APA handicap question...

[HumptyDumpty]

Thanks Tammie,

I'm going to inform both operators. It's interesting however, that I was told I had to pay my yearly fee twice because it was different regions.

Your membership fee is payable once per year ($20) regardless of how many areas you play in. You may want to get with your operators and determine which one you paid in first. It may be just a matter of overlapping time, i.e. you played on Monday in one area and paid there and on Thursday in another area and you may not have showed up on the system yet as being paid so the other operator allowed you to play again.

Hope this helps!

Tammie Jones
APA League Operator

 

[HumptyDumpty]

Thanks that does help.
The particular situation is that I went up in one region, but have not in the other.
One of my captains checked with the LO and this is what he said (paraphrased of course).

My handicap is right on the cusp between 5 and 6. His region borders another state and he says he has many people in this category. The 2 handicaps are valid within the 2 regions because due to the nature of the score keeping and human beings that happens. Playing within a particular region having a different handicap is acceptable. However, if both teams should happen to go to Vegas (an unlikely event admittedly), then I must use the higher of my 2 handicaps out there for both teams.

Does that jive with your understanding?

There is a time frame in which your skill level may be different. If you play in each area weekly or even bi-weekly it is a possiblity. It takes time to assemble all of the info from each area, put it thru the main database and get it back out. Each league operator can be on a different reporting schedule, but regardless, it should be done within a reasonable amount of time. Once you get more than 20 scores under your belt your skill level should remain reasonably consistent in both areas.

Hope this helps.

Tammie Jones
APA League Operator

 

[DoomCue]

On an additional note, I'd like to see the BCA and VNEA (with cooperation from the APA) create systems to take players away from the APA as the players get better. This would benefit the APA, BCA, VNEA, and pool in general. The same could be done to take players from the BCA and VNEA to the pro levels.

Creating ways to go to the next level is good, especially with the insane policies and rules of a lower-level league holds back improving, HONEST players.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

The APA has taken steps to create a "higher-level" league. It's called the Masters League. Masters League teams consist of a maximum of 4 players. Three players from each team play during a match. The format is the same as the US Amateur - race to 7, combination of five 8 ball games (max) and eight 9 ball games (max). The great thing is THERE ARE NO HANDICAPS.

Each game won counts as a point. Let's say we have players A, B, and C from a team named LETTERS playing 1, 2, and 3 from a team named NUMBERS. A beats 1 7-3. B beats 2 7-5. C loses to 3 4-7. Total up the games for each side, and LETTERS beat NUMBERS 18-15. No innings, no defensive point arguments, no counting balls, just games won. At the end of the session, all points from all weeks are tallied, and whichever team has the most points wins the regular season. From there, seedings for in-house or city tournaments can be done (I guess it depends on your LO).

I don't play regular APA anymore, mostly because nobody wants a 7 in 8 ball or a 9 in 9 ball, but partly because I hate giving up weight. I don't like being punished for knowing how to play. When I heard about the Masters League startup (our area was the first in the country), I thought it would be worth a shot. My team is now starting our 3rd session, and we all thoroughly enjoy it. The competition is good, there's no fretting over scoring, and oh yeah, did I mention there are no handicaps.... Plus, since there are relatively few Masters teams compared to regular APA teams, the odds are better for winning a trip to Vegas (although the payouts are much less, too).

I don't think Masters Leagues are in all regions, but if your area is anything like the Triangle in NC (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), convince your LO to start one. I think the Masters Leagues here have grown from 8 teams the first session to well over 50 now. I've never been a fan of leagues in general, or the APA specifically, but I really do enjoy the Masters League format.

-djb

 

[chefjeff]

I will reply in general to your remarks, Jeff. This is because I will not debate on this forum or argue with anyone. (snip)

lol

You said:

"First of all, regarding publishing the handicap system. This is a patented system and is protected by law. Much like companies, when they create a product, patent their product so that no one can copy or manipulate it. Coke, for instance, would never release the full "recipe" for their product to the public. They must release certain aspects that relate to what is in the product but they are not required to tell you EXACTLY how it is made. Same is true of Burger Kings "secret sauce" (or is that McDonald's)?? The same is true with this system. It is protected. This is a system that is applied universally across the league and every league that participates plays by the same sytem."

Your analogy is flawed...I don't go to Burger King to cook their food, I go to eat it. Now, if they wouldn't tell me how to order it (because of a unpublished, patented ordering system), then your analogy would fit.

See the difference?

I go to pool league, and because I am honest, I want to play BY THE RULES....but wait!!!, the rules are proprietary (can one patent words?), so I can't know them. So what happens next?...APA chastises HONEST people like me for not following the UNPUBLISHED rules!---rules I could NEVER follow, because I could NEVER know them! This is insane and unjust.

Tell me this, as a league operator: Why doesn't the APA realize this systemic problem and fix it? Why do they intentionally put their most valuable asset (their players) into this Catch 22 situation?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Skess]

Tammie,

First off, I'm not here to bash or argue either. You seem very willing to share info and I have a question that I've never been able to get an answer too. Maybe you can help.

The situation is this: A new player comes into the league that is obviously 7+ speed, but with the help of his team and the indifference of the others, he manages to play 2-3 sessions as a 3. The LO is unfamiliar with this player and his actual ability and never gets to see this player play. Come tournament time, this player unloads (shooting7+ speed including multiple B&R's). The LO attempts to DQ the player, but Corporate argues back that the scoresheets show him as a 3. Corporate only allows the LO to raise him to a 4.

What do you do in this situation? If the player/team has been bagging, obviously the scoresheets will show he's a 3. When do they allow you as a LO to use local knowledge or what you've personally witnessed in a tournament to adjust players properly?

Thanks

 

[chefjeff]

The APA has taken steps to create a "higher-level" league. It's called the Masters League. Masters League teams consist of a maximum of 4 players. Three players from each team play during a match. The format is the same as the US Amateur - race to 7, combination of five 8 ball games (max) and eight 9 ball games (max). The great thing is THERE ARE NO HANDICAPS.

Each game won counts as a point. Let's say we have players A, B, and C from a team named LETTERS playing 1, 2, and 3 from a team named NUMBERS. A beats 1 7-3. B beats 2 7-5. C loses to 3 4-7. Total up the games for each side, and LETTERS beat NUMBERS 18-15. No innings, no defensive point arguments, no counting balls, just games won. At the end of the session, all points from all weeks are tallied, and whichever team has the most points wins the regular season. From there, seedings for in-house or city tournaments can be done (I guess it depends on your LO).

I don't play regular APA anymore, mostly because nobody wants a 7 in 8 ball or a 9 in 9 ball, but partly because I hate giving up weight. I don't like being punished for knowing how to play. When I heard about the Masters League startup (our area was the first in the country), I thought it would be worth a shot. My team is now starting our 3rd session, and we all thoroughly enjoy it. The competition is good, there's no fretting over scoring, and oh yeah, did I mention there are no handicaps.... Plus, since there are relatively few Masters teams compared to regular APA teams, the odds are better for winning a trip to Vegas (although the payouts are much less, too).

I don't think Masters Leagues are in all regions, but if your area is anything like the Triangle in NC (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), convince your LO to start one. I think the Masters Leagues here have grown from 8 teams the first session to well over 50 now. I've never been a fan of leagues in general, or the APA specifically, but I really do enjoy the Masters League format.

-djb

DoomCue, thanks for the update. The APA Masters league sounds like a much more just system. Glad to hear they're doing this and may it succeed beyond their wildest dreams. Play well.

I don't play APA anymore, so I won't be telling the LO anything. I play BCA and VNEA where sandbagging is nearly impossible and yields little gain, if any.

Jeff Livingston

 

[DoomCue]

lol

You said:

"First of all, regarding publishing the handicap system. This is a patented system and is protected by law. Much like companies, when they create a product, patent their product so that no one can copy or manipulate it. Coke, for instance, would never release the full "recipe" for their product to the public. They must release certain aspects that relate to what is in the product but they are not required to tell you EXACTLY how it is made. Same is true of Burger Kings "secret sauce" (or is that McDonald's)?? The same is true with this system. It is protected. This is a system that is applied universally across the league and every league that participates plays by the same sytem."

Your analogy is flawed...I don't go to Burger King to cook their food, I go to eat it. Now, if they wouldn't tell me how to order it (because of a unpublished, patented ordering system), then your analogy would fit.

See the difference?

I go to pool league, and because I am honest, I want to play BY THE RULES....but wait!!!, the rules are proprietary (can one patent words?), so I can't know them. So what happens next?...APA chastises HONEST people like me for not following the UNPUBLISHED rules!---rules I could NEVER follow, because I could NEVER know them! This is insane and unjust.

Tell me this, as a league operator: Why doesn't the APA realize this systemic problem and fix it? Why do they intentionally put their most valuable asset (their players) into this Catch 22 situation?

Jeff Livingston

I'm not sure I follow your argument. If an ordering system is patented (and they normally are) and you can order the food, you'd want the company who patented the ordering system to open it up to you, simply because you feel you should know how it works? What does it matter, as long as you can order the food? In other words, why is it important to know how handicaps are calculated, if you're honest and you're just playing pool? Are you playing pool or are you playing handicap manipulation? If you're going to Burger King to eat, not to cook, then you should be playing APA to play pool, not to play the handicap game.

The handicap system has absolutely nothing to do with sandbaggers. There will ALWAYS be people looking for a way to win, no matter what the cost to integrity and sportsmanship (see Earl, Skins Game). That's the systemic problem - human nature, not a handicap system.

-djb

 

[fxskater]

I guess what I'm saying is what the APA Office must say a lot. The system works, if you just let it. Trust this system and know that if players play their hardest every week, if teams keep score correctly, if league operators input things accurately and maintain good management of their league and then if players who play more intensely at Higher Level Tournaments than they do at local league play certify to their best skill level then this system does work. If any part of that breaks down then it is up to the other remaining parts to catch it. It is tried and true and does work when allowed to. If it didn't work, it wouldn't have 250,000 members. Work with it, not against it and I will be willing to bet that You, too, will have success!

Good Luck and Good Shooting!

Tammie Jones
APA League Operator

I am not trying to start an argument here either. But the way i look at it, anything that relies on Human Honesty is majorly flawed. If there is a way to Sandbag, people will. The league i play in has 0 sandbaggers as our handicap system doesnt actually handicap anything while your playing. I play every player even, and then at the end of each round, they are given additional points based on thier handicaps. We are the highest rated team and we have had to spot 11 points before, which means that its possible to win 4 out of 5 games and lose the round if we didn't play each game good enough. I like this system and it works very well. If you play bad, your team loses, every ball counts. You can't let your opponent sink anything, and you have to sink everything. I don't think i am being NIEVE either. WE DONT HAVE SANDBAGGING issues AT ALL.

 

[chefjeff]

I'm not sure I follow your argument. If an ordering system is patented (and they normally are) and you can order the food, you'd want the company who patented the ordering system to open it up to you, simply because you feel you should know how it works? What does it matter, as long as you can order the food? In other words, why is it important to know how handicaps are calculated, if you're honest and you're just playing pool? Are you playing pool or are you playing handicap manipulation? If you're going to Burger King to eat, not to cook, then you should be playing APA to play pool, not to play the handicap game.

The handicap system has absolutely nothing to do with sandbaggers. There will ALWAYS be people looking for a way to win, no matter what the cost to integrity and sportsmanship (see Earl, Skins Game). That's the systemic problem - human nature, not a handicap system.

-djb

Doomcue, thanks for your response...you make a more detailed analogy.

I agree that human dishonesty is a big problem, but not a systemic problem, as human action is always chosen by the individual. Yes, the system has an influence, but only each individual, one at a time, decides to act or not. This is why, for example, socialism always fails.

If I used an ordering system, and there is a problem with my order, I need to why and how to fix it. I won't tolerate the clerk saying something like, "Shut up and eat, our system works." Pool example based on whitewolf's post: A team gets to Vegas and THEN is told they can't play...Why not? "We can't tell you...trust us that you didn't waste all that time and money and vacation, etc."


fxskater said about his league:

"WE DONT HAVE SANDBAGGING issues AT ALL."


Think about why this is not a problem with his league. He has the same honest/dishonest ratio of people, I assume. Yet, no sandbagging problem...hmmm. Why is this?

My point is to not bash APA, even though it probably sounds like that...it is to help the game. Pool needs improvements everywhere, all the time, and this problem is very evident in APA, as this discussion shows (again). So, why not do what the other leagues have done, ie, strike the root vs. hacking at the branches, (with apoligies to Thoreau) and strike the thing that starts all of these concerns of players? I'm really trying to help the game, as always. If I'm stepping on toes, sorry, but sometimes it happens when change is considered.

It's time for this change, imho.

Why not take the good and make it better?...for the game.

Thank you for your consideration of this important issue, and for all the hard work you captains and LO's do (and all the guff you take, too).

Sincerely,

Jeff Livingston

 

[Moose's Mom]

Thanks for your closing remark, Jeff. Most people don't understand how difficult it is to run a league. It is very hard work, and despite popular opinion, you don't make millions off it either. There will always be politics & drama, and its impossible to please everyone, no matter what league you're involved with. Handicapped leagues don't work for everyone, which is why I think its great that there are so many different choices available for players of all levels. Pool is a great game & I just like to see people from all walks of life getting invloved & playing. You'd be surprised how many people still associate pool with smoke filled rooms & thumb-breaking.
If someone wants to view player stats, we have a website that shows player rankings in their division, skill levels, matches played & matches won. This information can be usefull & doesn't give away any personal information that everyone shouldn't have anyway. Making the APA Franchise Management System open to everyone who wants it just isn't possible or safe. As far as the APA Equalizer system, there are many different factors the program considers when ranking players. The problem I see with making this information available to everyone is that the few people that are just in to make a quick dishonest buck would be able to manipulate the system as they see fit. Why anyone would waste their time with this in a trophy league is beyond my comprehension. Granted, there are pretty big payouts at Nationals, but as soon as they see that someone's been sandbagging to get there, they'll boot their cheating ass out. I've seen it happen. It's a great feeling when you're fortunate enough to have worked hard & made it to Nationals. The APA rewards their players by trying to ensure that the cheaters don't steal your honest hard-earned opportunity. At the local level, you can always talk to your league operator if you have issues. I'm sure they'd prefer it if the people they send to Nationals to represent them were on the up-and-up.
Thanks for letting me ramble

 

[Jack Flanagan]

When is a seven not a seven ?...When it is an APA ranking...been there, done that !!
My friend was severely trounced by a "7" (two break and runs/8-ball) at the state level. An official saw game three (only) when my friend ran 5 straight balls and won the 3rd game,,,the other guy's captain complained about the five ball run and my friend was immediately bumped from 6 to 7, consequently my friend did not win another game,,,TOO MUCH arbitrary authority with officials !!!...from that point in time, I vowed not to ever play APA anything, again.............

 

[Koop]

When is a seven not a seven ?...When it is an APA ranking...been there, done that !!
My friend was severely trounced by a "7" (two break and runs/8-ball) at the state level. An official saw game three (only) when my friend ran 5 straight balls and won the 3rd game,,,the other guy's captain complained about the five ball run and my friend was immediately bumped from 6 to 7, consequently my friend did not win another game,,,TOO MUCH arbitrary authority with officials !!!...from that point in time, I vowed not to ever play APA anything, again.............

That is ludicrous. A legitimate 6 should be able to run 5 balls in his/her sleep. For someone to complain about a 6 running five balls once in a set is assinine at best. Even more assinine is bumping him/her to a 7 based on one 5 ball run. Christ, we have sixes including myself who can break and run more than once per set and are still 6's and none of the mentioned players would ever be considered sandbaggers. That sucks out loud...

Dave

 

[pbat2751]

That is ludicrous. A legitimate 6 should be able to run 5 balls in his/her sleep. For someone to complain about a 6 running five balls once in a set is assinine at best. Even more assinine is bumping him/her to a 7 based on one 5 ball run. Christ, we have sixes including myself who can break and run more than once per set and are still 6's and none of the mentioned players would ever be considered sandbaggers. That sucks out loud...

Dave

Agreed... Hell I've seen some 4's run a rack now and again, when playing well. A six should be able to run a rack.

 

[YoungPoolPlayer]

APA age limit?

How old do you have to be to play in APA.

 

[Koop]

How old do you have to be to play in APA.

I believe 21 because most teams play out of bars.

Dave

 

[RON GEARY]

Apa 2

In my APA league two weeks ago I was forced to play a 2. Now I am a *cough cough* four....and have been a four for a long time. My win percentage is up there, probably 70+. We were ahead in the match for the night 2 games to none. This female team captain dumps her two and my captain asks me to play him, I am like..."Sure...a 2...no problem". He had been sandbagging all season, some several weeks now and worked his way back down to a 2. He was from Virginia and I had never seen him before til this season. Guy nearly runs the first rack on me, I didn't sink a ball on the break. He wins that game. Next game he misses after the break and I run 7 and the 8. Then I break again, make a ball, then miss...he runs almost another rack and I get a bad table roll and leave him an easy two ball out. He shoots left handed...draws the ball...and banks the 8 out. Now I am willing to bet he played in the Virginia league somewhere because he had on a T-shirt from a tourney up there that said something about a 9 ball league...so this guy was NO 2 AT ALL. I was spanked and we were done, all in less than 10 innings I bet.

And they wonder why the APA sucks so bad eh?

Amateurs Pushing Amateurs...definately APA.

Shorty

WELL SHORTY, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT IN LOUISVILLE AN APA 2 WOULD HAVE TO BE A WOMAN OR A MAN THAT IS LEGALLY BLIND , TOTAL BEGINNER ,1 BALL AT A TIME MAX,COULDNT SPELL POOL , & played their 1st game at 40 yrs old. whats with your director ?