APA Double Hit Madness

spoons said:
Actually, the two most knowledgeable players on their team agreed with me. Only one of them argued that I couldn't call the foul though. The other one approached me after the match and apologized for his teammate's behavior.
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I'm glad to hear that there were some players on the team that were decent about it. Unfortunately, this guy was in the wrong, and he does have the "shooters call" rule going for him. But that rule actually applies to all the leagues I have played.

I did send a request to APA to have a rule added to more clearly resolve this situation in the future. I know I will get a response, but we will see if I get any action on it. I can't tell you how many times I have been a part of or witnessed this same discussion, live and on these forums.
 
Like others have said, as the CB and OB were 2" apart, it wouldn't be a push, so it would have to be a double hit. But, unfortunately, you do have the issue of having to have someone watch it...

Your best course of action (not sure how much your league office cares) is to file a sportsmanship complaint. It won't help you at all, but it could keep that team from getting any sort of sportsmanship award (if your league does it). Here in the Charlotte APA, winning sportsmanship in your division does give you a chance in a drawing for entry to the "2nd chance" qualifies for our city tournament (plus some nifty bag tags and beer coozies, I love mine!).

Just don't dwell on it... There are some like that everywhere. Just this past Monday my wife played in her first APA match. She's a weak 3 in 8ball and was playing a 5. After the second game she was on the hill and in the third was able to pull of a great saftey while he was on the 8. He was frustrated and banged to try to get out of it and ended up knocking the 8 onto the floor. He then proceeded to pick up the 8 ball and spot it (thinking since it was her first match, she wouldn't know the rules). The team made them call the league office for a ruling as no one had the APA manual handy... Sufice to say, she won her first APA match...

Brian
 
soulcatcher said:
I did send a request to APA to have a rule added to more clearly resolve this situation in the future. I know I will get a response, but we will see if I get any action on it. I can't tell you how many times I have been a part of or witnessed this same discussion, live and on these forums.
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The problem with that is, with so many novice players, it's really tough for them to recognize and call it properly... Same thing goes with the Push rule and not calling it on yourself they treat it as a sportsmanship issue (as I posted a few seconds ago...).

Brian
 
still, to call a foul on someone when you really cant see it is also wrong. i believe a player should have to tell the opponent before he shoots one of those shots that it is going to be a foul if he hits it wrong. just like a frozen ball. you need to tell the player before he shoots the ball is frozen. and not argue about it afterwards.
by the same token if a player knows he fouled, be a man and take the penalty.
 
btoneill said:
The problem with that is, with so many novice players, it's really tough for them to recognize and call it properly... Same thing goes with the Push rule and not calling it on yourself they treat it as a sportsmanship issue (as I posted a few seconds ago...).

Brian
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I agree with the novices not knowing or understanding. When I sent the request I stated that they should try to put some clarification behind it so the average APA player could understand what it implied. The rule about not altering the cue ball's path seems to be the only rule in the book that applies to this, and it does nothing to discuss double hits.
 
In this context, neutral would be a person not a member of either team. Rarely is there an instance of a person being at a pool hall, that is not affiliated with such bar or a team in that bar. From my experience, the vast majority of people have the common decency to fairly call a hit they are requested to watch.

That's just how it is, welcome to the APA.

I enjoy it and even though these situations occur, they are few and far between.

spoons said:
There truly weren't any neutral parties in the bar. I wish there had been, but the only people in the place were players on the two teams.

But, this might actually be a trump card for the other team. If the two teams can't agree on the call, then the call goes to the shooter, right?
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maha said:
still, to call a foul on someone when you really cant see it is also wrong. i believe a player should have to tell the opponent before he shoots one of those shots that it is going to be a foul if he hits it wrong. just like a frozen ball. you need to tell the player before he shoots the ball is frozen. and not argue about it afterwards.
by the same token if a player knows he fouled, be a man and take the penalty.
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Maha,

I understand the sentiment, but it is so blatantly a foul that there is no doubt that it isn't. The other player either didn't know that or thought they were getting off on a technicality.

Either way, most leagues I've played in, this situation would have ended very badly.

As for telling him, I agree with you that one should tell their opponent that a certain type of shot is a foul if they suspect that they might not know the rules, but certainly they are under no obligation to warn them. Each player has an obligation to learn the rules of the league.

~rc
 
sixpack said:
Maha,

I understand the sentiment,.... Each player has an obligation to learn the rules of the league.

~rc
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This is a great point. I captain 3 teams. The first thing I do with every new player is send the rule book home with them. I tell them to read it and bring it back next week. That way all my players know what is in the book, and I should only have to step in with questionable calls. We have a few teams in our area that like to make up the rules, so I want my players as informed as possible.
 
Have had this happen and usualy I take the time to explain to them why it is a foul.I also make it clear that it is thier call not mine.Most times they listen and agree,sometimes even thank me for teaching them something.Of course sometimes it is pointless and I just pretend I did'nt see it...
 
smoooothstroke said:
Have had this happen and usualy I take the time to explain to them why it is a foul.I also make it clear that it is thier call not mine.Most times they listen and agree,sometimes even thank me for teaching them something.Of course sometimes it is pointless and I just pretend I did'nt see it...
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The APA manual says that only the player or the coach can officially call a foul. But if I'm understanding you correctly, since no neutral party was available to watch the shot, and theoretically both players and coaches from both sides disagree, and because in a disputed call, the shooter makes the call...it is ultimately the shooter's call, right?

The problem I tend to run into is that the second you try to talk to the shooter and explain that what they just did was a double hit, their whole drunk team starts shouting "there aren't push shots in APA....APA is slop." (which is a whole other set of misunderstood definitions that just get in the way).

Excuse the mini-rant....I know you folks all know this stuff already...

1) I didn't say "push shot," I said "double hit," they are different and I would be happy to explain why.
2) in fact the APA is probably the only league that ALLOWS push shots
3) slop doesn't mean anything goes. If we're going to start allowing people to hit the cue ball twice on every shot, I promise to never miss again. Heck, I'll even make sure that my cue never stops moving so that it's always in the motion of a single complete stroke.

[/rant]
 
This is the biggest thing that bothers me about APA. Mostly lower skill level players don't know the difference better a double hit and a clean hit when the balls are close together. Others just don't want to admit it.

Its funny I tried to demonstrate this to my brother inlaw last weekend (he doesn't play APA) and clearly showed a clean hit (shot at an angle or jacked up the cue stick) and a double hit (cue ball moves about the same speed as the object ball) and he still thought the double hit was fair since he couldn't see it. I explained when a ball hits another ball most of the energy is transferred which slows down the cue ball. If the balls travel at around the same speed it almost has to be a double hit.

I think the best thing to do it protect yourself. Anytime the balls are close together and you see your opponent lining it up straight ask to have a 3rd party to watch. Make damn sure you grab a SL6 or SL7. You dont want someone who is going to call a good hit if its bad. I have had people get mad at me for having someone watch a shot but you really have no choice against people who are uneducated on this subject.
 
The apa book is very vauge on the double hit.

I would hate to be in your situation since most of the teams that are around here ( i play on 3 teams and captain 1 of them) have at least one experienced player on the team that you can talk to before the player shoots the shot. but then again you said that some guys on their team agreed so if talked to before the shot maybe you could have come to an agreement and the situation would have been solved.

but all in all that being said your screwed. You cannot ever call a foul unless it is obvious as hell like them hitting your ball clearly first or scratching in the pocket. I any situation when it is going to be close you have to call someone else to the table.

if the cue and ob are closer than a chalk or so then always have someone watch the shot and have them call the double hit. if im called to watch a hit like that if it is that close and they are using a level stroke dead on then im going to call it. sometimes they hit it really hard and fast so you dont see it.
 
For all intents and purposes, this is probably an uncallable foul. Most league players don't understand the concept of the CB rebounding off the OB back to the tip for the double hit. You can argue until you are blue in the face and lose th arguement.

I have heard the "cube of chalk rule" one time and that was at a singles regional. It never comes up during league play, and when it does it's rarely worth the arguement and resulting stress.

I actually had a guy approach the table and thinking he had ball in hand and pick up the CB. I called a foul (being the team captain) and the resulting BS I got from the other team was amazing. They called it an "accidental touch" and stated it was legal. Their sl7 even told me that's how they did it in Vegas...:eek: The ensuing arguement and hard feelings wasn't worth it. If it were a playoff or other important match then it's worth the fight, but on a Tuesday night out when half the people there are there for the beer, it just isn't worth the shitstorm.

Bottom line: Pick your battles, when in doubt have a 3rd party observe the shot. If you don't, the shooter is always right.

:cool:
 
"accidental touch"? I dont remember them being that nice in vegas last year. they wouldnt let me mark the pocket with a money clip, said it was intimidating to other player???? ive never heard of that around the local area.
 
In APA, if the shooter feels that they didn't foul and there was no third/neutral party called in to watch the shot, the call is up to the shooter.

Now you can try to pursuade the shooter that they fouled and see if they'll agree with you, but you have to use judgement as how far you can force the issue without commiting a sportsmanship violation yourself.

It seems to me this was a foul based on ignorance rather than some evil plot. In league you have to roll with that stuff once in a while.

You can check with your LO, but I'm sure they'll say pretty much the same thing.

Politely stopping play and getting a third party is the only way to go.
 
I was playing in APA last night and found this ammusing after reading/posting in this thread yesterday afternoon. I was keeping score for my team and it was a match between two SL3's. I was quite impressed that the SL3 from the other team actually called me over to ask if I thought a shot he was going to attempt would double hit and if I thought it might if I could get someone to watch it. I told him the shot would be fine, but he ended up going to a different shot instead. I thanked him after the match for asking (especially after having read this thread)...

Just annoys me that a few idiots who try to get away with crap sours things for a lot of people when there are a lot of great honest players out there...
 
dereklovejoy said:
"accidental touch"? I dont remember them being that nice in vegas last year. they wouldnt let me mark the pocket with a money clip, said it was intimidating to other player???? ive never heard of that around the local area.
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Playing at a biker bar one night, one of our opponents pulled brass knuckles out of his back pocket and slapped it down on the table as a pocket marker. It wasn't an attempt to intimidate, it just happened to be the handiest thing for him to grab. Wonder how they would react to that at the nationals.
 
MBTaylor said:
In APA, if....

the cue ball and OB are less a chalk's width apart, a double cannot be called. If the separation is greater, then the double hit can be called.
Then again, if the person is dishonest, they can say a double hit never occurred. In that case the call goes to the shooter.

If someone was called upon to watch the hit and they declared it a good or bad hit then that ruling/call stands.
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WOW! Can I see that in writing.......thanks, randyg
 
The best I've been able to find with the piece of chalk is a statement from Ray in the "Ask Ray" section of the APA site:
How do you legally shoot a push shot without committing a foul? - Warwick, RI

If you are having trouble understanding the rules of push shots, ask someone to show you on the table. This rule is a judgment call a lot of time, like balls and strikes in baseball. Just try to shoot off the angle if the balls have less than a piece of chalk distances apart. If they are frozen you can shoot straight but make sure you shorten up the stroke. - Ray
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I think the logic in the statement on not being able to call a double hit is that it can be concidered a push shot if it's within a piece of chalk distance. And since a push shot is technically not a foul in APA it falls back on the shooter's side on the ruling. So basically you end up getting into the ref trying to determine if the shot is a push or a double hit, which is difficult for the best, so it's just assumed to be a legal "push"....
 
randyg said:
WOW! Can I see that in writing.......thanks, randyg
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Interesting. It is a local rule for the Baltimore APA and not a National Rule. I was under the impression that it was a national rule. Sorry about the misinformation. :sorry:

I just read the National Rules Book at: http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html

If you look at the Baltimore area local bylaws at http://apapool.com/Default.asp (click "documents & forms" then "MD APA Bylaws (pdf)" it says on page 75,

14. Double-Hitting the Cue Ball When the Object Ball is Not Close to a Rail - If, after initially making contact with the cue ball, you hit the cue again farther down the table (by using an extended follow-through) you have
committed a ball-in-hand foul. Exception: a double-hit foul can not occur on an opening break (since the game does not start until the rack is contacted). To save potential arguments, we have elected locally to waive the double-hit foul rule when the cue ball is frozen to, or ?less than? one chalk cube?s width from the object ball being played (and the balls are not close to a rail). The shooter will only be called for a double-hit foul when the balls are separated by more than a chalk cube?s width and they double-hit the shot (by using an extended followthrough). When taking the measurement you should never risk touching the ?live? cue ball. Simply measure the distance between the cue and object ball by placing a cube of chalk on the playing surface ?near? where the two balls rest. If the non-shooting team feels that the distance separating the cue and object ball is more than the width of a cube of chalk, it is their responsibility to ask for a referee to make the measurement before the shot is taken. If they elect not to have the distance measured by an official, no foul can be called.
 
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