APA Needs to STOP Re-Ranking Players During Touraments

[JessEm]

These APA bashing threads are BS. Learn the rules. Abide by them. I’ve played in the leagues for 20 years without incident. Anyone with the IQ of a potted fern can read the rule book. If you aren’t smart enough to learn how to work within the confines of their league rules, you should probably get Ubers to the pool hall. I don’t want you operating heavy machinery.

Where in the rulebook is a breakdown of their (arbitrary) ranking system? So we as players can understand when we should move ourselves up? To avoid getting screwed in the middle of the tournament?

I'd be HAPPY to admit your cheap insults are warranted if you could refer us to a comprehensive explanation that's useful...

Until then, like a relocated fern that grew back anyway, you missed the point.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Where in the rulebook is a breakdown of their (arbitrary) ranking system? So we as players can understand when we should move ourselves up? To avoid getting screwed in the middle of the tournament?

I'd be HAPPY to admit your cheap insults are warranted if you could refer us to a comprehensive explanation that's useful...

Until then, like a relocated fern that grew back anyway, you missed the point.

Ask your league operator. I did, 19 years ago.

I’m not the one *****ing on an online forum as to how unfair a league is that I chose to join? You don’t like it, just leave. Don’t ***** and moan on the way out the door. Like I said, 20 years in the league without one issue. And I play at the max handicap. So....

 

[JessEm]

So basically, if I you get to vegas, leave your A game at home because if your team rises to the challenge, the APA will screw you. Why in the world would I even bother to go?????

Not just Vegas. Local APA tournaments too. It's taken me a whole 8 months in the APA to figure out it's a common theme.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Not just Vegas. Local APA tournaments too. It's taken me a whole 8 months in the APA to figure out it's a common theme.

Might I ask your APA skill level?

 

[JessEm]

Ask your league operator. I did, 19 years ago.

I’m not the one *****ing on an online forum as to how unfair a league is that I chose to join? You don’t like it, just leave. Don’t ***** and moan on the way out the door. Like I said, 20 years in the league without one issue. And I play at the max handicap. So....

How do you know I haven't asked my league operator?

His explanation is vague at best; "It's the computer". Every APA team I've met has at least one or two players who've sought an explanation, and the response is always the same... IT'S A GREAT MYSTERY... which makes it impossible to "self-police" your own rank, even if you wanted too. Best you can do going into a tournament is hope you don't play too well. It's no way to live.

On another note, all this hostility... a med issue?

 

[mia]

JUST STOP. You've had plenty of opportunity to rank players BEFORE the tournament started. If someone isn't properly ranked, that's on the Div Reps and LO... DO YOUR JOBS! ... Sandbagging will apparently happen REGARDLESS, no matter WHAT YOU DO! Quit penalizing players because your system SUCKS, and you're just plain lazy!!

For starters, both teams turn in scoresheets. If Team-A's inning count has a large discrepancy, it might be a sign. FIND OUT WHY! Send out the sniffers. Watch the players in question. Pay particular attention to their scores for a bit. And God forbid you have to get off your asterick and go watch a match!

Quick background on this. Our LO asked if we could take a teams spot in a regional qualifier held on Saturday OVER MEMORIAL WEEKEND (end of May). The team we replaced was already qualified so they bailed. It was exactly 1 week before the tournament. People already had plans, but we scrambled and managed to field 5 players, including one who would've received triple-time at work that day. Everyone else was out of town... After our first match, the LO arbitrarily ranked-up 2 players. Both players have established histories, and a solid baseline for their current SL. Regardless, BOOOM. First match of the morning under our belts, and we're DONE. Everyone was extremely unhappy... The LO blamed "the computer" for the ranks, then pointed the finger at one of our other lower-level players, because he wasn't present.... Nevermind that he wasn't even in the state at the time... In summary, we pulled it together for a holiday weekend within a weeks notice, then proceeded directly to get screwed for our efforts.

The system is flawed because it's designed to rate players based on their week-in, week-out competition in a small region. The player performance during any given session helps determine their rating. But remember... they are playing folks in and around a select, small region.

Go to any APA regional qualifying tournament and you'll see 5s, 6s, and 7s from ONE area that could be considered OVERRATED. But now they're facing competition of folks from another small (or maybe no so small) region a bit further away. All of them lumped into one room/tournament. Then you'll start to see the differences between 6s or 7s in one region vs. those in another region. Sometimes, they're not that different. Sometimes they are LIGHT YEARS apart.

Now examine the process once more on a NATIONAL level when a 6 from a small town/small region in upstate wherever gets matched up with a 6 from a larger city in a much bigger region. One guy can play like a good 5 while the other might be a shortstop or a road player. lol.

There's VERY little the APA can do about it except to change player ratings mid-tournament. It helps to level the playing field just a tiny bit. The only other feasible options are:

1) DQ the player who appears to be underrated (VERY controversial given they've paid their way/dues into the tournament, and in the cases of 7s/9s, how does one 'underrate'?)

2) Completely reevaluate their scoring and rating model. This is more realistic but I'd imagine, a monumental task that will leave a SLEW of players complaining about the change, the adjustments, how it affects them/their teams, etc..

The APA's system is imperfect. But saying "Stop changing player ratings mid-tournament" does a tremendous disservice to the entire tourney field.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

How do you know I haven't asked my league operator?

His explanation is vague at best; "It's the computer". Every APA team I've met has at least one or two players who've sought an explanation, and the response is always the same... IT'S A GREAT MYSTERY... which makes it impossible to "self-police" your own rank, even if you wanted too. Best you can do going into a tournament is hope you don't play too well. It's no way to live.

On another note, all this hostility... a med issue?

Not hostile at all. You’re the one that’s all agro with the original post. If you don’t like it, leave. No commentary or fanfare required. The internet isn’t your soapbox because Susan didn’t ask you to the dance.

If you want a detailed explanation of the equalizer system, take it offline and I’ll gladly explain it to you.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The system is flawed because it's designed to rate players based on their week-in, week-out competition in a small region. The player performance during any given session helps determine their rating. But remember... they are playing folks in and around a select, small region.

Go to any APA regional qualifying tournament and you'll see 5s, 6s, and 7s from ONE area that could be considered OVERRATED. But now they're facing competition of folks from another small (or maybe no so small) region a bit further away. All of them lumped into one room/tournament. Then you'll start to see the differences between 6s or 7s in one region vs. those in another region. Sometimes, they're not that different. Sometimes they are LIGHT YEARS apart.

Now examine the process once more on a NATIONAL level when a 6 from a small town/small region in upstate wherever gets matched up with a 6 from a larger city in a much bigger region. One guy can play like a good 5 while the other might be a shortstop or a road player. lol.

There's VERY little the APA can do about it except to change player ratings mid-tournament. It helps to level the playing field just a tiny bit. The only other feasible options are:

1) DQ the player who appears to be underrated (VERY controversial given they've paid their way/dues into the tournament, and in the cases of 7s/9s, how does one 'underrate'?)

2) Completely reevaluate their scoring and rating model. This is more realistic but I'd imagine, a monumental task that will leave a SLEW of players complaining about the change, the adjustments, how it affects them/their teams, etc..

The APA's system is imperfect. But saying "Stop changing player ratings mid-tournament" does a tremendous disservice to the entire tourney field.

BINGO. And there are 3 systems in place for this very reason.

 

[ShootingHank]

I'm sure APA is fun for some people and they sincerely enjoy the camaraderie that comes to playing. Also, it's almost a senior citizen league in my neck of the woods because it feels like a shuffle board league. Anyways, I don't have a problem with people enjoying themselves but the APA format is just crap.

It promotes sandbagging whether someone does it on purpose or not. Nobody is giving their best it's more like how we can beat the system.

When I have smoke breaks, I will listen to the conservations these players have and it's all about setting up #X player vs #Y player because it's beneficial. Too much game management and not enough heart and skill. Don't you always want to play your best?

Why stay the same or lower your standards just to get a win?

 

[JessEm]

BINGO. And there are 3 systems in place for this very reason.

Bingo, what? lol

So, our options are:
1) Get DQ'd, (because your LO didn't have you properly ranked, in someone else's opinion)
2) Convince the APA to "completely overhaul their rating model."
3)??

How about the formula used for ratings so we, as players, can be pro-active about our ranks, and avoid all the trouble of getting ranked out mid- tournament?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Bingo, what? lol

So, our options are:
1) Get DQ'd, (because your LO didn't have you properly ranked, in someone else's opinion)
2) Convince the APA to "completely overhaul their rating model."
3)??

How about the formula used for ratings so we, as players, can be pro-active about our ranks, and avoid all the trouble of getting ranked out mid- tournament?

How about you just play to your maximum output, and let the system work on its own?

Three different systems: local, regional, national.

Local - works off your last 20 games. Innings per match. Safeties. Wins and losses. And strength of opponent. Regional - last 10 matches. Same criteria. National, rack by rack basis, and can be compared against your local and regional stats.

So, at the local level, your match you play today, boots the match you played 20 matches ago. Let’s say you had an off night 20 weeks ago, and got beat by a 4, 3-0. This week, you played a 7, won the first rack, but ended up losing 2-0. Your ranking will go up slightly in the system. You may have been at a 5.2. Now you could be a 5.4. Next week’s match will boot the match from 20 matches previous. Regional system is based on last 10.

Simple enough explanation?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Bingo, what? lol

So, our options are:
1) Get DQ'd, (because your LO didn't have you properly ranked, in someone else's opinion)
2) Convince the APA to "completely overhaul their rating model."
3)??

How about the formula used for ratings so we, as players, can be pro-active about our ranks, and avoid all the trouble of getting ranked out mid- tournament?

Did you sign a handicap declaration form when you played the higher level tournament? They explain these in detail at the captains meeting before play starts.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Bingo, what? lol

So, our options are:
1) Get DQ'd, (because your LO didn't have you properly ranked, in someone else's opinion)
2) Convince the APA to "completely overhaul their rating model."
3)??

How about the formula used for ratings so we, as players, can be pro-active about our ranks, and avoid all the trouble of getting ranked out mid- tournament?

I’m guessing you’re a SL5.

 

[JessEm]

How about you just play to your maximum output, and let the system work on its own?

Maximum output, YES! Getting bounced mid-tournament because someone thinks you or a teammate is playing better than usual, no thanks.

Three different systems: local, regional, national.

Local - works off your last 20 games. Innings per match. Safeties. Wins and losses. And strength of opponent. Regional - last 10 matches. Same criteria. National, rack by rack basis, and can be compared against your local and regional stats.

So, at the local level, your match you play today, boots the match you played 20 matches ago. Let’s say you had an off night 20 weeks ago, and got beat by a 4, 3-0. This week, you played a 7, won the first rack, but ended up losing 2-0. Your ranking will go up slightly in the system. You may have been at a 5.2. Now you could be a 5.4. Next week’s match will boot the match from 20 matches previous. Regional system is based on last 10.

Simple enough explanation?

It makes sense, and it's the best explanation I've gotten yet. However, not practical in terms of knowing in advance if your team will be bounced from a tournament if you play well...

Did you sign a handicap declaration form when you played the higher level tournament? They explain these in detail at the captains meeting before play starts.

Never heard of this and don't know how it applies to the issue, other than to serve as a warning that you might be penalized during the tournament for playing well?

I’m guessing you’re a SL5.

I avoided this question earlier because I don't see its relevance here...?

What if, just maybe, LO's and Reps did a better job rating players BEFORE tournaments. Then, if any adjustments are deemed appropriate DURING, they would be applied LATER??

Sure would prevent WASTING a lot of people's time, and a lot of disappointment and hard feelings...

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

It makes sense, and it's the best explanation I've gotten yet. However, not practical in terms of knowing in advance if your team will be bounced from a tournament if you play well...


Never heard of this and don't know how it applies to the issue, other than to serve as a warning that you might be penalized during the tournament for playing well?



I avoided this question earlier because I don't see its relevance here...?

What if, just maybe, LO's and Reps did a better job rating players BEFORE tournaments. Then, if any adjustments are deemed appropriate DURING, they would be applied LATER??

Sure would prevent WASTING a lot of people's time, and a lot of disappointment and hard feelings...

Based on what you wrote, you don’t understand higher level play. That handicap declaration form would have saved you from getting the boot. You have to fill it out every time you play higher level events. If you don’t know about it, you have no reason to complain about the league. None. You don’t know the rules.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Not hostile at all. You’re the one that’s all agro with the original post. If you don’t like it, leave. No commentary or fanfare required. The internet isn’t your soapbox because Susan didn’t ask you to the dance.

If you want a detailed explanation of the equalizer system, take it offline and I’ll gladly explain it to you.

The pool forum is the exact place for this conversation. Hopefully someone highish in the apa reads on here.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The pool forum is the exact place for this conversation. Hopefully someone highish in the apa reads on here.

Truly, it isn’t. You have 95% of the contributors spouting personal beliefs, instead of facts based on the rules of the league. If you truly want an answer from the APA, contact the head office in St. Louis. They’re quite easy to talk with. But beaking off on a forum when you understand roughly 50% of the facts is counterproductive and inflammatory.

 

[JessEm]

Based on what you wrote, you don’t understand higher level play. That handicap declaration form would have saved you from getting the boot. You have to fill it out every time you play higher level events. If you don’t know about it, you have no reason to complain about the league. None. You don’t know the rules.

Our incident occurred during a "Team" event. It's in my original post...

Apparently our LO, and everyone else, "doesn't know the rules", then. lol

Unless you're simply saying, "they're allowed to do that". In which case, nobody is disputing that. I fully understand, but It's kinda beside the point here.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Our incident occurred during a "Team" event. It's in my original post...

Apparently our LO, and everyone else, "doesn't know the rules", then. lol

Unless you're simply saying, "they're allowed to do that". In which case, nobody is disputing that. It's kinda beside the point here.

Do I need to reply in crayon for you to understand??

Do you know what a handicap declaration form is? Please answer.

 

[Tom1234]

How about you just play to your maximum output, and let the system work on its own?

Three different systems: local, regional, national.

Local - works off your last 20 games. Innings per match. Safeties. Wins and losses. And strength of opponent. Regional - last 10 matches. Same criteria. National, rack by rack basis, and can be compared against your local and regional stats.

So, at the local level, your match you play today, boots the match you played 20 matches ago. Let’s say you had an off night 20 weeks ago, and got beat by a 4, 3-0. This week, you played a 7, won the first rack, but ended up losing 2-0. Your ranking will go up slightly in the system. You may have been at a 5.2. Now you could be a 5.4. Next week’s match will boot the match from 20 matches previous. Regional system is based on last 10.


Simple enough explanation?

I have a question about the “local” system. You say my last 20 games are the basis. I played so badly after being raised to a SL 7 that I was dropped back to a 6. However, after JUST 3 matches against SL 5s, I was raised back to a 7. I beat a 6 and a 4, but also lost to a 6 and a 4. I never got to to the hill in those loses. My overall record this past session was 5 wins and 6 losses. I played 5 matches against 7s and lost (badly) in 4 of them. The one win was hill/hill and I only won when he missed a easy 8 ball! One ball away from a 4-7 record with NO wins against a SL 7. How could you justify raising my handicap back to a 7?