APA Double Hit Rule

sgonzalez34

sgonzalez34

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I never thought I would ask for help on an APA Rule since I can look this up myself. However, tonight while playing in a local APA TriCups Tournament match, the opposing team's player had a shot where the cue ball was within millimeters of the object ball she was shooting next. I called over the referee to watch the shot since she would likely double hit if the cue was hit straight into the object. When the referee came over to watch the hit, he proceeded to explain to the shooting player that she would likely foul with a double hit unless she hit the cue ball to the right or left away from the from object ball. She proceeded to hit away so there was no foul. However, I was confused as to why he tipped her off or warned her of the likely double hit. When I asked the referee, he explained that he was obligated to inform her of the likely foul if she hit straight through.

I could not find anywhere in the APA rules that the referee must inform the player of a likely double hit when called to watch the hit. Can someone shed some light on the referee's responsibility in this case?

Thank you!
 
By the way, the shooting player or captain never asked for clarification on the rule.


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sgonzalez34 said:
I never thought I would ask for help on an APA Rule since I can look this up myself. However, tonight while playing in a local APA TriCups Tournament match, the opposing team's player had a shot where the cue ball was within millimeters of the object ball she was shooting next. I called over the referee to watch the shot since she would likely double hit if the cue was hit straight into the object. When the referee came over to watch the hit, he proceeded to explain to the shooting player that she would likely foul with a double hit unless she hit the cue ball to the right or left away from the from object ball. She proceeded to hit away so there was no foul. However, I was confused as to why he tipped her off or warned her of the likely double hit. When I asked the referee, he explained that he was obligated to inform her of the likely foul if she hit straight through.

I could not find anywhere in the APA rules that the referee must inform the player of a likely double hit when called to watch the hit. Can someone shed some light on the referee's responsibility in this case?

Thank you!
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No, it’s my understanding he should not have offered that explanation on his own. If the player asks in advance what would constitute a foul, that would be different.

Problem here is calling out a ref on the spot could result in a bigger issue for you than the outcome of that particular shot. I would address the issue with the ref after the completion of the match or session in private, where you are not publicly challenging their authority or the fact that they made a mistake.

Sounds like the ref or TD’s intentions were good in trying to inform the player in advance of likely committing a foul, but the bottom line is the correct call is for the player to learn the hard way - after the shot is played and the foul is called.
 
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sgonzalez34 said:
I never thought I would ask for help on an APA Rule since I can look this up myself. However, tonight while playing in a local APA TriCups Tournament match, the opposing team's player had a shot where the cue ball was within millimeters of the object ball she was shooting next. I called over the referee to watch the shot since she would likely double hit if the cue was hit straight into the object. When the referee came over to watch the hit, he proceeded to explain to the shooting player that she would likely foul with a double hit unless she hit the cue ball to the right or left away from the from object ball. She proceeded to hit away so there was no foul. However, I was confused as to why he tipped her off or warned her of the likely double hit. When I asked the referee, he explained that he was obligated to inform her of the likely foul if she hit straight through.

I could not find anywhere in the APA rules that the referee must inform the player of a likely double hit when called to watch the hit. Can someone shed some light on the referee's responsibility in this case?

Thank you!
Click to expand...
How’d she look?
 
What was the score when the ref request was made?
 
If she was a 2 or a 3, I probably wouldn't let it bother me. But the question Is, would the ref have done the same for you?

First, the ref isn't allowed to offer unsolicited advice. Second, she should have been charged a time out. That should have been considered a coach.
 
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MitchAlsup said:
League APA is for fun--not really for anything else.
Being a hard a$$ to the rules takes the fun aspect out of it;
especially to those just starting out.....
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So the answer to the OP, who seems to take pool seriously and think the rules mean something, is: quit APA. Seriously.

I can see telling the newbie in a weekly match, but in a serious tournament the ref should never say anything, even in APA.
 
Thanks to everyone who contributed answers to my question, not a serious matter, but it was the final match for $450. That is actually irrelevant, I was just very surprised at the referees explanation. I’m not quitting APA and I’ll keep future rules questions to myself. Thanks again.


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sgonzalez34 said:
not a serious matter, but it was the final match for $450. That is actually irrelevant,
Click to expand...
Not irrelevant. That elevated the seriousness of the match, and that means the ref should have had a heightened sense of responsibility, and coaching players is not serious refereeing. If the ref's coaching cost you money, it's a more serious mistake.
 
sgonzalez34 said:
I never thought I would ask for help on an APA Rule since I can look this up myself. However, tonight while playing in a local APA TriCups Tournament match, the opposing team's player had a shot where the cue ball was within millimeters of the object ball she was shooting next. I called over the referee to watch the shot since she would likely double hit if the cue was hit straight into the object. When the referee came over to watch the hit, he proceeded to explain to the shooting player that she would likely foul with a double hit unless she hit the cue ball to the right or left away from the from object ball. She proceeded to hit away so there was no foul. However, I was confused as to why he tipped her off or warned her of the likely double hit. When I asked the referee, he explained that he was obligated to inform her of the likely foul if she hit straight through.

I could not find anywhere in the APA rules that the referee must inform the player of a likely double hit when called to watch the hit. Can someone shed some light on the referee's responsibility in this case?

Thank you!
Click to expand...
For my own edification: Who was the ref? Player on a different team, player on one of your teams, LO, etc

Either way, the rule on judges is clear. Agreed upon third party who was the final call of the shot. No clarification on them offering advice, which means they probably shouldn't be doing that.

Not much recourse aside from a sportsmanship complaint with the LO
 
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MitchAlsup said:
League APA is for fun--not really for anything else.
Being a hard a$$ to the rules takes the fun aspect out of it;
especially to those just starting out.....
Click to expand...
That’s nonsense.. Rules matter. APA already allows for your captain to warn you of fouls or call time outs. That’s enough for the amateurs.
 
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cookie man said:
It’s an APA thing. The refs ARE supposed to explain the rule to the shooter. They are even instructed to explain it in Vegas at the national tournament I don’t agree with it but that’s the way the APA operates
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But I believe that is only when the player asks for a rule explanation or clarification. This example does not seem to be the case.

When it comes to referee unsolicited advise, the only thing I can think of is when the ref tells the player, before the shot, that a ball is frozen to a rail or another ball. That is acceptable and proper... even in pro matches.
 
buckshotshoey said:
But I believe that is only when the player asks for a rule explanation or clarification. This example does not seem to be the case.

When it comes to referee unsolicited advise, the only thing I can think of is when the ref tells the player, before the shot, that a ball is frozen to a rail or another ball. That is acceptable and proper... even in pro matches.
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Not in my experiences. The ref has always explained the rule to the shooter in this instance
 
cookie man said:
It’s an APA thing. The refs ARE supposed to explain the rule to the shooter. They are even instructed to explain it in Vegas at the national tournament I don’t agree with it but that’s the way the APA operates
Click to expand...

You can explain the rule, but not tell the player how to play it to comply with the rules. So he can explain what a double hit is, hit the cueball twice with you stick, but not how to avoid it. That other part should have been done in practice or the player reading the rules and learning to play. The other team if they were worried about a double hit by that player should have called a time out and instructed them how to shoot to avoid it, that would be perfectly legal. This situation is no different than if the player was about to shoot a clear scratch and the ref said "you need to draw the cueball or you will scratch".
 
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