Anyone using TOI?

From this I took away his hammer stroke, applied geometry to arrive at a cueing method, that applies the same amount of english, in the impact zone regardless of the length of the shot, cut angle or speed.
Yeah I’ve had a lot of success with TOI and I think it took my game to the next level, however, there are times where I’m just basically guessing on how far inside I need to go, and that spells inconsistency. That’s my only real gripe with it.
The geometry that ensures the same amount of english in the impact zone, regardless of shot length is based on symmetry.
The undercut line serves as the first reference.
The second line, converging with the first, from an eighth of a tip beside the cb center, extends and crosses the first line at its middle between the two balls.
The crossed lines will be offset by that same eighth of a tip offset in the impact area.
The new line cuts the ball more than the undercut line, correcting the ball path and allowing the throw defeating inside english to be used.
 
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I think CTE is very important to learn. Even if you don't use it as an aiming/playing system. It gives you a great grasp of how inside english works and how much it deflects the CB and throws the OB.
 
I think CTE is very important to learn. Even if you don't use it as an aiming/playing system. It gives you a great grasp of how inside english works and how much it deflects the CB and throws the OB.
I think you mean TOI.

I think it's best to simply learn what any amount/type of spin does and how to adjust to it. Use it when necessary, not as a habit or "playing system".

pj
chgo
 
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Yes. Ha! I meant TOI.
Aiming with deflection to make a ball instead of just measuring it helped me dial it in better.
Did you learn TOI directly from CJ in personal instruction or from his Videos?
He can certainly make it work to perfection under a variety of table conditions. And for sizeable stakes too.
 
Yes. Ha! I meant TOI.
Aiming with deflection to make a ball instead of just measuring it helped me dial it in better.
I'm sure that's true for that one small size of tip offset - but I don't want to have a "favorite" tip offset that will tend to be chosen for that reason rather than because it's the best one for the shot at hand. Maybe that's just me...

pj
chgo
 
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Did you learn TOI directly from CJ in personal instruction or from his Videos?
He can certainly make it work to perfection under a variety of table conditions. And for sizeable stakes too.
I did not learn it directly from cj. I learned it from videos.
 
So when CJ racks for players who don't use TOI he should abandon it and use their methods, right?

You'd be CJ's rack boy too - and you use TOI? What to do...?

pj
chgo
I have racked a few games for him. :)

When he uses a system that works, I don’t see why he would need to use your system.
 
I'm sure that's true for that one small size of tip offset - but I don't want to have a "favorite" tip offset that will tend to be chosen for that reason rather than because it's the best one for the shot at hand. Maybe that's just me...

pj
chgo
No. That's not correct. It helps you visualize deflection for all tip offsets and all english.
 
You make the shot aiming COB to CCB and then use deflection from inside english to make the ball. So in order to make the ball you have to visualize how much deflection you'll get from different tip offsets and choose the right amount of offset to generate the deflection you want. You also have to think about throw since inside will throw the object ball a little thicker.

If nothing else it's a great drill to visualize deflection due to inside english.

As far as the reverse being true...yes, visualizing the complex relationship between throw, deflection and swerve is extremely important to playing good pool. That's why most people practice shooting with outside english and outside-low for hours and hours.

This is a good drill that helps people master inside english in the same way.
 
...you have to visualize how much deflection you'll get from different tip offsets and choose the right amount of offset to generate the deflection you want.
Are we talking about TOI? Does TOI use different tip offsets? What range - from "a touch" to...?

pj
chgo
 
Are we talking about TOI? Does TOI use different tip offsets? What range - from "a touch" to...?

pj
chgo
Do you know the system Patrick? I’m not sure I do and I don’t want to go into it in too much detail because I don’t want to give away CJs work.
From what I found it’s NOT just using a little inside for everything and relying on that familiar vision and ball behavior to improve your game. There is quite a bit more to it.
 
Do you know the system Patrick? I’m not sure I do and I don’t want to go into it in too much detail because I don’t want to give away CJs work.
From what I found it’s NOT just using a little inside for everything and relying on that familiar vision and ball behavior to improve your game. There is quite a bit more to it.
I know what CJ and others have posted about it here - and it was always a specific, very small amount (a "touch") of tip offset.

pj
chgo
 
Hi,

I think CJ’s TOI system is often conflated with his “Ultimate Aiming System”, which is covered in his instructional videos, but doesn’t seem to be discussed much online. It took me a long time to unpack his stuff, but its arguably a form of CTE also. My take is that his aiming approach is basically a varient of basic 1/8th ball fractional aiming, implemented in a sort of parallel aiming manner, around center CB, like Joe Tucker’s stuff and similar. He indexes to the 1/8th positions (slices), using fractions of tips, always referenced to inside of center CB. The quite unique thing about his approach is that he’s always aligning to only 1 of 2 reference points on the OB; center or edge. Coupled of course with strong fundies, this results in extreme simplification of shot lines, and enables a consistent visual and physical alignment to the balls. The physics of this approach are that the cue tip edge will always be slightly to the inside of the center CB, effectively chipping balls into the pro side of the pocket and the CB takes a very flat/natural path (no side spin), post OB collision. Reducing the visual/mental complexity of the game and boosting consistency are obviously huge things.

Personally, I’ve worked with all variants of CTE (thru pro1, haven’t bothered with latest Center Pocket Music stuff, anything that needs 450 pages to explain is not very widely helpful in my opinion, and the author & sycophants seem pretty unaware of much visual/cognition science that has been prevalent in sports/performance psychology for many years). Anyway, they all work, and quite well, if one fully delves in. CJ’s approach has definitely been the best result for me. One huge thing is that I can teach it easy to my daughter and friends. If one can teach something to kids pretty easily with good results, IMO thats a very good indicator.

Of course any of these approaches are simply tools to get us close & consistent in PSR. Final 1 mm or so of accuracy, personal/table variables when down on the shot, and CB control - will always require huge amount of feel & subjective calibration & personalization.

A few personal notes, on my journey thru aiming systems.

There is an extremely useful & simple (but not intuitive) mathematical relationship between 1/8th ball fractions (assuming 2.25” usa balls), avg cue tip size (12.5 mm) and table diamond system. This connects aiming, spin, and banking in ways that can’t be explained in simple text. And I’m not an instructor or author, and I think some of this stuff can only be gleaned through open minded and rather intense personal deep explorations into these systems dealing with both the right/left brain aspects of the game.

By creating angles on the CB to only 1 of 2 visual objective references on the OB, this brings shaft aiming aspects into the picture also, like SVB apparently uses. Tip fractions aligned to clear, simple objective visual references on both CB & OB, yields some very consistent ways to see, align to, and directly drop onto shot lines. A simple subset of CB/OB visual perceptions, can be built using CTC, CTE, and tip fractions on the CB. This approach can essentially eliminate all the confusion around fine tuning the final alignment & pivoting that most versions of CTE struggle to explain or teach.

I think one of CTE’s most useful components is the concept of primary & secondary visual reference lines (eg CTC, CTE, ETE, ETC) to align our bodies to the CB/OB relationship. These are really very simple derivatives of 1/4 ball fractions, and can be used with any system.

I think one of the biggest struggles with these systems for people new to the concepts is how to recognize the discreet alignment angles which are closest to the actual shotline. CTE guys have their views on this problem. But IMO, Poology is unparalleled, what a great little book of knowledge! However, I see Poology as an explaination of what the angles are and how they work; the mental process involved for using his system is IMO way too complex and ultimately unnecessary. I think the author actually agrees, and sees his approach as more of a “learning system”; eventually a shot library/database is built through experience and its all a non issue. But here again, CJ’s system of using 1 of 2 initial alignmemts (CTC or CTE) then tip fractions on the CB to index into the inside 1/8b fractions to only one of 2 ref points on OB - reduces angle recognition/selection to a super simple, intuitive process. In computer science this is a well known, simple algorithm called binary search.

We all evolve, one way or another (hopefully)? I call my own aiming system “Index CTE” (iCTE), which could roughly be described as 75% CJ’s stuff, 10% CTE Pro One, 10% SVB, 5% Poology.

Hoping for civil discussion not religious/political rants.

Cheers,

p
 
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I know what CJ and others have posted about it here - and it was always a specific, very small amount (a "touch") of tip offset.

pj
chgo
I could very easily have it wrong but the ‘touch’ is a subjective amount that increases the further you are away from the reference point (1/8) fractions as Phreaticus mentions. You have the same alignment for all shots in the same reference point but parallel shift to cause deflection to create the correct angle to pocket the ball.
 
I could very easily have it wrong but the ‘touch’ is a subjective amount that increases the further you are away from the reference point (1/8) fractions as Phreaticus mentions. You have the same alignment for all shots in the same reference point but parallel shift to cause deflection to create the correct angle to pocket the ball.
I agree, subjective calibration. An 1/8 ball slice, may be anywhere in 33-66% of a tip, depending on each person’s tip/eye/stroke... For me, using CJ’s TOI system, all 1/8b fractions are shot with my tip anywhere from 0.25-1.0 tips offset inside of center CB.

But the simple/rough math is 1/4 ball ~= 1 full tip (0.50”). 1/8 ball = 1/2 tip (0.25”). 1/16 ball = 1/4 tip (0.125”). Joe Tuckers parallel system is basically 1/20th ball fractions, and requires discreet alingment to about 10 points on both CB & OB... way over kill IMO, and super difficult/impossible to process and see during PSR. I think 1/8th ball fractions with CJ’s approach to CTC/CTE primary alignment drastically reduces complexity with just a few (but plenty enough) objective aiming references, with primary focus on the CB which we can always have a consistent relationship to - is a very strong system. I also think 1/8 ball refs are about max of whats practical & necessary for establishing visual/physical alignment during PSR. 1/16 ball (1/4 tip), is in the subjective “calibration zone”.

1/8 ball, 1/2 tip also directly corresponds to 1/2 a diamond of spin on short side of table. (1 tip = 1 full diamond, 1/4 tip = 1/4 diamond). Cut those values in half for the long rails. CJ’s in depth videos provide stroke drills to develop & calibrate this level of TOI. Much of it is connected to his approach to banking, which makes for a very well integrated system.

Of course its all moot if strong fundies aren’t in place.

Thats my take on these things. Of course I’m just some guy, and the best source of info is to spend tiny amounts of $$ and huge amounts of time to work through the instructional materials and interacting directly with the instructors.

Best,

p
 
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...the ‘touch’ is a subjective amount that increases the further you are away from the reference point (1/8) fractions as Phreaticus mentions. You have the same alignment for all shots in the same reference point but parallel shift to cause deflection to create the correct angle to pocket the ball.
Is perfectly offsetting contact-induced CB spin a main objective?

pj
chgo
 
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