APA Double Hit Rule

[fastone371]

This thread brings up a question. If I’m asked by the captain of another team totally removed from my team’s match to watch for a bad hit in his match, do I need to first ask if he has informed his player what could constitute a double hit? Not all APA members know what constitutes a double hit. I’ve seen several arguments over a “double hit”. Should the team captain call a time out to explain the situation to the shooter before calling me over to watch the hit? Just curious.

When I played in BCA leagues you get to know everyone in the league. Sometimes someone might have their wife substitute in an emergency. You can kind of tell when they don't play a lot of pool. If it was my game and I saw that some ones wife was about to commit a foul I would say explain that I wanted to walk up to the table and watch for a good hit. I would then explain what a double hit was and how you could tell from the cue ball action that it was in fact a double hit and how to avoid double hitting the cue ball. Almost every time not only did the wife thank me for teaching her that but so did her husband. Its a good way to teach people stuff without making it look like you are telling them that they suck. Even if they did double hit the cue ball I wouldn't call a foul, I simply said that it could have been a bad hit if it was but that I wasn't positive so they maintained the table if they made a ball.

 

[fastone371]

That behavior started at the national level and filtered into local areas with referee programs. Oddly enough, it's those areas with referee programs that would be perfectly fine with referees calling it the way everyone here suggests. But believe it or not, there are entire franchise areas where a double hit foul has never even been heard of. We all know the reaction you get when you call a double hit foul on a player who has never heard of such a thing. The guilty party insists that they never hit the cue ball twice, to the point of becoming belligerent - insisting that they've been cheated. This is not a behavior APA wants in their national events - sometimes it's more important that the participants come away with a positive experience than it is that every situation be treated like it's a tournament for professional players. So when a referee is called to watch for a double hit, they are instructed to tell the shooter what they're watching for and how to avoid it. They're also instructed to inform the opposing team that this is what they're going to do. It gets covered in captain's meetings too, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Since the APA chooses referees for their national events from franchises that use referees locally and have referee programs, that practice has found its way into many of those programs as the operators see the benefits of doing so locally and of being consistent with the way it's done nationally. If your referee didn't tell you what they were going to do and it wasn't explained to everyone at a players' meeting before the event, it's understandable that you would be surprised.

Sometimes camaraderie wins out over cutthroat in the APA.

How is letting a player get away with a foul a positive experience? The person committing the foul may be happy if they won the match but the losing team would not be very happy if that foul costs them a match.

 

[hang-the-9]

It's an amateur league, I think the fact that they tell people to try not to foul is pretty reasonable

Our junior league teaches 10 yr olds how to avoid fouls instead of just looking like it, it does not take a high level player to have responsibility for fouling or not.

 

[Cuedup]

I'd mark this issue right you there with" you didn't mark the pocket".

 

[hang-the-9]

Texas Express implemented that rule which I default t. Never ran into anything sanctioned or private to the contrary at the peanuts level.

So you are saying even if it's a foul, if you look like you are trying not to foul it's not called? Only place I have seen that is the TAP league, and maybe some random places where they have players that don't know the rules. From my experience tournaments and leagues don't just go by "attempt" but by what actually happens during the shot. Even APA has double hit rules note they talk about how to avoid the double hit, not the fact that if you simply elevate or angle it then it's not a foul, you actually have to not foul.

 

[ideologist]

Our junior league teaches 10 yr olds how to avoid fouls instead of just looking like it, it does not take a high level player to have responsibility for fouling or not.

I understand that, but TAP and APA are aimed at getting bar players out for fun.

BCA is the likely path for your junior leagues?

 

[SJpilot]

So you are saying even if it's a foul, if you look like you are trying not to foul it's not called? .

I've been to a few tournaments where this was the case when balls are close. They said as long as you elevate you're good to go whether the cb follows it or not. Derby is that way if I recall.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[APA Operator]

How is letting a player get away with a foul a positive experience? The person committing the foul may be happy if they won the match but the losing team would not be very happy if that foul costs them a match.

Explaining how it's going to be called and then calling it that way is a positive experience. At least for most people.

 

[Jack Fate]

VNEA has a way Dr Dave doesn’t really approve of.
Although playing with people that have been drinking seems to simplify things at least. *

*At least from a ref standpoint

 

[hang-the-9]

I understand that, but TAP and APA are aimed at getting bar players out for fun.

BCA is the likely path for your junior leagues?

Going by how intense the playoffs get, and even weekly games in general, there is maybe 15% fun in playing league, and the rest is work LOL There are local teams that make the playoffs or the finals 4 out of 5 sessions, those teams are not out there for the fun of it, it's basically a business.

The junior league in my area is to make pool players, not league players

 

[SBC]

I never thought I would ask for help on an APA Rule since I can look this up myself. However, tonight while playing in a local APA TriCups Tournament match, the opposing team's player had a shot where the cue ball was within millimeters of the object ball she was shooting next. I called over the referee to watch the shot since she would likely double hit if the cue was hit straight into the object. When the referee came over to watch the hit, he proceeded to explain to the shooting player that she would likely foul with a double hit unless she hit the cue ball to the right or left away from the from object ball. She proceeded to hit away so there was no foul. However, I was confused as to why he tipped her off or warned her of the likely double hit. When I asked the referee, he explained that he was obligated to inform her of the likely foul if she hit straight through.

I could not find anywhere in the APA rules that the referee must inform the player of a likely double hit when called to watch the hit. Can someone shed some light on the referee's responsibility in this case?

Thank you!

Well it's APA so....

But in real pool with a real ref, no they won't tell you how to shoot a shot.

 

[Clusterbuster]

I was an APA referee in Vegas 18 months or so ago. They advised us at the referee meeting that when we were called on to judge a potential double hit in this situation that, prior to the shot, we were to explain to the shooter that they could reduce but not eliminate the possibility of a double hit by raising the butt of their cue to a 45-degree or greater angle. We were specifically advised to tell them that raising their cue to 45 degrees or more did not mean that they could not foul, only that it reduced the likelihood of fouling. Telling a player how to maximize their likelihood of not fouling gets perilously close to telling them how to play a shot but for whatever reason the APA seems to have taken the position that reducing the number of fouls across a tournament is worth it. I’m not defending it, just saying how they told us to handle the situation. It was one of the most common calls we were asked to make.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I was an APA referee in Vegas 18 months or so ago. They advised us at the referee meeting that when we were called on to judge a potential double hit in this situation that, prior to the shot, we were to explain to the shooter that they could reduce but not eliminate the possibility of a double hit by raising the butt of their cue to a 45-degree or greater angle. We were specifically advised to tell them that raising their cue to 45 degrees or more did not mean that they could not foul, only that it reduced the likelihood of fouling. Telling a player how to maximize their likelihood of not fouling gets perilously close to telling them how to play a shot but for whatever reason the APA seems to have taken the position that reducing the number of fouls across a tournament is worth it. I’m not defending it, just saying how they told us to handle the situation. It was one of the most common calls we were asked to make.

It’s not doing any favors to any of the players who don’t know the rules. The sooner they learn the rules, the better for everyone, and the best / quickest way to learn it is to have it called on you in a crucial match situation, regardless of whether the shooter agrees with the call or not.

For anyone who plays in a league or a tournament, it is their responsibility to know all the rules, and should not be up to the Tournament Director or referee to explain it to them, at least certainly not before the shot.

 

[Clusterbuster]

It’s not doing any favors to any of the players who don’t know the rules. The sooner they learn the rules, the better for everyone, and the best / quickest way to learn it is to have it called on you in a crucial match situation, regardless of whether the shooter agrees with the call or not.

For anyone who plays in a league or a tournament, it is their responsibility to know all the rules, and should not be up to the Tournament Director or referee to explain it to them, at least certainly not before the shot.

Agreed.

 

[APA Operator]

It’s not doing any favors to any of the players who don’t know the rules. The sooner they learn the rules, the better for everyone, and the best / quickest way to learn it is to have it called on you in a crucial match situation, regardless of whether the shooter agrees with the call or not.

For anyone who plays in a league or a tournament, it is their responsibility to know all the rules, and should not be up to the Tournament Director or referee to explain it to them, at least certainly not before the shot.

Technically, they will learn sooner if you explain it before you call it.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Technically, they will learn sooner if you explain it before you call it.

I understand, but they should have been shown it by their team captain, teammate or by someone before it comes up in a tournament/league match situation.

 

[Jack Fate]

never played APA but did do research into possibly playing in the league. ( to far away) I found from talking to APA players the way it works.
My thought was it seemed interesting and to me it could be a good learning experience. Vnea doesn’t allow coaching ( or at least they didn’t use to)
The fact a team can’t be stacked with all better players was interesting as I viewed this to be more of an apprentice / mentor relationship with the time outs for other team members to to help lower rated players with shots .
It’s with this in mind makes me think of why the APA refs are instructed to explain this type of shot.
More of educational league and I think that’s not a bad thing in that respect.

 

[Cuedup]

The generous perspective is that it's an amateur league and if someone hasn't taken the time to explain it to this obviously neophyte player it's about time someone with authority did so it won't happen again.

We should all probably be more generous.

That said,after explaining it and then letting them get away with the elevated cue double hit seems pretty counterproductive.

 

[SSP]

It’s an APA thing. The refs ARE supposed to explain the rule to the shooter. They are even instructed to explain it in Vegas at the national tournament I don’t agree with it but that’s the way the APA operates

Explain the rule yes but NOT give advice on how not to foul, that should be up to the team captain, teams work hard to play in Regional finals and in Vegas, the Refs need to be neutral

 

[Baby Huey]

The APA model is the opposite of the BCA model. APA is like "let's just have fun." It's not empirical like BCA. A lot more gets passed off from referees or supposed referees especially during Nationals. You just have to live with it. The skill level of the APA player is lower than the BCA. APA encourages low level skilled players to join their league. It's a better model overall. Just look at their participation and their national event. It's quite robust and you can win something that's not available in BCA IMO.