APA foul?

[hang-the-9]

Believe me, intent has a lot to do with it. I have not played APA for about a year but I had this conversation with our LO a few times. Read the rules, I believe they say "if an object ball is 'accidentally' moved", key word - accidentally - if it is intentional it is a foul.

I don't think many people that foul, actually intend to do it LOL

Walking up to the table, lining up on the ball then hitting is, is about as deliberate as you can get. The accidentally moved is there as an incidental contact when doing a legal shot, not as a catch all for any foul the person did not mean to do. You need some sort of basic control of yourself and the equipment at the table, it's not a bunch of kids whacking at balls for fun in a rec center where anything goes.

 

[MmmSharp]

I don't think many people that foul, actually intend to do it LOL

Walking up to the table, lining up on the ball then hitting is, is about as deliberate as you can get. The accidentally moved is there as an incidental contact when doing a legal shot, not as a catch all for any foul the person did not mean to do. You need some sort of basic control of yourself and the equipment at the table, it's not a bunch of kids whacking at balls for fun in a rec center where anything goes.

I have seen many people get angry and hit the wrong ball on purpose because they dont like the safety. They know they will foul anyway so the do it in a way to intimidate the opponent.

My buddy has a to short temper and will get angry at himself and just forfeit a game angrily if he is shooting poorly and misses a key shot. I tell him he is a baby and pack when he acts like that.

I am with chilli on this. Intent is important. A lot of poor sportsmanship in leagues. I am sure everyone has a story or 5 about some jackass at hall ruining the night for others. I will give everyone the benefit of the doubt until i hear the full story.

 

[hang-the-9]

I have seen many people get angry and hit the wrong ball on purpose because they dont like the safety. They know they will foul anyway so the do it in a way to intimidate the opponent.

My buddy has a to short temper and will get angry at himself and just forfeit a game angrily if he is shooting poorly and misses a key shot. I tell him he is a baby and pack when he acts like that.

I am with chilli on this. Intent is important. A lot of poor sportsmanship in leagues. I am sure everyone has a story or 5 about some jackass at hall ruining the night for others. I will give everyone the benefit of the doubt until i hear the full story.

There are deliberately played fouls for sure, that is not what I meant when I said people that foul don't intend to. They try to avoid the foul, if it happens or not is another thing. Yes intent is important but if you intend to foul or not should not be a factor in determining the penalty. There are normal fouls (oops I goofed) and deliberate fouls (I know I am fouling but shooting it anyway) and flagrant fouls (I am pissed and will smash the balls on the table). This situation was just a normal foul, according to real pool rules and logic. What the APA does with it, that is a different thing from those. I mean I still can't figure out why you can't push out in APA 9 ball.

No one wants to give up ball in hand, that is why you avoid fouling. When you kick at a ball but miss, you intended to hit it. Or if you double hit the cueball, that was not on purpose either. This is why there is teaching and practice, before an actual match, so they know what is a foul and how to avoid them.

If the other team wanted to forgive them the foul would be another call to make, if they want to forgive a new player making a mistake. I've done it in tournaments against players that did not know the rules, but I did not say "that was not a foul because you did not mean it". I tell them it was a foul but you can go again anyway. There are differences there.

 

[NathanDetroit]

Rules are still in the games. Our junior league teaches 8 yr olds the proper rules, and when kids go to tournaments the refs there enforce the rules. If kids can learn and use the rules there is no reason to simply forgive carelessness in the APA or any other organization.

In your junior league, how were they taught? My guess is there were mistakes made at the table which were part of the teaching.

How would a mistake like that in the OP be handled by your coaches?

 

[APA Operator]

I think the TD made the right call. There are some comments in this thread that confuse the issue. First, this is not about teaching someone the rules. I'm sure the player in question knew you're supposed to shoot the cue ball first, so references to people not knowing the rules are just another way to insult APA rules. Second, ball-in-hand is a penalty, and can be applied to both fouls and to sportsmanship violations. Calling them sportsmanship fouls only confuses things. The shot was clearly not a foul under APA rules. Fouls are listed in the Team Manual. The question then becomes, how do you resolve the situation? First, the TD must decide intent and penalize accordingly. If it is determined that the player was trying to get some advantage by changing the layout of the table, the TD can penalize with ball-in-hand or stronger. Loss of game is possible, as is loss of match, as is disqualification from the tournament, even suspension from the APA. That part is up to the TD's (and LO's) discretion. If it was an innocent brain fart with no malintent, then all balls moved are considered moved by accident, and the game resumes with no penalty after the table is reset. To reset the table, the opponent replaces the balls where they were (if possible) and the original player shoots again. If replacement is determined to be impossible, then you terminate the game. In 8-Ball you start it over and the original breaker breaks. In 9-Ball you mark the remaining balls dead and the shooter who struck the 8-Ball breaks (though it's not likely in 9-Ball that you can't replace two balls).

Those are the rules. You don't have to agree with them, just abide by them if you play by them. There are many folks here who don't like the discretionary part, and that's ok, but it does shorten the Team Manual and soften the consequences of an honest mistake.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I think the TD made the right call. There are some comments in this thread that confuse the issue. First, this is not about teaching someone the rules. I'm sure the player in question knew you're supposed to shoot the cue ball first, so references to people not knowing the rules are just another way to insult APA rules. Second, ball-in-hand is a penalty, and can be applied to both fouls and to sportsmanship violations. Calling them sportsmanship fouls only confuses things. The shot was clearly not a foul under APA rules. Fouls are listed in the Team Manual. The question then becomes, how do you resolve the situation? First, the TD must decide intent and penalize accordingly. If it is determined that the player was trying to get some advantage by changing the layout of the table, the TD can penalize with ball-in-hand or stronger. Loss of game is possible, as is loss of match, as is disqualification from the tournament, even suspension from the APA. That part is up to the TD's (and LO's) discretion. If it was an innocent brain fart with no malintent, then all balls moved are considered moved by accident, and the game resumes with no penalty after the table is reset. To reset the table, the opponent replaces the balls where they were (if possible) and the original player shoots again. If replacement is determined to be impossible, then you terminate the game. In 8-Ball you start it over and the original breaker breaks. In 9-Ball you mark the remaining balls dead and the shooter who struck the 8-Ball breaks (though it's not likely in 9-Ball that you can't replace two balls).

Those are the rules. You don't have to agree with them, just abide by them if you play by them. There are many folks here who don't like the discretionary part, and that's ok, but it does shorten the Team Manual and soften the consequences of an honest mistake.

If intent matters so dam much, let's actually play that way and assume I never intend to miss, so when I do I get to set up the shot again.

I don't dislike the apa, inherently, but garbage like this has an effect on non-apa events.

 

[rjb1168]

Some of the rules suck, like when breaking the breaker miscues and scratch's they get to try again.
They did not strike the rack so it's a do over. You must strike the rack and then scratch for the other
person to break.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I don't think many people that foul, actually intend to do it LOL

Walking up to the table, lining up on the ball then hitting is, is about as deliberate as you can get. The accidentally moved is there as an incidental contact when doing a legal shot, not as a catch all for any foul the person did not mean to do. You need some sort of basic control of yourself and the equipment at the table, it's not a bunch of kids whacking at balls for fun in a rec center where anything goes.

I 100% that most people don't try to foul and in the APA that if very true; however, I've been around the block enough to know the character of who I'm playing. Which is why I said something about not knowing the player so I couldn't make a judgement call.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Some of the rules suck, like when breaking the breaker miscues and scratch's they get to try again.
They did not strike the rack so it's a do over. You must strike the rack and then scratch for the other
person to break.

I agree with you on that one. APA's view is that it's not an actual game (and therefore no fouls can occur) until a legal break is made.

 

[justadub]

I'm glad APAOperator chimed in, because I don't know that I would have explained it as clearly....of course, being an LO, it makes sense that their explanation would be better than mine

 

[Chili Palmer]

Not a foul on APA. Even if done intentionally it still is not a foul.

However it is a sportsmanship violation, which depending on the circumstances can result in a warning, ball in hand for opponent, loss of game, or loss of match.

Sportsmanship foul - based on intent

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I'm glad APAOperator chimed in, because I don't know that I would have explained it as clearly....of course, being an LO, it makes sense that their explanation would be better than mine

Nobody is dumb enough to need it explained. I would like it defend.

Moving a ball on accidental contact is one thing. 'accidentally' shooting a ball should be a foul. Always.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Moving a ball on accidental contact is one thing. 'accidentally' shooting a ball should be a foul. Always.

Under the World Standardized Rules it comes under unsportsmanlike conduct. It is listed as intentionally moving a ball in play other than by a shot, and a shot is a forward motion of the tip into the cue ball. The penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is at the discretion of the ref/TD.

Under the WSR there is no explicit foul of cueing an object ball. It is not possible to list all such actions that are simply not part of how pool is played. There are too many of them.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Under the World Standardized Rules it comes under unsportsmanlike conduct. It is listed as intentionally moving a ball in play other than by a shot, and a shot is a forward motion of the tip into the cue ball. The penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is at the discretion of the ref/TD.

Under the WSR there is no explicit foul of cueing an object ball. It is not possible to list all such actions that are simply not part of how pool is played. There are too many of them.

Some rules used to state that moving a ball with the tip or ferrule was a foul. Pretty clear and good rule when not calling touch fouls.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Some rules used to state that moving a ball with the tip or ferrule was a foul. Pretty clear and good rule when not calling touch fouls.

Not sufficient. At one pocket, for example, there are lots of times when I would have been glad to take a foul by cueing an object ball if it was only a foul.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Not sufficient. At one pocket, for example, there are lots of times when I would have been glad to take a foul by cueing an object ball if it was only a foul.

I don't really know what your point is. Do you think that deliberately stroking an object ball should be a foul? That is what the guy did. He shot an object ball. He decided to stroke the cue.

This isn't one pocket. There are all kinds of special rules in one pocket.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Under the World Standardized Rules it comes under unsportsmanlike conduct. It is listed as intentionally moving a ball in play other than by a shot, and a shot is a forward motion of the tip into the cue ball. The penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is at the discretion of the ref/TD.

Under the WSR there is no explicit foul of cueing an object ball. It is not possible to list all such actions that are simply not part of how pool is played. There are too many of them.

Also, you are confusing 'foul' with 'penalty'. Fouls in certain situations already have different penalties.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't really know what your point is. ...

My point is that there is a difference between a normal foul and unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Some rules used to state that moving a ball with the tip or ferrule was a foul. Pretty clear and good rule when not calling touch fouls.

Every rule I have read states that moving the cue ball with your tip is a foul, no other balls are mentioned.

Again, this all goes down to intent, same with Bob's response about it being the TD's discretion - it's his/her job to determine intent. If the person was intentionally trying to do that then yes; foul, loss of game, loss of match, etc.

In the APA I seriously doubt 99% of the players have the wherewithal to do that intentionally, hell, half of them pick up the cue ball and hand it to their opponent if they're locked up in jail (killer safe).

Not sufficient. At one pocket, for example, there are lots of times when I would have been glad to take a foul by cueing an object ball if it was only a foul.

Funny side story: I don't have a lot of experience at 1P and I was playing a tournament once and was trying to just skim a ball in the pack to go end rail and to the back of the pack, I miscued, which he didn't hear, so the CB barely rolled right into the pack and locked him up bad, he was impressed and said "great time to take a foul". I didn't say a word

 

[justadub]

Nobody is dumb enough to need it explained. I would like it defend.

Moving a ball on accidental contact is one thing. 'accidentally' shooting a ball should be a foul. Always.

I don't know if you've ever played APA or not. It is a beginner league, or more accurately, a league that includes many beginners. Its also a casual league, for many who play.

I have seen someone line up to hit an object ball before, instead of the cue ball. We caught them before it happened. Genuine brain fart. They were suitably embarrassed when it was pointed out. But it was genuine. (That person wasn't brand new, either.)

Stuff happens in a casual league. Peoples thoughts wander, they could get distracted, they could be having some personal stuff going on...any of a thousand things. APA isn't a league for only serious players, tho there are many who take it (too) seriously.

Then, to APA Operators point, someone who you believe is intentionally hitting an object ball, on purpose, well that's a whole different thing. And sadly you can find people who will go to any length to get an advantage, or to take advantage of a rule.

And to "defend"...the rule in APA is cue ball fouls only. So if you hit an object ball as in the original discussion, by definition you haven't hit the cue ball, so no foul has occurred. As others have pointed out, it could be construed as a "Sportsmanship Foul", but that's a gray area and truly needs a league official present to actually enforce it.