`O8J1%aI6Z9
)END

If it hooks to much it goes in the side or sometimes long past the side.

Rod

Holy batstrokes Rod.
I gotta go try this.

 

[Rod]

Holy batstrokes Rod.
I gotta go try this.

Joe, having newer tight cloth and good rails won't hurt anything either.

Rod

 

[Joe T]

Joe, having newer tight cloth and good rails won't hurt anything either.

Rod

I just tried it and the best I got was about a foot off the 3rd rail. I'll work on it!
Stroke shots have never been one of my strengths. I can't stand that Mike Massey draw shot that bounces off the side rail and comes back to scratch. Makes me want to quit everytime he does that.

 

[TannerPruess]

I just tried it and the best I got was about a foot off the 3rd rail. I'll work on it!
Stroke shots have never been one of my strengths. I can't stand that Mike Massey draw shot that bounces off the side rail and comes back to scratch. Makes me want to quit everytime he does that.

I just tried it aswell and got the same result

 

[Rod]

Like I said a table with decent speed can't hurt. Its a bear if not impossible on a slower table. When i get the best results, it doesn't feel like I did anything. In other words don't force the shot, let the cue glide through and let it happen. Of course that's not always so easy to do.

Rod

 

[Hal]

Christopher Adams posted the video for me. Here's the link. It's the one titled "Super Draw Shot"

http://tv.isg.si/site/?q=filebrowser/chrismichaeladams

The object ball is between the 1st and 2nd diamonds. The cue ball is on the spot with extreme bottom right english. If I had simonis cloth, I'm confident that I could go to the corner pocket as Rod showed in his shot. I have the crappy slow mali cloth.