apa leagues

[suckershot]

If your APA league/division is based out of a popular/large pool hall (not a traveling league) and is played on 9ft tables. It can be ok for a beginner. The APA is a bar table league played mostly in bars. When it is stationed in a pool hall, it is more like a normal decent league.

I played in the APA till I became a 7 (8-ball). It didn't take long, but in retrospect, it was too long for a different reason. If you play in league to improve, the APA is fine, in fact excellent for the newbie, but once you hit an SL5, that should be good enough and it's served its purpose. Move on and go elsewhere where your game will not be ruined due to the visual negative reinforcement of watching people with retarded strokes and bad play.

That's bad for you. Trust me. It isn't good to sit in a chair and watch 4 matches go by where people poke balls around, miss constantly, play horrible patterns, and generally play like $hit all while acting like pool Gods. Your brain is learning that this is part of the norm.

You'll see a huge improvement if you immerse yourself around players who can actually play and are significantly better than you. Watching good pool helps you play good pool. If you see things done the right way 95% of the time vs. 10% of the time...you'll start doing it the right way quicker.

Like Gregg, I generally agree with a lot of what you said. I am an APA player, BTW. It is nice that I am in an area with lots of poolhalls, and thus our APA matches are played in poolhalls with decent equipment (well, most of the time, anyway). I'm not a fan of the huge pockets, but I do know who they're catering to, the amateur, and that's not to say I'm not one, because I am, but I play enough pool to prefer tighter equipment. But at least we get to play on 9 footers, except for the tournaments, which as I understand absolutely must take place on barboxes, at least for our 9-ball divisions.

I do not wholeheartedly agree with your 2nd point. I do agree that your game will probably benefit from playing in leagues/tournaments that feature better players. But I do not think it is fair to blame any decline in your game based on other players habits (i.e. strokes, routines, patterns). Besides, if you are talented enough to exceed the skills of an APA 5-6, then you're probably generally playing enough and watching enough pool to know the difference between good and bad, and to know that bad play is not how it should be. I am not making the statement that APA 5's and 6's are great players, but I think we need to give them a little credit in understanding the difference between good and bad.

I like your 3rd paragraph, only because 3 weeks ago I had a player who did just what you mentioned. She screamed at me about how playing bad players was ruining her game because she was picking up their bad habits. Well, she was an APA 1, and nothing I've ever seen from her would make me think she'd be any better than that, irregardless of who she was playing. She'd set up for shots that were totally ridiculous, then claim she'd make them all the time in practice. You know, like a cut shot with the object ball a sliver off the long rail, cutting it short side about 7 diamonds coming in from more than a 45 degree angle. This coming from an APA 1. Of course, during her match, she couldn't even sink a straight in 2 foot shot into the side pocket.

Anyway, like I said, I do agree with most of what you said. I totally concur with the idea that watching better pool will help you get better, but I don't think that watching bad pool is necessarily going to make you worse, unless of course you believe everything you see is good. I'm not a genius, but I can generally differentiate between good shots/decisions/patterns and bad ones. I watch a lot of videos which remind me what good pool looks like. I think I can afford to watch my low players play very badly one night a week (although it is awful painful to watch ).

 

[TheBook]

The APA league that I am in basically has a female on each team. None are ranked higher than a 2 and that is being generous by the APA. They don't listen to or want any constructive help and to give them coaching is a waste of time because they can't execute the shot.

Our 2 was playing against another 2. I looked at our captain and asked "how are you betting over or under 16?" He asked "How I came up with that number?" I said 2 shots per ball, slop, luck, and of course being 6 pockets the 8 may find one out of turn. We now have a little friendly wager on the over and under. Surprisingly the over doesn't always win.

The games take forever and they act as if they are real pros. Studying every shot, walking around the table, fuss with their hair, adjust they clothes, take a drink, and etc just to miscue, scratch, foul, name it and they find a way to do it except making the ball. It is very comical and painful to watch. I think that when 2 APA 2 play against each other the lag should determine the game. The one that wins the lag should be declared the winner, end of game.

 

[Cory in DC]

The APA league that I am in basically has a female on each team. None are ranked higher than a 2 and that is being generous by the APA. They don't listen to or want any constructive help and to give them coaching is a waste of time because they can't execute the shot.

Our 2 was playing against another 2. I looked at our captain and asked "how are you betting over or under 16?" He asked "How I came up with that number?" I said 2 shots per ball, slop, luck, and of course being 6 pockets the 8 may find one out of turn. We now have a little friendly wager on the over and under. Surprisingly the over doesn't always win.

The games take forever and they act as if they are real pros. Studying every shot, walking around the table, fuss with their hair, adjust they clothes, take a drink, and etc just to miscue, scratch, foul, name it and they find a way to do it except making the ball. It is very comical and painful to watch. I think that when 2 APA 2 play against each other the lag should determine the game. The one that wins the lag should be declared the winner, end of game.

Sheesh. I've given 30 as the over/under. Two's in your division are good!

I can handle bad play, everyone has to learn sometime. But you're right that slow-play by 2's is agonizing. I tell mine, over and over until they get it, that their only objective is to pocket balls, not execute strategy. When I phrase it as "just trust your instinct and shoot the first makeable shot you see" it actually goes over pretty well. (As opposed to saying, "Don't think about what shot to take, because the more you think the worse your ultimate decision will be.")

I haven't played TAP, and I hear they have their own problems (just as the APA does) but one great idea they have is unlimited coaching for 2's. If captains/coaches could just tell their 2's what shot to take, it would save a lot of time. I'm talking about saying "shoot the 12", not a full coach. I'm sure some captain would abuse this, so it would have to be a rule along the lines of unlimited one-sentence coaches, plus the standard 2 longer coaches (or perhaps just 1).

Cory

P.S. Another tip for speeding up your 2's matches is to teach them that when they don't have a shot (and ONLY then), open a cluster (or, as I tell them, "find a ball or balls that don't go and hit it/them at medium speed -- you're bound to improve your position").

 

[catscradle]

The APA league that I am in basically has a female on each team. None are ranked higher than a 2 and that is being generous by the APA. They don't listen to or want any constructive help and to give them coaching is a waste of time because they can't execute the shot...

Isn't that kind of "by definition". If they would take coaching and listen, they wouldn't be a 2 for long. Unfortunately, with the APA system you need 2s and 2s will behave like 2s.

 

[seven]

We had a guy on our APA team who was a SL9 in 9 ball high run of 69 balls in straight), and had to make 75 to sometimes half the amount of balls of another pretty skilled shooter. He would make almost six/seven balls at a clip, and still lose big. The APA has a way of keeping the high level shooters out of the league. Also, it breaks them up, so that no team can shoot more than one SL7 in a night.

No kidding... trust me.. I know the pain. I'm a skill level 7 (eight ball) I dont play the apa 9 ball because 9 ball is my main game and I dont want to ruin it playing on crappy equipment. I'm a runout 9 ball player..high run in staight pool is 36. nothing great..but I consider myself to be a good player.... In my area, seems like all they want to do is put 2's 3's and 4's against me. and most are sandbagging. so its frustrating to lose against these type people. I know I should just get out of the league..but I stay because my girfriend is on the team..and she likes it. although..shes a SL 5 and is already starting to feel a bit like I do I must admit..when I was a lower skill level..the APA WAS fun... now it is not. so I agree..APA is not geared torwards better players. Maybe getting rid of the luck factor of not having to call shots would help.

 

[Gregg]

No kidding... trust me.. I know the pain. I'm a skill level 7 (eight ball) I dont play the apa 9 ball because 9 ball is my main game and I dont want to ruin it playing on crappy equipment. I'm a runout 9 ball player..high run in staight pool is 36. nothing great..but I consider myself to be a good player.... In my area, seems like all they want to do is put 2's 3's and 4's against me. and most are sandbagging. so its frustrating to lose against these type people. I know I should just get out of the league..but I stay because my girlfriend is on the team..and she likes it. although..shes a SL 5 and is already starting to feel a bit like I do I must admit..when I was a lower skill level..the APA WAS fun... now it is not. so I agree..APA is not geared toward better players. Maybe getting rid of the luck factor of not having to call shots would help.

The frustration you seem to have, as I mentioned, seems to stem from playing against a handicap, and not skilled players.

But, I disagree to a point about bar table nine ball; it teaches you speed control, and how to break out clusters that don't come up as often on a full size. Just to throw a few things out there.

 

[FLICKit]

When you look at the APA you have to look at the full picture. It's easy for many people to look at the things that they don't like and just latch on to that like a broken record. You can tell those people cuz everything they say will be 100-90% all negative, and they'll be unwilling to consider any other options. It's amazing to see how one dimensional and how long they hold onto that. As a matter of fact, those people will probably be the ones who will be most upset and rashly contradict what I've just said. They'll usually respond with many juvenile statements. They want to just be critical and not understand anything else.

The APA or TAP for that matter is not designed for the best players. The BCA structure has many more strong players (but even those on the whole are below pro-level players). APA and TAP will have some venues which will have very strong players competing. But on the whole, they focus on the larger groups of players. Many of those strong players in the APA and TAP, will be a subset of those same strong players from BCA (obviously there are a very limited number of strong players out there). Heck, many of the real strong players aren't in any leagues. Just smart for a good player to look at their opportunity in any tournament/system and calculate whether the odds work in their favor (usually to gain money). There are venues in the BCA, VNEA, TAP, and APA where good players can make some extra cash. Just have to do a little research to find them, and have a game that is adjustable and strong enough to handle some minor differences.

The BCA has been around for a long time. The APA also has been around for awhile. Over time, the two together have almost developed a brother affiliation. The BCA having the strongest appeal to the stronger players. While the APA has the strongest appeal to beginner on up. Note: there are some exceptions i.e. where in some areas the APA has the strong players. TAP has come along recently, and it is basically a tweener league - between the APA and the BCA. Many BCA players have been APA players previously. Some of those players have developed their games to new levels. Those players often forget that their development began when they played in the APA. They stayed there long enough that they developed their game (the basics, the foundation, and beyond) to a point where they would be ready to move onto the next level.

In other words, the APA brings in large number of new players and provides a structure by which they can enjoy playing while they develop the basics for a good foundation, and can learn many advanced techniques. Some of those players are now prepared to moved on to new ventures. The APA is able to do this in a manner that is simultaneously fun for the competitive and non-competitive.

I've seen places that don't have or don't use the APA. In those areas many players either don't get started, or they get bored, or they get burnt out, before they can develop their game to a point where it's truly enjoyable. The APA also has the highest ratio of female players of any mixed league. One of the biggest reasons for this is those female 2's that many of you have been referring to. It's one of the rare environments where a couple of people can play on a team without all of the stresses and pressures of having to win, while the rest of the players on the team can be highly competive. Pool is still very male dominated, but pool is much more enjoyable for me, when there are good numbers of women as well. You can still go and compete in those other venues which are primarily men with a rare few women intermixed (and often rarer hotty playing).

People can argue all they want, especially in web forums, but the numbers speak for themself. Take away all the pie in the sky talk and projections. The APA is clearly the largest pool organization, followed by the BCA, VNEA, ... and then the rest. Whether you personally like it or not, there has been a reason and formula for the success of all of those organizations.

 

[Da Poet]

You'll see a huge improvement if you immerse yourself around players who can actually play and are significantly better than you. Watching good pool helps you play good pool. If you see things done the right way 95% of the time vs. 10% of the time...you'll start doing it the right way quicker.

This makes a lot of sense.

 

[FLICKit]

The APA is a bar table league played mostly in bars. When it is stationed in a pool hall, it is more like a normal decent league.

Of course all the national leagues are bar table leagues - BCA, VNEA, TAP, ...
Doesn't matter...

I played in the APA till I became a 7 (8-ball). It didn't take long, ... If you play in league to improve, the APA is fine, in fact excellent for the newbie, but once you hit an SL5, that should be good enough and it's served its purpose. Move on and go elsewhere where your game will not be ruined due to the visual negative reinforcement of watching people with retarded strokes and bad play.

I agree with most of what you say there. Although, there is still things to be gained for a SL5 and above which comes primarily from coaching. This is the first point at which your coaching would have any value. The coaching and training of others can be very insightful for one's own pool game. Also, this is about the first point where you can receive some high level coaching from a good 7, and have a reasonable chance of executing. These tidbits can be quite useful over one's playing career.

That's bad for you. Trust me. It isn't good to sit in a chair and watch 4 matches go by where people poke balls around, miss constantly, play horrible patterns, and generally play like $hit all while acting like pool Gods. Your brain is learning that this is part of the norm.

This is true, there will be players like that. Some can get sucked into that. But, if you have a strong enough understanding of the game, then seeing what not to do, can be a helpful reinforcement tool. For example, it's one thing to try to teach someone not to poke. It's quite another to point out someone else's poking and how often it leads to negative consequences. In other words pokers often think they're stroking smoothly, until they see other pokers and recognize the simularities in their strokes.

You'll see a huge improvement if you immerse yourself around players who can actually play and are significantly better than you. Watching good pool helps you play good pool. If you see things done the right way 95% of the time... you'll start doing it the right way quicker.

This is true. As long as you have the tenacity and committment to endure over the long term, suffering the many losses that the stronger players will definitely inflict upon ya. And then continually using it as a personal motivating factor to learn and improve on your own game. Many people get discouraged encountering so many losses and constantly seeing such a big gap between personal performance and the top notch competitors. It's encouraging to be in a setting where one can win at least periodically. For some, this is a stronger test of one's mettle, to motivate self to win against a relatively equal field of competitors. Otherwise wouldn't want to get in a situation where losing becomes an ingrained habit as well (even if it's to better players).

 

[catscradle]

All I've got to say about this subject is I enjoy playing in the APA, if I didn't I wouldnt' play. I don't care if I get to Vegas. Yes, I sometimes get bored with the lesser players, but that's not the end of the world. I find the petty arguing and the loud bar music more a pain in the butt than low ranked players, but I put up with that too without my life being altered.
It's simple. If you enjoy the APA, play in it. If not, move to something else.