APA handicap question...

[catscradle]

Playing in 2 regions it is possible to have 2 different handicaps in the two regions, especially for somebody who hovers between 2 handicap brackets. What are the APA rules about this?
Is this allowed?
Is it the player's (or his team's) responsibility to cross-notify both regions?
What happens if you go to Vegas, particular if it's from the region where you have the lower handicap?
Is either teams eligibility in jeopardy?
Is the player's eligibility in jeopardy?

Why the hell in this age of computer connectivity isn't there a central database recording all scores and generating one handicap?

 

[DoomCue]

Playing in 2 regions it is possible to have 2 different handicaps in the two regions, especially for somebody who hovers between 2 handicap brackets. What are the APA rules about this?
Is this allowed?
Is it the player's (or his team's) responsibility to cross-notify both regions?
What happens if you go to Vegas, particular if it's from the region where you have the lower handicap?
Is either teams eligibility in jeopardy?
Is the player's eligibility in jeopardy?

Why the hell in this age of computer connectivity isn't there a central database recording all scores and generating one handicap?

Why in the hell would somebody play in two different regions?

-djb

 

[Razor_Blade]

Last year I moved from Florida back to Louisiana. In Florida I was a SL6 with a winning average above eighty percent. When I joined a new team in Louisiana, I reported that I was a SL6. I lost my first match, and was dropped to a SL5. I had a bad session, due mostly to not getting to play much and adjusting to playing on different equipment. I`m getting back up to speed now, and get to hear gripes about my handicap every week. I agree, they should have a national database.

 

[catscradle]

Why in the hell would somebody play in two different regions?

-djb

Maybe because in this damn economy they're forced to work away from home weekdays and want to play during the week because they've time to burn since their family is nowhere in sight, yet want to remain in contact with their friends at home where they return every weekend. Is that a good enough reason for you?

 

[Shorty]

Check this crap out...

In my APA league two weeks ago I was forced to play a 2. Now I am a *cough cough* four....and have been a four for a long time. My win percentage is up there, probably 70+. We were ahead in the match for the night 2 games to none. This female team captain dumps her two and my captain asks me to play him, I am like..."Sure...a 2...no problem". He had been sandbagging all season, some several weeks now and worked his way back down to a 2. He was from Virginia and I had never seen him before til this season. Guy nearly runs the first rack on me, I didn't sink a ball on the break. He wins that game. Next game he misses after the break and I run 7 and the 8. Then I break again, make a ball, then miss...he runs almost another rack and I get a bad table roll and leave him an easy two ball out. He shoots left handed...draws the ball...and banks the 8 out. Now I am willing to bet he played in the Virginia league somewhere because he had on a T-shirt from a tourney up there that said something about a 9 ball league...so this guy was NO 2 AT ALL. I was spanked and we were done, all in less than 10 innings I bet.

And they wonder why the APA sucks so bad eh?

Amateurs Pushing Amateurs...definately APA.

Shorty

 

[DoomCue]

Maybe because in this damn economy they're forced to work away from home weekdays and want to play during the week because they've time to burn since their family is nowhere in sight, yet want to remain in contact with their friends at home where they return every weekend. Is that a good enough reason for you?

Sure it is. Breathe, brother, good air in, bad air out.... It'll be ok....

There is a central db, but it's no good in a case like yours. Handicaps are based primarily on the relative strength of the league. A 2 in one region might be a 4 in another, a 7 in one region might be a 4 in another. As far as which handicap applies in Vegas, I would assume it would be the handicap you have for the team you qualify.

-djb

 

[Koop]

Playing in 2 regions it is possible to have 2 different handicaps in the two regions, especially for somebody who hovers between 2 handicap brackets. What are the APA rules about this?
Is this allowed?
Is it the player's (or his team's) responsibility to cross-notify both regions?
What happens if you go to Vegas, particular if it's from the region where you have the lower handicap?
Is either teams eligibility in jeopardy?
Is the player's eligibility in jeopardy?

Why the hell in this age of computer connectivity isn't there a central database recording all scores and generating one handicap?

Hey Steve,

What happened Saturday? I was so disgusted that my team lost that I left. I did everything right as far as match-ups but one of my 3's played like a 1 and that was that. I guess I really shouldn't expect more but it was disappointing none the less. Did they move you up or are you talking about being a 6 in NH and a 5 here? I wondered the same thing as far as why there is no central database so this wouldn't happen.

Koop

 

[catscradle]

Hey Steve,

What happened Saturday? I was so disgusted that my team lost that I left. I did everything right as far as match-ups but one of my 3's played like a 1 and that was that. I guess I really shouldn't expect more but it was disappointing none the less. Did they move you up or are you talking about being a 6 in NH and a 5 here? I wondered the same thing as far as why there is no central database so this wouldn't happen.

Koop

First match - Andy won, Liz won, Kelly lost, I won, Tony didn't have to play.
Second match - Andy won, Liz scratched pocketing the 8 when it was hill-hill, I won, Kelly lost, Tony won.

Before Tony won he went down 3-0 against a very good 5, we all thought we were doomed including Tony. I got to give him credit he then bore down and won 5 straight to pull it out. The other team played their lineup strangely I thought, Tony put Andy up first and they put a not very strong 3 against him, guaranteed win really. They then put up their 4, locking themselves into 6-5-5 to finish. Then they put a 5 who I smoked (I was clearly in stroke Saturday and got some mean looks. Funny nobody gives me sympatetic looks when I'm out of stroke. ). All I can think is that because in the earlier match they put up 6-6-5 who all won, they wanted to let their low ranked players play.

 

[Koop]

First match - Andy won, Liz won, Kelly lost, I won, Tony didn't have to play.
Second match - Andy won, Liz scratched pocketing the 8 when it was hill-hill, I won, Kelly lost, Tony won.

Before Tony won he went down 3-0 against a very good 5, we all thought we were doomed including Tony. I got to give him credit he then bore down and won 5 straight to pull it out. The other team played their lineup strangely I thought, Tony put Andy up first and they put a not very strong 3 against him, guaranteed win really. They then put up their 4, locking themselves into 6-5-5 to finish. Then they put a 5 who I smoked (I was clearly in stroke Saturday and got some mean looks. Funny nobody gives me sympatetic looks when I'm out of stroke. ). All I can think is that because in the earlier match they put up 6-6-5 who all won, they wanted to let their low ranked players play.

One thing about Tony and that is, he is rarely ever out of a match. He did the same thing to me last year. Had him on the ropes but couldn't deliver the knockout. Really impressive win even if it was against me
So did you advance to the states?

Koop

 

[catscradle]

Hey Steve,

...

Age: 1971 (You do the math)

Koop

I did the math, you were born in the year 33 or 34? Cool, are you an immortal like that "Highlander" guy or is your family just long lived?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Playing in 2 regions it is possible to have 2 different handicaps in the two regions, especially for somebody who hovers between 2 handicap brackets. What are the APA rules about this?
Is this allowed?
Is it the player's (or his team's) responsibility to cross-notify both regions?
What happens if you go to Vegas, particular if it's from the region where you have the lower handicap?
Is either teams eligibility in jeopardy?
Is the player's eligibility in jeopardy?

Why the hell in this age of computer connectivity isn't there a central database recording all scores and generating one handicap?

From the basic information I know about the APA (and this all may have changed over the years), information regarding match play is kept local and is not accessable unless otherwise requested. In a situation where you are to play in higher-level tournaments (ie., Las Vegas), your handicap alone is uploaded to a "central computer" but even then, your match history will not be tranferred.

As a result, one might be able to verify a person's handicap from another region, especially if they have been to Las Vegas and plan to go again from another region but for the most part, much of it will go unlooked.

As for handicapped players in one region versus another, that's a bit inflated and feeds the sandbagging myth. Much of the APA is convinced that much of the APA is sandbagging. Now, that isn't to say it doesn't exist. It does but no where near the scope that many would believe. For the most part, players are forced to fill out the same sheets the same way and the APA attracts the same level players throughout so an s/l 2 in New York is going to suck about as much as an s/l 2 in Oregon.

What should always be remembered is that unless you are an s/l 7 (maybe s/l 6), you are considered a beginner by most people's standards in the pool community. That is to say, your improvement can happen in relatively short time, especially if you're motivated. With that said, so long as you are looking at multiple gradations of beginnerhood, you are inevitably going to find people who improve faster than the APA can properly rate. In otherwords, I fully believe an s/l 4 could become an s/l 6 or even an s/l 7 within the course of one season. If that is possible, then there are no limitations to the discrepancies one will encounter in the APA.

The APA doesn't suck. It's simply a league intended for beginner players and those that have little to no desire to improve their game beyond casual competence. You will find the occasional gem for which the APA applauds because without them, improvement would be incredibly slow but for the most part, the best amateur play to find will be in the BCA and ACS competitions and not the APA. In sum, take it for what it's worth. If you're not at the highest level of APA handicap, enjoy your day in the sun. It's much tougher everywhere else.

 

[catscradle]

One thing about Tony and that is, he is rarely ever out of a match. He did the same thing to me last year. Had him on the ropes but couldn't deliver the knockout. Really impressive win even if it was against me
So did you advance to the states?

Koop

Yes, we are with the previso that we have to finish in the top half of the league next season I believe.

 

[frankncali]

As for handicapped players in one region versus another, that's a bit inflated and feeds the sandbagging myth. Much of the APA is convinced that much of the APA is sandbagging. Now, that isn't to say it doesn't exist. It does but no where near the scope that many would believe. "

I agree with this point. With the skill level players in the APA have its only natural for it to fluctuate greatly. That goes with what you say below about
being a SL7. If a player is a 3-4-5 they might be able to run an easier rack but not able to consistent make nice outs on tougher racks. The lower rated player rarely even knows when the rack was tough and when it was not.

I am a SL7 and many times when I play the lower level guys on my team
say that I went about the rack 100% opposite than they would have. Oddly they never change their style that much.

I listened to the sandbagging talk the other night. A SL6 break and has a very very hard runout. He trys it of course keeping the trouble balls until
last and leaves 1 solid and the 8. The SL3 he is playing has two stop shots
that produce 3 easy balls. As he is making the third he does not play shape
but with the rest of his balls on the table he gets a shot while also bumping the 8 in front of a hole. He then makes the easy one and gets tough. The leave is a crosscorner bank that is not that hard. Natural shape if it goes.
He made it and then won with all easy shots.
The SL6's team starts the sandbagging talk. Every game that the 3 won went almost the same way. The SL6 cleared the way and the 3 had fairly easy shots.

I did not know that the SLs were different per region. I had heard it but did not really believe it. It makes no sense if players go to a national event yet their region is overrated even by a SL. I wonder how that works.

"What should always be remembered is that unless you are an s/l 7 (maybe s/l 6), you are considered a beginner by most people's standards in the pool community. That is to say, your improvement can happen in relatively short time, especially if you're motivated. With that said, so long as you are looking at multiple gradations of beginnerhood, you are inevitably going to find people who improve faster than the APA can properly rate. In otherwords, I fully believe an s/l 4 could become an s/l 6 or even an s/l 7 within the course of one season. If that is possible, then there are no limitations to the discrepancies one will encounter in the APA.

I agree that a player can go up pretty easily if they have not had a mcuh of matches. If not the player would have to play on a couple nights a week and
play almost every week to move alot.

 

[HumptyDumpty]

Playing in 2 regions it is possible to have 2 different handicaps in the two regions, especially for somebody who hovers between 2 handicap brackets. What are the APA rules about this?
Is this allowed?
Is it the player's (or his team's) responsibility to cross-notify both regions?
What happens if you go to Vegas, particular if it's from the region where you have the lower handicap?
Is either teams eligibility in jeopardy?
Is the player's eligibility in jeopardy?

Why the hell in this age of computer connectivity isn't there a central database recording all scores and generating one handicap?

Hi Catscradle,

To answer your question.... the APA does have a central database where it stores information on players for many years. In theory this works wonderfully. In reality, it may lack a little but it is a far sight better than the competitors at this point. First of all, the strength of this system lies with 1) players honesty, 2) league operators efficiency and 3) the Equalizer Handicap system. When we talk about players honesty the first thing that comes up is that on the membership application - a form that ALL members are required to fill out - even when they move to another area, players are asked if they were ever a member of the APA. IF they answer truthfully and say "yes", then they are asked "where". Again, they must be truthful. Then the problem becomes - did they give their truthful name or APA membership number. Now, you and I know that the majority of players are honest and do things "lawfully" just as in the real world. But, again, just like in the real world, there are players who seek to cheat the system and will do anything to avoid detection, so "fudging" isn't out of the question. Second, once the league operator gets this info, he must then go to the central database and hopefully detect this player. If he can match up this player based on his information then he will apply that players skill level information to the players new location..... if not, then that player is given a different number and starts out as a new player. NOW, if that player were in my area and I find out that he was not truthful or forthcoming on his application.....he would be suspended. He/she KNOWS and should (just as in real life) pay the price. It happens frequently. Depending on how much the team captain or the rest of the team knew ..... they can be sanctioned as well. That is something that has to be worked out.

Sometimes, the league operator is at fault. They might not have seen the info correctly or might have overlooked that player in the database. In that case the info is corrected as soon as it is found to be wrong. Mistakes happen.... and that goes for league players and league operators.

Third, you are then relying on the Equalizer System to match up the skill levels of that player between two different areas of the country. Everyone knows that there is a lot of pool and some great players in, say, Florida. Leagues there are very strong and very competitive. In Wyoming, however, there are less people, less opportunity to play and fewer "good" players. There will be some differences in the competition in the two states and therefore, some differences in the skill level management. It can't be avoided and yet, can't be overlooked. Some league operators take that into consideration when a new player comes into their area. They will then send the scores from each area to the other in hopes that that player will soon establish a more accurate skill level. It takes time. It may not happen overnight. Most of all, I would say..... again, I think it is far superior to the alternative methods available today. It is a National Database and, in theory, works extremely well. In reality, it faces the same challenges that every mathematically based system faces... implementation in real world scenarios can sometimes be skewed by misleading information or untruthful information.

The Equalizer System relies on ALL of it's players to be honest and keep score accurately. If a few of it's members are untruthful or don't keep score accurately, then it becomes MORE important that the remaining players keep accurate scores. Just like with tennis or golf or any other sport. The scorekeeping can only be as good as its' players and its' management and I, for one, am placing my confidence in 250,000 members and over 200 league operators and am trusting the system.

Hope this explanation helps, and...... GOOD LUCK!

Tammie Jones
APA League Operator

 

[NewGuy]

Tammie,

I play in two different regions and have two different APA numbers. I also have two different ranks, but I think they'll be the same soon. When I joined the second region I was totally upfront about playing in another region. Should I just have one APA number and rank used in both regions or am I ok now?

 

[HumptyDumpty]

Tammie,

I play in two different regions and have two different APA numbers. I also have two different ranks, but I think they'll be the same soon. When I joined the second region I was totally upfront about playing in another region. Should I just have one APA number and rank used in both regions or am I ok now?

Hi NewGuy!

If I were you, I would notify both of these operators and let them know that you are playing in both areas with two different skill levels. They will get together and exchange info and get you caught up where you will have a consistent skill level. Operators make mistakes too! I will admit that it is hard to catch sometimes and sometimes isn't caught until a player brings it up. More than likely you will have the same number if you only paid your fee in one area, which you should have. Your APA Membership is good everywhere in the country, you don't have to pay in both areas. Thanks for being honest!

Tammie Jones
APA League Operator

 

[chefjeff]

Q: How can it be "dishonest" to follow the rules? A: It can't, UNLESS THE RULES THEMSELVES ARE DISHONEST.

Might it be more intellectually dishonest to, for example, not post the handicapping systems (cuz players might actually play by them...the horror!) and expect players to not be human, but angels? It's a systemic problem with the APA rules that CREATES these sandbagging problems; it is NOT "dishonest" players.

The good side of the APA:

They are experts at bringing in new players to the game. Look at their numbers....WOW!!! Excellent. Much could be learned from them and their wonderful marketing efforts. They smoke the others leagues in this arena.

The bad side of the APA:

If you are "honest" (in their terms, not mine), you will never become a consistent winner or ever go to Vegas. So players either stop improving or quit. The solution is obvious, but never considered by the APA. This I'll never understand.

On an additional note, I'd like to see the BCA and VNEA (with cooperation from the APA) create systems to take players away from the APA as the players get better. This would benefit the APA, BCA, VNEA, and pool in general. The same could be done to take players from the BCA and VNEA to the pro levels.

Creating ways to go to the next level is good, especially with the insane policies and rules of a lower-level league holds back improving, HONEST players.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

 

[catscradle]

Hi Catscradle,

... snip a good answer to my question

APA League Operator

Thanks that does help.
The particular situation is that I went up in one region, but have not in the other.
One of my captains checked with the LO and this is what he said (paraphrased of course).

My handicap is right on the cusp between 5 and 6. His region borders another state and he says he has many people in this category. The 2 handicaps are valid within the 2 regions because due to the nature of the score keeping and human beings that happens. Playing within a particular region having a different handicap is acceptable. However, if both teams should happen to go to Vegas (an unlikely event admittedly), then I must use the higher of my 2 handicaps out there for both teams.

Does that jive with your understanding?

 

[NewGuy]

Thanks Tammie,

I'm going to inform both operators. It's interesting however, that I was told I had to pay my yearly fee twice because it was different regions.

 

[HumptyDumpty]

Q: How can it be "dishonest" to follow the rules? A: It can't, UNLESS THE RULES THEMSELVES ARE DISHONEST.

Might it be more intellectually dishonest to, for example, not post the handicapping systems (cuz players might actually play by them...the horror!) and expect players to not be human, but angels? It's a systemic problem with the APA rules that CREATES these sandbagging problems; it is NOT "dishonest" players.

The good side of the APA:

They are experts at bringing in new players to the game. Look at their numbers....WOW!!! Excellent. Much could be learned from them and their wonderful marketing efforts. They smoke the others leagues in this arena.

The bad side of the APA:

If you are "honest" (in their terms, not mine), you will never become a consistent winner or ever go to Vegas. So players either stop improving or quit. The solution is obvious, but never considered by the APA. This I'll never understand.

On an additional note, I'd like to see the BCA and VNEA (with cooperation from the APA) create systems to take players away from the APA as the players get better. This would benefit the APA, BCA, VNEA, and pool in general. The same could be done to take players from the BCA and VNEA to the pro levels.

Creating ways to go to the next level is good, especially with the insane policies and rules of a lower-level league holds back improving, HONEST players.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

I will reply in general to your remarks, Jeff. This is because I will not debate on this forum or argue with anyone. I don't like bashing of any kind and won't tolerate it or participate in it. I'm simply here for information.

First of all, regarding publishing the handicap system. This is a patented system and is protected by law. Much like companies, when they create a product, patent their product so that no one can copy or manipulate it. Coke, for instance, would never release the full "recipe" for their product to the public. They must release certain aspects that relate to what is in the product but they are not required to tell you EXACTLY how it is made. Same is true of Burger Kings "secret sauce" (or is that McDonald's)?? The same is true with this system. It is protected. This is a system that is applied universally across the league and every league that participates plays by the same sytem.

As far as being honest and not being able to succeed in going to or participating in Higher Level Tournaments you are very wrong in that aspect. I can certainly and personally vouch for the integrity of the teams that represent my area in Higher Level Play. I scrutinize them and the APA requires that they scrutinize themselves. They must be upfront regarding their true skill levels and are given the opportunity to do so. After certifying to their skill levels, they are then they have every opportunity to go and compete fairly. If don't certify to their best skill level - then they do risk the possibility of getting DQ'd at HLT. If you know that you play like a 7 as things get more important, then you need to certify to playing at a 7 skill level. If you go into the event as a 4 and get there and play as a 7, you will be DQ'd. YOU know your ability and your performance levels better than anyone. YOU know whether your game gets extremely better when you perform under pressure. Only you know this. There is no "magic formula" that can detect it. If you know it, then certify to it. This is where most people/teams get into trouble. They try to take someone to a Higher Level Tournament at their lowest skill level instead of their highest.

I guess what I'm saying is what the APA Office must say a lot. The system works, if you just let it. Trust this system and know that if players play their hardest every week, if teams keep score correctly, if league operators input things accurately and maintain good management of their league and then if players who play more intensely at Higher Level Tournaments than they do at local league play certify to their best skill level then this system does work. If any part of that breaks down then it is up to the other remaining parts to catch it. It is tried and true and does work when allowed to. If it didn't work, it wouldn't have 250,000 members. Work with it, not against it and I will be willing to bet that You, too, will have success!

Good Luck and Good Shooting!

Tammie Jones
APA League Operator