APA needs to step it up

[Jude Rosenstock]

I understand APA criticism is aplenty on azb and I apologize for the redundancy. I’m starting a new thread because I just got back from their Singles Championships, escorting my girlfriend (2018 Texas State BCA B Division Women’s Champion) who qualified to play in both 8 and 9.

I was dumbfounded by how horrible the provided equipment was. Although the past times I’ve participated wasn’t a treat, this year seemed particularly bad. About half the tables we encountered played extremely long, with three rail routes ending two diamonds off from standard. Cue balls were extremely light, making stop shots very difficult and unintended draw common. Balls were very cheap and soft plastic racks on about half the tables made tight racks nearly impossible.

I want to understand the reason why Diamond isn’t the table of choice. It seems the table vendor is paid by charging for games. If that’s the case and the APA absorbs no cost, why not choose a vendor that can provide Diamonds? I understand Diamonds have tougher dimensions than Valley but the quality of their craftsmanship is noticed and the result is better pool at EVERY skill level

In prior years, I practically needed to be coerced into playing in this event. I enjoy APA for its social scene and love playing locally but Vegas always ends up being a disappointment. I’d rather save my vacation time for an extended BCA trip since if I lose, I’ll only have myself to blame instead of slug racks and dead rails. The fact the APA boasts about the prestige of this event and how the founders were once professional players themselves only makes this a more horrible offfense. They should know better. I can’t justify ever attending this event again.

 

[SBC]

APA doesn't make enough money!

 

[AuntyDan]

I've always assumed APA runs their tournaments on Valleys as this is the most common table used in APA league matches. Plus they are a lot cheaper than Diamonds (About half the price new and a lot less used.)

Either way I agree given a choice I'd definitely prefer playing on 7' Diamonds in the BCAPL events. They are generally very consistent and feel and play just like the 9' tables do. Playing on Valleys always feels weird in comparison even if they are properly setup and maintained. I should note that I did play in the APA Master's last year in Vegas and did not notice any problems with the tables myself beyond the basic design/build issues of a Valley.

My understanding is there is a business relationship between BCAPL and Diamond Billiards so because of this it may not be likely they would change APA to Diamond too. I had heard in the past the APA used to use Diamonds, does anyone know if this is true?

 

[WoodyMPW]

Diamonds are used at our annual city tournament.

 

[lorider]

I have only been to Vegas once...2013. I did not have any issues with the tables that year but did read on here others had issues on them back then..

Personally I would rather play on the same type tables I play on all year long. We have one room here with all diamonds and I pls on them once every couple of months and it takes me a couple racks to get dialed in and by then its usually to late in the match to make a comeback...especially against guys who play on them more than.i do.

 

[whammo57]

I just played in Vegas and the tables played just fine...............

I have no idea what you are talking about


Kim

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I just played in Vegas and the tables played just fine...............

I have no idea what you are talking about


Kim

Most events I travel for, I see Super Aramith or Cyclop balls, if triangle racks are used, they’re always rigid. Cue balls are always standard size. Variance between tables is minimal. Did you not at least notice the soft plastic racks and cheap balls?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Diamonds are used at our annual city tournament.

How do players feel about this?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I've always assumed APA runs their tournaments on Valleys as this is the most common table used in APA league matches. Plus they are a lot cheaper than Diamonds (About half the price new and a lot less used.)

Either way I agree given a choice I'd definitely prefer playing on 7' Diamonds in the BCAPL events. They are generally very consistent and feel and play just like the 9' tables do. Playing on Valleys always feels weird in comparison even if they are properly setup and maintained. I should note that I did play in the APA Master's last year in Vegas and did not notice any problems with the tables myself beyond the basic design/build issues of a Valley.

My understanding is there is a business relationship between BCAPL and Diamond Billiards so because of this it may not be likely they would change APA to Diamond too. I had heard in the past the APA used to use Diamonds, does anyone know if this is true?

Diamond and BCAPL had a common owner. That’s no longer the case.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...soft plastic racks on about half the tables made tight racks nearly impossible.

If you're talking about this kind of rack, I've found it much less aggravating to use if I flip it over (with the flange on top). That puts the most rigid part of the rack on top where the balls press against it.

Also makes it easier to lift it off the balls after racking.

pj
chgo

View attachment 84467

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

If you're talking about this kind of rack, I've found it much less aggravating to use if I flip it over (with the flange on top). That puts the most rigid part of the rack on top where the balls press against it.

Also makes it easier to lift it off the balls after racking.

pj
chgo

View attachment 84467

Yes officer. This is the rack that stole my break. I tried flipping it too. The rack was so small, it was lifting balls when I tried to lift the rack.

 

[Johnny Rosato]

What kind of tables did your opponents play on in Vegas?

 

[Celophanewrap]

I think it's a matter of personal preference. You like the Diamonds, overall probably a
better table and more consistent from table to table and Diamond is also the flavor of the
month as tables go, and for good reason to those that prefer them.

The Valleys are what most APA teams play on from week to week and personally, as an
APA player either is ok with me. It's what The APA is partial to and I don't have any issues
with the Valleys,

I do notice "equipment quality" is always a convenient excuse and I've played
on Diamonds that weren't in the best shape. But the balls (aramiths), the racks, the
tables, we all had to play on them, some people did pretty well.

If you really can't stand the Valleys I would suggest that you play only locally if you're
going to play APA or find local leagues and tournaments that use only Diamonds that are
up to your standards.

I'm not trying to argue with you, or demean what you're saying. I understand that different
people like different things.

How many time have I read here on AZ that it's not the arrow, it's the Indian.
You don't like the Valley Arrows, I get that, then go play with the Diamond arrows.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

What kind of tables did your opponents play on in Vegas?

I understand in theory, one could argue that both players are subjected to the same equipment so it shouldn’t matter. Like if this were a football game, both teams have to deal with the snow. In pool, it really does matter. There’s a difference between tough equipment and unpredictable equipment. Tough means your strategy must adjust. Unpredictable means you scratched because your cueball is two diamonds off on a routine route.

I mean, if you feel differently, that’s fine. We all have different expectations when we travel for tournaments and mine are pretty high. I won’t go back until they switch to Diamond. I wouldn’t play on those tables if they were down the street, let alone a thousand miles away.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think it's a matter of personal preference. You like the Diamonds, overall probably a
better table and more consistent from table to table and Diamond is also the flavor of the
month as tables go, and for good reason to those that prefer them.

The Valleys are what most APA teams play on from week to week and personally, as an
APA player either is ok with me. It's what The APA is partial to and I don't have any issues
with the Valleys,

I do notice "equipment quality" is always a convenient excuse and I've played
on Diamonds that weren't in the best shape. But the balls (aramiths), the racks, the
tables, we all had to play on them, some people did pretty well.

If you really can't stand the Valleys I would suggest that you play only locally if you're
going to play APA or find local leagues and tournaments that use only Diamonds that are
up to your standards.

I'm not trying to argue with you, or demean what you're saying. I understand that different
people like different things.

How many time have I read here on AZ that it's not the arrow, it's the Indian.
You don't like the Valley Arrows, I get that, then go play with the Diamond arrows.

Seriously, the arrow and Indian argument is asinine. If that were true, we would all be using house cues. Obviously precise equipment matters.

 

[stevenw00d]

Seriously, the arrow and Indian argument is asinine. If that were true, we would all be using house cues. Obviously precise equipment matters.

Consistent equipment matters! With some warm up time on a table (and I don't know if you got any) you should be able to get a read for the table pretty quick. Those Valley tables probably play different than the Valleys at most bars, and they sure as hell play different than the 9' Bruswicks we shot on for APA at all but one location. Everyone has to adjust. Nothing wrong with you not wanting to go back, but I am sure you aren't the only one that had issues. If they are that bad adjust your game to only go one rail and not have as good of position or play safe instead of trying to get position on the opposite end of the table.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Consistent equipment matters! With some warm up time on a table (and I don't know if you got any) you should be able to get a read for the table pretty quick. Those Valley tables probably play different than the Valleys at most bars, and they sure as hell play different than the 9' Bruswicks we shot on for APA at all but one location. Everyone has to adjust. Nothing wrong with you not wanting to go back, but I am sure you aren't the only one that had issues. If they are that bad adjust your game to only go one rail and not have as good of position or play safe instead of trying to get position on the opposite end of the table.

We actually developed a routine to quickly gauge the tables but some of them really cut down on your position route options. In most circumstances, practice was not allowed prior to a match so you had to figure it out quickly and with only the cue ball.

On a side note, most of the responses I've received (not yours) give me the indication people think I'm a banger. I'm not. Everyone is welcome to look me up on Fargo. My APA rating is 7/9.

 

[tim913]

Don't play APA but would they allow you, as long as your opponent agreed, to bring your own balls and rack?

 

[Celophanewrap]

Don't play APA but would they allow you, as long as your opponent agreed, to bring your own balls and rack?

On league night probably, but not to an event like that. Although I saw it being done once
or twice a couple of things The APA forbids is rack your own, and Magic Rack. They provide
the equipment so that we all use the same stuff so there's no advantage there.

Guys, Jude is obviously not just your pool hall banger. He's been posting here for quite a while
and seem to know his shit. But like many of us when we and our game hits a certain
level to some the equipment begins to make a difference in our game. So we seek a better cue,
a tighter rack, a particular tip, and so on, these things help our game to evolve.

I see, and don't necessarily disagree with his Diamond table argument, but this is The
APA, and in The APA we use (mostly) Valleys. Whether for financial reasons, or whatever,
it their choice for their large National events.

To me, it's a pool table. Quite honestly after the break and my first shot I seldom notice
whether it's a Diamond, or a Valley, or a Gandy, or a Walmart or if it's 7', or 9' or
something else. My main goal is to win. We have balls and pockets.

It would be great if every time we we approached a pool table we could rely on the fact that
they were perfectly level with the best cloth and up to professional playing standards, they're
usually not, and like everyone else I adjust. I'm not a snob, I just want to play and win.

Like I said before, the equipment makes a convenient excuse.

If you show up to play and you see a Valley or Gold Crown instead of a Diamond,
maybe break down your cue and leave. If you feel the equipment isn't commensurate
with your level of play, then don't play - simple.

 

[Runnintable]

I remember they had diamonds at the 2003 Team Nationals. That might of been the last year...the Sardo rack was on all the tables that year.