APA, Not for me.

[CaptainJR]

I'm starting this because something I said took Billy Bob's 'League 8-ball break strategy?' off the subject and I didn't mean to do that. So I'll start this thread. Sorry Billy Bob.

APA, Not for me. That's all, just me. It is fine for the people that like it and seems to be very fun oriented format.

Here are the quotes from the other thread that lead up to this responce.

CaptainJR - Oh! by the way. I'm assuming BCA rules, Ball in hand, etc.) I would never consider playing APA rules.

catscradle - Why not? There are really only 2 real differences I see between them.
1. Other than for the 8-ball, slop counts in APA. This IMO is very rarely a factor.
2. If you pocket scratch the cueball while attempting the 8 it is loss of game in the APA, which I believe until recently was the BCA rule too.

CaptainJR - I never did care for 8 on the brake wins. One big issue to me is I don't think they play Ball In Hand?? Am I wrong about that? Your right about scratch while attempting the 8 losing, that probably wouldn't bother me at all. You do that and your probably going to lose anyway.
I shouldn't have mentioned APA. Should have know something about it would come up in a reply and I didn't intend to turn this into that. In short, APA is fine for new player or people that just want to have fun. It isn't something that a large majority of serious pool players will participate in mainly because of there handicapping system (giving the weaker player the advantage).

Walt in VA - Yes, APA plays ball in hand on fouls. Also, play "take what you make" after the break, instead of open table as in BCA.

catcradle - I disagree (this isn't an APA issue, but a handicapping issue) to some extent. Leaving aside the issue of sandbagging which is a whole other can of worms, the better player should always win, games on the wire not withstanding. Occassionally a lucky roll or two will get you, but that's part of pool. Interestingly enough I just started in an un-handicapped league, the only stat they keep is wins and losses, best percentage on team A plays best percentage on team B, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, and 5 vs 5. It is nice to just play wide open. The problem is that if you're on a weak team (like me) and can play a little (like me) you bubble to the top and are always playing tough competition, which is good for your game, but a little tough on your confidence some times. I'm interested to see what effect it will have on my overall game.

Not to long ago I had 3 APA teams trying to get me to play with them. I didn't really like the rules, but I was considering it because I do like playing sets rather than the individual game format of my non-handicapped, non-APA, non-TAP, non-anything league. 20 games, 4 sets of 5. Captain makes the line-up. A person can only play one game per set. We use BCA rules. I also didn't like the idea of handicapping at first until someone pointed out that I had played handicap golf for years, so why not pool? So I looked into it.

I sent a series of five emails to the APA asking about there handicap system and how it worked. They himmed and hauled around saying how fair it was through four responses not giving me the details on how the handicaps were figured out. In my fifth email I went to great length explaining the detail I wanted. I explained how golf handicapping works that it gives the better player his do and rightfully deserved slight advantage. In other words, it gives the weaker player an appropriate amount of help that if they play there best and the better player slips a little, the weaker player can win. This is how other handicap systems are done as well, bowling for example. In response they finally told me that in there handicap system the weaker player is given the advantage and how it was designed that way on purpose to make the league more competitive and attract new players. Attracting new players is great for the game! But to me, giving the weaker player a little advantage is like saying, 'what you need to do here is learn how to sandbag'. Thus the 'can of worms' that catscradle mentioned. In time I heard from several people about the sandbagging problem in our local APA and TAP league's. Between this handicapping issue and some of the rules that I don't particularly care for (8 on the break wins. Don't have to call all shots. Etc.), APA is not for me. If you play in and enjoy APA league, that is GREAT! I'm sure it is a fun time.

 

[Koop]

Hey Captain,

You have every right to your opinion and I don't blame you for not wanting to join. It just so happens that the APA is the only large body of pool in my area. I can tell you from a lot of experience that sandbagging runs rampant and it does seem to benefit the weaker players. Not only that but I can tell you, from a recent phone call with my area representative, it is only about the money that the league office makes that matters. In the APA you play a total of 5 matches per night with a maximum total of 23 handicap. For example you could play a 7, 6, 5, 3, and a 2. If you break the 23 rule your team forfeits all points for that night. On the first night of the new session the team we played broke the 23 rule and nobody realized until the last match was half over. I am the team captain and normally would let the other team know before the match started so they wouldn't forfeit, but for some reason no one caught it. The scoresheets were sent in and the other team lost all their points and dropped out of the league. I felt bad but rules are rules. The league rep actually admonished me for applying the rules he and the rest of the APA set forth. He wasn't upset about the points going to us but was furious he lost a team which means less money for him. In no uncertain terms I told him if he didn't like it then he should write a bylaw stating that the above rule only applies to teams he really likes because if it were the other way around he would have gladly awarded all the points to the other team.
I apologize for ranting but this was something that really irritated me and it's the politics that drives me nuts. Basically, I really can't blame you for feeling the way you do.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Templar]

I'm starting this because something I said took Billy Bob's 'League 8-ball break strategy?' off the subject and I didn't mean to do that. So I'll start this thread. Sorry Billy Bob.

APA, Not for me. That's all, just me. It is fine for the people that like it and seems to be very fun oriented format.

Here are the quotes from the other thread that lead up to this responce.




Not to long ago I had 3 APA teams trying to get me to play with them. I didn't really like the rules, but I was considering it because I do like playing sets rather than the individual game format of my non-handicapped, non-APA, non-TAP, non-anything league. 20 games, 4 sets of 5. Captain makes the line-up. A person can only play one game per set. We use BCA rules. I also didn't like the idea of handicapping at first until someone pointed out that I had played handicap golf for years, so why not pool? So I looked into it.

I sent a series of five emails to the APA asking about there handicap system and how it worked. They himmed and hauled around saying how fair it was through four responses not giving me the details on how the handicaps were figured out. In my fifth email I went to great length explaining the detail I wanted. I explained how golf handicapping works that it gives the better player his do and rightfully deserved slight advantage. In other words, it gives the weaker player an appropriate amount of help that if they play there best and the better player slips a little, the weaker player can win. This is how other handicap systems are done as well, bowling for example. In response they finally told me that in there handicap system the weaker player is given the advantage and how it was designed that way on purpose to make the league more competitive and attract new players. Attracting new players is great for the game! But to me, giving the weaker player a little advantage is like saying, 'what you need to do here is learn how to sandbag'. Thus the 'can of worms' that catscradle mentioned. In time I heard from several people about the sandbagging problem in our local APA and TAP league's. Between this handicapping issue and some of the rules that I don't particularly care for (8 on the break wins. Don't have to call all shots. Etc.), APA is not for me. If you play in and enjoy APA league, that is GREAT! I'm sure it is a fun time.

Captain JR,
I have been playing APA League Pool for several years. You are correct in that there are things about APA rules and their handicapping system that can be annoying at times. I, like you, generally don't like playing under any handicap for either opponent. I prefer to play even. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who enjoy playing pool but have not devoted the countless number of hours of practice and accumulated the thousands of game playing experiences needed to play pool at a higer skill level. The APA handicapping system works toward evening the playing field (so to speak) to allow players of lesser ability to compete with players of higher ability. How do they do this? By requiring the player of lesser ability to win fewer games that the more highly skilled player. A player with a skill level of 2 is just beginning. A skill level 7 (the highest in APA) will routinely run the table if given the opportunity. If a 7 plays a 2, the 7 needs to win 6 games, the 2 needs to win 2 games. If two 6's play one another, it is a simple race to 5. The same applies when two 7's play against each other. If a 6 plays a 5, the 6 needs to win 5 games, the 5 needs to win 4 games. Okay, that's simple enough. Now comes the hard part. What constitues skill level? Most people out there are honest and they will always play their best. Pool being what it is, some days you play really well and some days you don't. Your average, honest ability will eventually settle you into the appropriate skill level. As time goes by, your ability increases and your skill level goes up. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and there are people out there that intentionally play below their ability to maintain a lower handicap. This will provide them with an obvious advantage and they do this by ensuring that they have numerous innings at the table or by intentionally losing to players below their skill level, or both. They have the skill to run the table but if they do, they know their rating will move up (if they do it often enough) and there goes their advantage. I am at skill level 6 and just on the verge of moving to 7. This should happen within the next several months. Because of this, my team captain always pits me against the best player on the opposing team. This is good because I know that I have to play my best to win and it is also good because I know I am dealing with someone who knows his way around a pool table. Things get a little murky when you have to play someone you don't know and he has a lower rating. I have beaten numerous 7's with my one game advantage but it was usually due to them getting out of line or making some other mistake or, a few times, by making the 8 on the break. I know how it feels though because players of lesser ability have done the same thing to me and in the same way. But the bad part is like when I played a 2 once...he needed 2 games and I needed 6 games. I won the lag, broke, ran a few balls and missed. He got up, ran three balls, hooked me with a safety, I shot, didn't make contact with one of my balls, he gets ball in hand and runs out. This happened two times in a row and he ends up the winner. Hey! 2's aren't supposed to be able to play that way. Now comes the question of why someone would want to sand-bag. Money? Fame? Well, the only reason I can think of is that a team loaded with players of high ability coupled with fairly low skill level numbers gives them an overall and distinct advantage. Their team places high at the end of the session, they automatically qualify to play in the end-of-session tournament, win it and get the cash. Or they play in the Vagas tournament and get a free trip to Sin City. Regardless of all the phony handicapping, heavy cue ball and small bar boxes, I play in the APA becuase I enjoy playing pool...I don't need the money and Las Vegas is too hot.

 

[Billy_Bob]

I'm starting this because something I said took Billy Bob's 'League 8-ball break strategy?' off the subject and I didn't mean to do that. So I'll start this thread. Sorry Billy Bob.

Hey no problem (really!)

I've played APA *and* BCA.

I will only play BCA now.

'nuff said...

 

[catscradle]

Captain JR,
... The APA handicapping system works toward evening the playing field (so to speak) to allow players of lesser ability to compete with players of higher ability. How do they do this? By requiring the player of lesser ability to win fewer games that the more highly skilled player...

I also play in the APA and am grateful we have it warts in all, but I really don't think the games on the wire system works all that well for handicapping because it is all or none you lose the game or not and generally the better player wins. If a 4 plays a 7 and the handicaps are legit it is very unlikely the 4 will win.

I like the APA 9-ball handicapping system much more for 2 reasons. First of all it is incrimental like the golf or bowling systems mentioned by Cap'n. If you don't know the system, they essentially count balls like 14.1 and the handicap deteremines how many points a particular person has to get to win the match. The second thing I like about it is even if you lose the match you at least make some contribution to the total team score, therefore, you have incentive to keep trying even when it is clear you'll lose the match.

If an 8-ball system could be devised which gave a lesser player a truly even break (without sandbagging) it would be a great boon. Also if the 8-ball system were constructed in such a manner that even if a person won just one rack it would contribute to the teams score it would really add some incentive for weaker players. Maybe it could be reconstructed so that there were points for winning the match just as now, but also bonus points for how many racks are won total vs. the playing handicap total. Even turning that around so that total racks won by the team vs. handicap total has the heavier weight might be better. I don't have an answer, but the goal should be to give all players incentive to persevere and get what they can even when it is clearly almost impossible for them to win. The system should also be constructed as to give better players the incentive to win as lopsided as possible rather than squeaking by to control their handicap.

I thing they have a good methodology in 9-ball which can with a little ingenuity be adapted to the 8-ball system as well.

 

[catscradle]

... Otherwise, I believe that your bashing the APA so much is GETTING A LITTLE OLD.

Maybe you're basing that statement (and your reply in general) upon past posts that I haven't read, but I really didn't that the Cap'n came on all that heavy handed in this post.

 

[frankncali]

JR
I read your post and it seems like you spent alot of time on the issue of whether or not to join.
Maybe too much.
Its one night per week and its not life and death.
If you are friends with the people that are wanting you to play
then go play and have fun being with your buddies while you still can.

You seem to be too concerned with the handicapping situation. Its not that big of a deal. Because the system is in place an because people are people
all you will ever hear about is the complaining.

Things you dont hear very often are
how many people I have met from around the country that remember you and still stay friendly.
People in my local league helping each other out whether its lessons or
needing repair work on a car or needing tires or a plumber.
How local tourneys become very friendly because everyone knows everyone.
How people have parties to watch games or fights.

I could go on with a bunch of other things that you get out of the league that you never hear.
Bottomline is that its not much different than traveling to bars or pool rooms to play a tournament. Each have their own rules and you play because its
a night of pool and it really does not matter.
The APA gives yu a chance to have some fun and play pool. If your worried about sandbaggers then your probably worried about too much in general.

As for me I play APA and like it. I see my buddies and play different people.
I have met alot of nice folks from every walk of live and we share a common
interest in pool. I played in the US Amateur and met people from all over the
country and have seen them since and always stop and talk. I even met some in thier cities and played some pool at thier local place.
I go to Vegas each year whether I am qualified or not. I always know a bunch of folks and like seeing the pool and sweating friends matches. Theres
also plenty of minis.
I even get to see all my old buddies since I have moved a couple years ago.
They come to Vegas and we all meet up and have fun.
Its not for everyone but some consider it a competition and IMO it should be viewed more social. I am a 7/9 and its hard to play all the time but I still
go every night and hang out while doing some coaching and chewing the fat with friends. Thats what it is all about.
You will always hear the negative about anything but with most things
there are always many positives.

 

[UWPoolGod1]

I have played APA for 3 sessions and been an SL7 since the 2nd week. Two MVP's later I don't feel that it really does anything for my game personally besides get my ego up from beating SL2's 7-0. Since we made the playoffs last session, and figure it would probably be the last time, I decided this current session to just be a sub when it was closer to where I live. I like the league for the extra larger local tourneys that I can join and get more money back. It is a good league for Sl2s-Sl5s. Possibly Sl6's and Sl7's who have no aspirations to play in larger BCA/ACS tourneys against better players. Competition drives me to compete. I hate to lose and strive to improve as not to lose to them the next time. BCA/ACS gives that with better similar driven players, not just players out to bang balls around during drinking time. Just my opinion.

Just to touch on the above response, I also have met wondeful people during league play and am glad that I have. Some of the nicest-worst pool players out there. But I also like to watch well played pool. Watching my Sl2/3 teammates bang balls around for an hour long match gets frustrating. Guess its the competitor in me.

 

[CaptainJR]

(1) JR, maybe you did not read my posts where I stated that golf has more sandbagging than all of the pebbles of sand in the world. Hello?!

(2) Whoever told you that the handicapped players have an advantage is full of crap. An S/L 7 will usually beat anyone below his skill on most of the nights.

(3) The APA, unlike golf I might add, has a voting procedure where a real violator can be bumped up right in his own poolhall by the other players. This concept carries all the way up to the nation levels. GOLF HAS NO ADJUSTING PROCEDURES FOR HANDICAPPERS I will repeat. How can you love golf so much and hate the APA SO much is beyond me. When you think about it the APA has the fairest handicapping system of any sport that I know of. If you disagree, then please name me a sport that has a better handicapping system. Otherwise, I believe that your bashing the APA so much is GETTING A LITTLE OLD.

I think you need to read my post agian.
(1) it says "I had played handicap golf". Note the word 'had', I don't play handicap golf anymore and I didn't like the sandbagging there either.

(2) The whomever was the APA

(3) I didn't bash the APA. I said that I don't like the rules or the handicap system. I also said, "It is fine for the people that like it and seems to be very fun oriented format."

(4) Oh, you didn't have a '4', I'll start a 4. If you are looking for a bashing, I'll give you a small one. What I didn't like was the way the APA tried to hide and avoid telling me the way the handicapping really works.

If you've read some of my other posts you'll find that I don't take spots either.
Honestly, I'm glad you have so much fun in the APA leagues that you can even become defensive about it.

Cheers

 

[chefjeff]

<snip>

I sent a series of five emails to the APA asking about there handicap system and how it worked. They himmed and hauled around saying how fair it was through four responses not giving me the details on how the handicaps were figured out. In my fifth email I went to great length explaining the detail I wanted. I explained how golf handicapping works that it gives the better player his do and rightfully deserved slight advantage. In other words, it gives the weaker player an appropriate amount of help that if they play there best and the better player slips a little, the weaker player can win. This is how other handicap systems are done as well, bowling for example. In response they finally told me that in there handicap system the weaker player is given the advantage and how it was designed that way on purpose to make the league more competitive and attract new players. <snip>.

DDKoop:

The league rep actually admonished me for applying the rules he and the rest of the APA set forth. He wasn't upset about the points going to us but was furious he lost a team which means less money for him. In no uncertain terms I told him if he didn't like it then he should write a bylaw stating that the above rule only applies to teams he really likes because if it were the other way around he would have gladly awarded all the points to the other team.

Whitewolf:

The APA, unlike golf I might add, has a voting procedure where a real violator can be bumped up right in his own poolhall by the other players

I wan't going to get on this thread, but for the good of the game, I must.

These three responses make me think again the APA is about politics, not pool....

A VOTE???!!! I can't think of a worse way to gauge a player's abilities. How about using a lottery or astrology? "If elected as a 5, unlike my opponent, I promise never to shoot as a 6 or 7."

And having a rep complain about following their own rules!!!??? Geez! What kind of perverted thinking is that? Punishing people for doing the right thing...great idea--NOT!

I played APA about ten years ago...(hold index finger in air)...ONCE. I started out as a 3 or 4 and didn't play too well the first night. The next week, I'm listed as a 6!!! When I asked what happened, I was told that the league operator saw me playing in another bar that week and "knew" I wan't a 4, so she just decided that a 6 for me was "fairer."

So, I had the audacity to ask about the handicapping system. She refused to tell me outright but told me to look in the rulebook. So I look in the rulebook and guess what it says? It says to ask your local rep!!! Talk about Catch-22.

I was snapping in 8-ball breaks that year. I got, I think eight 8-ball breaks with one in the city tournament, even. "You'll get a trophy for those," I was told. Oh boy, that'll add to my collection, I thought. It was a black ping-pong ball sloppily glued onto a 2''X2" piece of cheap wood. No name, dates, or numbers. Trashed it.

I know they're the biggest league and bless them for their maketing skills...but I have to really wonder how many potentially great pool players are retarded by these insanities, and never become great, or worse yet, quit altogether, as mentioned by a poster, above. To me, that is the true tragedy of APA....the rest of it is easily handled individually by simply exiting the league.

Jeff Livingston

 

[CaptainJR]

(3) Sounds like bashing to me. It's like saying to someone that they stink like hell but you like them anyway. Saying something good about something doesn't forgive or replace what you said negatively.

(4) I am glad that the APA hides the handicapping system. Back when they didn't, everyone could be experts at sandbagging. Now they are guessing.

BTW, Fred Agnir mistakenly put on the CCB forum the APA handicapping system, or rather what an ex-APA inside member had written an article on how it worked. The APA asked Fred to delete his posts and he did. Meanwhile, I was on the same APA team with the same members for 2 straight years. My captain kept records for every player. After I gave him the new way the rules worked, he applied them to his spreadsheet and everyone changed to how the APA had them ranked.

And your are correct in that a good SL 4 is the worst matchup for an SL7. BTW, I would like to mention here that I don't think the APA handicapping is fair. In 8 ball there should be SL9s, but this would be hard to schedule a match between a 9 and a 2 if you know what I mean. They should even it up a bit like if an SL7 misses an 8 ball, the SL2 wins automatically.

Regards, ww

Just what did I say negative? The absolute only thing I said negative was about them hiding the handicap system. You just mentioned to me that they don't tell it so they can avoid people taking advantage of it to sandbag. Why didn't they just say that to me in the first place instead of making me feel like an idiot having to keep replying to get an answer?

Are you saying that, me saying I don't like their rules, is negative? If you are, your giving me a little more credit than I deserve. Me saying I don't like something has nothing to do with it being right or wrong. I don't like the 9 on the break winning either. Does that make it wrong? No. If most people thought that, the rule would be changed. So evidentially I'm the one wrong in thinking that one lucky stroke shouldn't determine the game.

I'll tell you what I'm seeing from other posts here. I'm seeing that there are much bigger and more important concerns about the APA than my little handicapping complaint. And there must be a lot of people complaining about it or you wouldn't have to be on the defensive all the time. Instead of you fooling around with me your time might be better spent looking into some of these other concerns.

That about sums it up for me. I've said all I have to say about the subject and I'm done defending what I said or what you say I said. If you don't like what I said that is just to bad. You see I'm done trying to be nice also. Just leave it alone and go play your APA. You can listen to the 2s say 'I beat a 7 tonight!!! so I'm a GREAT pool player.'

 

[Williebetmore]

(3) Sounds like bashing to me. ww

WW,
In all of these forums there are "bashers" and there are "pool fanatics." The Captain may criticize, but he is not a "basher", I've never seen him bash anything except occasionally himself. Welcome aboard Captain to the honorary society of pool fanatics (its a great ship on which to sail).

 

[frankncali]

Cradle
I agree with alot of your post however the part about the 4 versus the
7 matchup IMO is backwards.

A 7 will always have a chance to win any match. There will be very few times that a 7 just never has a chance even playing another 7.

When a 7 plays a four its a 5-2 race. The 7 plays better but a four can play okay. He only needs 2 games. If during the games the table is layed to his advantage or he simply makes a good shot or two he can win very easily.

IMO this is the toughest match for a 7. I am a 7 and this is were I have to play my best.

I think that 9 ball APA is fairer than the eight but is really aimed to not have many high rated players. It makes little sense to raise the skill levels two spots and then keep the 23 rule the same.
However if a player sandbags in 9 ball the player actually hurts his team some. You need points to win and to make playoffs. I have seen a few teams hold a player to only a few matches and them come into playoffs
a skill level off or so but then it just comes matching up correctly.

I think people worry to much about the skill levels, handicapping system
and sandbagging. IMo most of the ones that complain about a persons skill level really have no clue as to how to judge a players abilities. Most
people look at how someone plays one night and one match and thats hard to judge. Even as a 7 I have had nights where I am sure I played worse than
what most would consider a 7.
Its all about playing pool and trying hard to win. No matter if you win or lose
just try to do what will give you the best chance to win. If you win great
if not ..shake the players hand and ask someone where you might have gone wrong. Most APA players try to run out to much and think that is the way to
win. The tough ones to play are the ones that understand the game and put themselves in postion to win but just dont quite shoot as good or know as much.
A good APA LO can make a little difference but a bad one can make a huge
difference.

 

[Williebetmore]

Oh yeah, just some observations that rest on their own merits:

Any handicapping system that does not favor the better player is lame, lame, lame; and encourages sandbagging.

Sandbaggers are lame, lame, lame.

Golf, as played at true golf clubs, does not permit sandbagging. At our club in Pittsburgh anyone not posting every score was expelled. Anyone caught cheating (including improving their lie) was expelled. Anyone taking a mulligan was expelled. But of course if you played with your wife (ie. hit and giggle) your score was bound to be a little higher, so of course there are always ways around it if you are so desperate to gain that gambling edge.

 

[Pelican]

Cradle
The tough ones to play are the ones that understand the game and put themselves in postion to win but just dont quite shoot as good .....

Frank, I believe this situation occurs with a lot of older players such as myself. Because other players remember when we shot lights out thirty or forty years ago they think we are sandbagging if we miss a shot now. We know what to do but have a problem with execution due to eyes, age, and physical problems. But then every now and then we get on a streak and, bam, shoot like a pro. Don't happen often but because of it you get the "Oh yea, bring out the sand bags the water's getting high" when you miss a fairly easy shot.

Later, Pel

 

[Razor_Blade]

Myth #1 Weaker players have a statistical advantage.

I have played APA eightball for seven years, three of wich I kept detailed records. In my experience, the stronger player wins most of the time.


Myth #2 Sandbagging is rampant.

Most lower ranked players want to move up in Skill Level. It is the team Captains that encourage sandbagging. The vast majority of players ranked SL 5 and under, are not skilled enough to convincingly play below their true ability. Some players who claim to sandbag are really playing up to their speed. They simply want you to believe that they are better than they are.


Fact #1 Everyone gets accused of sandbagging.

Anyone below an SL 7 who has a really good, or bad night, will be accused of sandbagging.


Fact #2 It`s not for everyone.

The APA simply was not formatted to benefit highly skilled players that enjoy really good competition. League night to me is a chance to hang out with a some friends, drink a few beers, and try to make one member of the opposing team wish they had taken up ping pong instead of pool.

 

[Pelican]

League night to me is a chance to hang out with a some friends, drink a few beers, and try to make one member of the opposing team wish they had taken up ping pong instead of pool.

Very well put razorblade, tap-tap-tap, Pel

 

[Phylbert57]

I am not crazy about the APA myself but it does serve the purpose as stated by others. It gets people into the game. THe handicap system they use is naturally fallable as any would be. I captain one APA team and another TAP team. I am also on someone else's APA team and another TAP team. I don't "allow" sandbagging on my teams and if I see it from others, I am very vocal about it. Of course, in my room we have mostly in-house league play so I pretty much know how everyone plays.

APA has helped me in some ways. I got my game back and can confidently play in a semi high pressure situation. I say (semi) high pressure, because it is important for the team that I win or at least do my best, whatever the outcome. I don't feel so much pressure in a tournament situation any more either.

My biggest objection to the APA is all the money they are raking in!!! In my room alone, we have so many teams (5 nights X avg. 8-10 teams per night) that we probably pay the salaries of the league operators every week. If we kept that money in house, we could have one hell of a league and pay out some real money to those who deserve it. The heck with getting to go to Vegas to spend alot of my own money that I can't afford!! Win the cash and take myself to Vegas if I want to!!

Phyl

 

[poolguy123]

APA thoughts

Phylbert57- I agree- the money they take versus the money you receive from 1st or 2nd place is near criminal. I understand that it probably goes to the Division tournaments and then to pay for Vegas trips and such, but I feel it's way too lopsided to give all the money to a VERY FEW at the top(or the LO's-I don't know how much they take)

I've played 2 sessions of 8-Ball as an sl7. Yes, I have observed 1 sandbagger rated an sl3, who obviously had more skill and knowledge than any 3 I ever saw. But, this session he is an sl5! You can't hide it forever.

From what I see- I don't think the handicapping favors the weaker players. It gives them some hope that they might win, but usually the higher ranked player seems to win. Yes, an sl5 on a bad night can lose to an sl4 on a good night- but that's as it should be. It makes you try to bring your best game every time. And I agree, a good 4 is the toughest matchup for me. Makes me work!

Yes- some lower ranked players will brag about beating me (I have lost to 3's, 4's, 5's, & 6's), but I know they aren't capable of understanding that they had a huge spot to start with and that things went their way or they did shoot very well for their skill level or that I played badly or made a bad decision and deserved to lose. I let them revel in the glory of their win!
Some can be a little obnoxious about it must most are not.

I do wish they would divide the skill levels up into 2 different divisions. Like 2,3,4 in one div and 5,6,7 in another. The 23 point rule would need adjusted on both sides but then the competition would be evened out some.
Hopefully some better players would be encouraged to join the league. Their are only 1 or 2 other sl7's in my division now. Without solid competition, it's hard to be diligent in practicing each week to become a better player. In that respect- it's not all that helpful to my game. On the other hand, my team expects me to win most of my games, so that peer pressure does keep me going some. I also try to better my previous session record of table runs- can't do this by slacking on the practice time!

I'm not the captain, but I do most of the coaching. This is the part I enjoy the most. To impart some knowledge and encouragement to my team members(those who want it ) and see them use it to improve and win a match with it is awesome.

For the most part, I don't worry about the handicapping system, the sandbagging, the skill level of the person I'm playing, or the score. I just play to win every game possible until the other player comes over to shake my hand- then I know I've won!

Done rambling............... Jim

 

[catscradle]

Cradle
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I think that 9 ball APA is fairer than the eight but is really aimed to not have many high rated players. It makes little sense to raise the skill levels two spots and then keep the 23 rule the same...

I couldn't agree with you more. We've a nine on our team and we really have to jump through hoops to get him in a match. It's not like 9s are automatic winners or something, it's tough to get 75 points when your opponent needs 31. They really need to raise the 23 for 9-ball.