APA Opinions

[DoomCue]

Let's clear up something right now:

I have played in the APA.
I have played in the VNEA.
I have played in the BCA.

All 3 leagues encourage new players to join a team. In the APA, I played round robin. In the VNEA, I played round robin. In the BCA, I played both round robin and match play.

With the formation of master leagues or advanced leagues, it puts like players with like players, and usually noone is getting mowed down by someone that is that much over their handicap. It is a learning experience for any new player, no matter what league they are a part of.

All 3 promote pool. The last 2 just do it better.

What makes the APA kind of a joke is the rating system they use for player averages. It is the least definitive of the 3, which in turn causes bigger ranges of players within 1 rating. Since the handicapping is done from the player's averages, the lesser players are not actually getting spotted what they should get. It also causes more sandbagging. It is not hard to figure out that the APA was formed by Poolplayers, and not mathematicians. And then to offset these built in problems, they added the '23' rule, which caused more problems (for teams). And to top it all off, they think all their
'formulas' are top secret. Let's just say the APA deserves the annual Kevin Troudeau award for leagues.

C'mon Scott, you're seriously mentioning the APA and Kevin Trudeau in the same sentence? The APA isn't hustling anyone, but there are plenty of members who try to hustle the system. That's a pretty big damn difference. That's not the APA's fault, that's the fault of those unscrupulous members. Any league with handicaps can be victim to sandbagging. A league where the "formulas" are known, while informative even to those who don't cheat, is even more informative to those who do cheat. For those who cheat, giving them the formula would be like giving car keys to a thief.

I'd really like to see you back up this statement: "All 3 promote pool. The last 2 just do it better."

-djb

 

[Endymion]

And to top it all off, they think all their'formulas' are top secret.

I'm pretty sure that, based on this comment alone, that you do not know what the formulas are. In fact I'd be surprised if you could even give a decent rough sketch of how APA handicapping works. Cutting and pasting from the Equalizer sheet doesn't count.

Let's just say the APA deserves the annual Kevin Troudeau award for leagues.

Yep, no bias here.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Any league with handicaps can be victim to sandbagging.
-djb

I believe that's a true statement, but (in APA) if the team Captain is doing their job, sandbagging could be a thing of the past.

As a long time member (a low four digit number) I'm currently faced with making a decision to either no longer play APA, or roll over and lose as my Capt requests (to keep my handicap down). I don't mind losing if I actually get beat, but damn if I'm content to roll over!!

Reason I mention this is, keeping the older members (tenure, not age) is equally important as bringing in new members. Is it not?

Quesion to APA LO:
Why do the League Operators not clamp down on the sandbagging issue by placing responsibility on the Captains (beyond what the rule book states).

 

[DoomCue]

I believe that's a true statement, but (in APA) if the team Captain is doing their job, sandbagging could be a thing of the past.

As a long time member (a low four digit number) I'm currently faced with making a decision to either no longer play APA, or roll over and lose as my Capt requests (to keep my handicap down). I don't mind losing if I actually get beat, but damn if I'm content to roll over!!

Reason I mention this is, keeping the older members (tenure, not age) is equally important as bringing in new members. Is it not?

Quesion to APA LO:
Why do the League Operators not clamp down on the sandbagging issue by placing responsibility on the Captains (beyond what the rule book states).

I'm not a LO, but I think the process should begin with the members. If you suspect sandbagging, report it to your captain or directly to the LO.

While I have heard many sandbagging accusations (usually by the losing player/team), I have never seen it or experienced it personally. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I don't believe it's as rampant as some on here attempt to portray.

-djb

 

[CreeDo]

A VNEA honcho gave me a sandbagging horror story about the APA, but it turns out that he either played in a weird and drastically different APA from the one I know, or the rules changed since he played, or most likely he had a sleazy LO or captain or maybe was just surrounded by inattentive people.

I think VNEA's system is worse. On my VNEA team I can't play because it would force my C-level teammates into the open division for states. I can't play against certain teams because they'd rather take their chances getting 5 points rather than giving away 1 (which makes sense to me too). I was also subtly encouraged to sandbag, even tho my teammates are good people. It's very tempting and you get put in these weird situations - like my ranking would have gone up in my first few matches if I shot a 40, whereas if I lost one I'd have stayed down and we would have a guaranteed win on points. It's also a definite problem that it's based on balls rather than games. Good players know it's meaningless how many balls are left on the table when one guy smokes the other. The leftover balls in a failed run don't matter between runout capable players. Only at very low levels should anyone care that they ran 4 instead of 2, or whatever.

If I run out on efren reyes and beat him 10-0, that goes NOT mean his handicap should drop at all or that mine needs to jump hugely. If I break and sink 3 balls for the opponent, have no shot, he has 5 easy shots but only makes one and then I run out, 10-4 doesn't accurately reflect that he only made a single ball and couldn't run 4 to save his life. And it's just goofy that the entire shooting match can come down to a situation where I need to 10-0 the other guy, and if he breaks and makes one of each, he's won and we can unscrew our cues. Ditto weird situations where I need to run 8 before the other player runs 2 or 3. You are not playing "8-ball" when one player doesn't have to sink the 8 to win. Ranking, matches and tournaments should be decided on won games, not pocketed stripes or solids.

One thing I gotta say about APA though is that the 23 rule occasionally bites my ass. I like the idea that you can make a powerhouse team if you want in VNEA. I don't mind it so much, but not everyone wants to build their team with 'the token chick who starts as a 3' or 'the handicap-salvaging sucky guy' in mind. I hate how we can start as 23, play well and improve, and suddenly someone has to stop playing because we've broken the handicap. We had to field a 3 man team at last year's best of the best tournament (and won lol! but that's abnormal). You shouldn't be punished with a broken-up team just cuz some people improved.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

I am personally tired of all the b*&^hing and complaining about the APA. I try to stay positive in all of my post that I comment on. I'm to the point that I'm realizing that no matter what is done people are still going to complain, and the sad part is the complaining is constantly about the same thing reguardless of any efforts that are made to make things better.

The APA was designed to get people involved in pool, to have fun and be competative. I've played in TAP and the one thing that I don't like about TAP IS keeping Score. You have to track balls made, balls missed, scratches, balls left on table, defenses, and everything else, can't think of any others. But that doesn't keep all of that still doesn't stop a sandbagger, and handicap manipulation.

If your a skilled 7 in 8-ball, and 6 or better in 9-ball your lower level players shouldn't be getting that many turns at the table anyway. If my individual games aren't over in 3 innings or less, it's usually a tough table, a lot of safety play going on, or I'm not trying to win yet PERIOD!!!!! And I'm a APA S/L 5 in 8-Ball and 9-Ball. So Mr. 7 S/L from and earlier post if you would rather play a S/L 5 in a 5/3 race I'll take that match up everyday.

My solution is everybody play the best pool that you can play, be all that you can be and let the handicap take care of it's self, mark all defensive shots (any shot that doesn't go in the pocket where you feel no honest attempt was made to pocket the ball counts as a defense) it's not that difficult a person is either going to make or miss a shot and I don't mean just barely, you know when a person tried to make a shot or not, if you don't you need to pay closer attention to the players in your league.

Write people up for handicap review each session turn the forms in to the league office. On those people who alway's play seemingly better than what their handicap suggests that they are capable. Everything is controllable if we take the time to do something rather than sit at the computer and complain.

If your team gets to good well it's time to split it up and form another squad with equal power going to each team. My 8 ball team has 2 6's, 1 5 (myself), and 5 4's. Each week we play 1 6, me, and 3 of our 4's. If I go up guess what it's time to make a change because the dynamics of the system we have in place won't work anymore. But, that's just part of the system. The problem is people just don't want to change, it's taken the core of our team 7years to get to this point but, change is enevitable, for everyone.

I could go on but, I won't I hope that I've raised some good points and that what I've said won't fall on deaf ears.

Enjoy the game and play pool. Black Cat BUT

 

[Endymion]

Problem w/sandbagging is that it's rarely blatant, and defining it and dealing w/it can be a problem.

For instance, one of my pool friends says that I sandbag since I play better at tournament time than I do in weekly league. Now I play pretty good in weekly league (regular Top Gun list contender) but I can't disagree w/him that I play better under the pressure of a tournament setting. I do, however, disagree that that constitutes sandbagging.

On the other end of the spectrum, we ran into a team in the finals of our 8 ball team regional 2 years ago that blatantly sandbagged, but our LO couldn't do anything about it. They had to beat us twice, and at the end of the first go round, I had them marked for approximately 25 defensive shots, while they had themselves marked for 3 or 4. The LO simply told them to be more conscientious about marking safeties and let it go. I learned later that this team was run by a former LO, and had taken the approach of not marking their own defensive shots all year long (thus artifically inflating their innings and keeping their SL's low). Now, this bit them in the ass at Vegas, as they got DQ'd for taking too many raises, but that didn't help us any.

If the general awareness of what constitutes a defensive shot was higher, maybe they could've been caught before they stole the Vegas slot. Most lower SL players wouldn't notice what they were doing, and even if the LO was alerted to their behavior they'd have to catch them in the act (which is a tough proposition). So, solutions? I don't know...

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Problem w/sandbagging is that it's rarely blatant, and defining it and dealing w/it can be a problem.

For instance, one of my pool friends says that I sandbag since I play better at tournament time than I do in weekly league. Now I play pretty good in weekly league (regular Top Gun list contender) but I can't disagree w/him that I play better under the pressure of a tournament setting. I do, however, disagree that that constitutes sandbagging.

On the other end of the spectrum, we ran into a team in the finals of our 8 ball team regional 2 years ago that blatantly sandbagged, but our LO couldn't do anything about it. They had to beat us twice, and at the end of the first go round, I had them marked for approximately 25 defensive shots, while they had themselves marked for 3 or 4. The LO simply told them to be more conscientious about marking safeties and let it go. I learned later that this team was run by a former LO, and had taken the approach of not marking their own defensive shots all year long (thus artifically inflating their innings and keeping their SL's low). Now, this bit them in the ass at Vegas, as they got DQ'd for taking too many raises, but that didn't help us any.

If the general awareness of what constitutes a defensive shot was higher, maybe they could've been caught before they stole the Vegas slot. Most lower SL players wouldn't notice what they were doing, and even if the LO was alerted to their behavior they'd have to catch them in the act (which is a tough proposition). So, solutions? I don't know...

DEFENSIVE SHOT COUNTS BETWEEN THE SCORE SHEETS DO NOT HAVE TO MATCH!!!! If you feel that a person play defense, or missed on purpose mark a defensive shot, if score sheets from any team constantly go into the league office with no defenses they will be redflagged. Don't worry about what the other team does, make sure that your score sheet is correct.

Black Cat

 

[FLICKit]

While I have heard many sandbagging accusations (usually by the losing player/team), I have never seen it or experienced it personally. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I don't believe it's as rampant as some on here attempt to portray.

True.
And on top of that many people (usually sore losers as you say) misrepresent someone else as sandbagging. A player appearing to be underrated, is significantly different than sandbagging. This has been clarified in other threads.

Sandbagging is any form of intentional action utilized by player(s) to manipulate their rating lower than what they're capable of. Thus, cheating. This sort of intentional cheating will happen by players in this league or any others mentioned, which have any sort of equalizing factors for increased competitiveness. For example, if a BCA league (or any other) tries to utilize some point system / percentage of the team's performance for handicapping teams, then everyone knows that all you have to do is not play very strong in the beginning. This will thus pad your stats, and provide an unscrupulous net advantage for the team over the long run.
The drawback to non-equalizing league formats is that the outcome of the match/game is almost invariably determined before the match/game even starts. When a strong player, plays a weak player, it's not even a challenge and is thus boring.

Getting back on track, a significant majority of claims of sandbagging are misrepresented (by sore sports). These are the instances where a player plays strong or even noticeably above their skill level. First off, this is often the first oxymoron of the sandbagging claim. A true sandbagger/cheater is trying to play below their level so they can be rated lower. Playing above level is counterproductive to an unscrupulous sandbagger. Only exception would be when there is something important on the line... i.e. a must win scenario. But this would not often occur in normal week to week league.
The next instance of sandbagging misrepresentation, is even if a player plays stronger, doesn't mean they're a higher skill level player. Without knowledge of their consistency from week to week, stronger play in one week is virtually worthless for assessing someone's skill level. Most everyone has good days and bad days. Most of you wouldn't want a system that changes every week, trying to keep track of those weekly play fluctuations. A true skill level is also based on the player's consistency, along with a factoring in of their best performances. This is what the APA system is based on.
The final instance of sandbagging misrepresentation, once again states even if a player plays stronger, doesn't mean they've been sandbagging. As stated earlier stronger play does not usually reflect that a player is sandbagging. Oh contrare. Most every player (note not all) who plays pool wants to improve and get better. As a matter of fact, the best way to beat any handicapping system is simply to improve and get better. Why? Because any realistic handicapping system is always going to rate you based on past performance. Therefore if you're better now than you were previously, then you will always get a bit of a handicap edge. Often times this has better results than intentional sandbagging, because you won't have to worry so much about being disqualified, since your track record shows a history of improvement. Having seen the APA leagues from many different levels and perspectives, I'd say this is the largest factor, player's improving and getting better at playing pool, which is misrepresented by the sandbagging accusers.

In order to truly make a case for sandbagging, would have to have enough information to be able to discount any of the aforementioned rational reasons for their handicap. Most sandbag accusers would not or in many cases could not follow through with enough viable information to support their claims. As a result, many will use a few instances, and exponentially expound on that to mean that therefore it must be rampart everywhere. Those are the ones that will argue to the end of eternity to justify their opinion, as if it were fact.

 

[Endymion]

DEFENSIVE SHOT COUNTS BETWEEN THE SCORE SHEETS DO NOT HAVE TO MATCH!!!! If you feel that a person play defense, or missed on purpose mark a defensive shot, if score sheets from any team constantly go into the league office with no defenses they will be redflagged. Don't worry about what the other team does, make sure that your score sheet is correct.

Black Cat

Until I ran into this particular situation, I would have completely agreed w/you. As it stands, I 90% agree w/you. The situation I described was blatant yearlong cheating and it gets around what you are describing as a solution as they would never have been redflagged.

Edit: We never played that team until the finals of the Regional. If I ever see another team do something similar in weekly play, I will bring it loudly and immediately to the LO's attention.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

True.
And on top of that many people (usually sore losers as you say) misrepresent someone else as sandbagging. A player appearing to be underrated, is significantly different than sandbagging. This has been clarified in other threads.

Sandbagging is any form of intentional action utilized by player(s) to manipulate their rating lower than what they're capable of. Thus, cheating. This sort of intentional cheating will happen by players in this league or any others mentioned, which have any sort of equalizing factors for increased competitiveness. For example, if a BCA league (or any other) tries to utilize some point system / percentage of the team's performance for handicapping teams, then everyone knows that all you have to do is not play very strong in the beginning. This will thus pad your stats, and provide an unscrupulous net advantage for the team over the long run.
The drawback to non-equalizing league formats is that the outcome of the match/game is almost invariably determined before the match/game even starts. When a strong player, plays a weak player, it's not even a challenge and is thus boring.

Getting back on track, a significant majority of claims of sandbagging are misrepresented (by sore sports). These are the instances where a player plays strong or even noticeably above their skill level. First off, this is often the first oxymoron of the sandbagging claim. A true sandbagger/cheater is trying to play below their level so they can be rated lower. Playing above level is counterproductive to an unscrupulous sandbagger. Only exception would be when there is something important on the line... i.e. a must win scenario. But this would not often occur in normal week to week league.
The next instance of sandbagging misrepresentation, is even if a player plays stronger, doesn't mean they're a higher skill level player. Without knowledge of their consistency from week to week, stronger play in one week is virtually worthless for assessing someone's skill level. Most everyone has good days and bad days. Most of you wouldn't want a system that changes every week, trying to keep track of those weekly play fluctuations. A true skill level is also based on the player's consistency, along with a factoring in of their best performances. This is what the APA system is based on.
The final instance of sandbagging misrepresentation, once again states even if a player plays stronger, doesn't mean they've been sandbagging. As stated earlier stronger play does not usually reflect that a player is sandbagging. Oh contrare. Most every player (note not all) who plays pool wants to improve and get better. As a matter of fact, the best way to beat any handicapping system is simply to improve and get better. Why? Because any realistic handicapping system is always going to rate you based on past performance. Therefore if you're better now than you were previously, then you will always get a bit of a handicap edge. Often times this has better results than intentional sandbagging, because you won't have to worry so much about being disqualified, since your track record shows a history of improvement. Having seen the APA leagues from many different levels and perspectives, I'd say this is the largest factor, player's improving and getting better at playing pool, which is misrepresented by the sandbagging accusers.

In order to truly make a case for sandbagging, would have to have enough information to be able to discount any of the aforementioned rational reasons for their handicap. Most sandbag accusers would not or in many cases could not follow through with enough viable information to support their claims. As a result, many will use a few instances, and exponentially expound on that to mean that therefore it must be rampart everywhere. Those are the ones that will argue to the end of eternity to justify their opinion, as if it were fact.

TAP! TAP! TAP!

 

[FLICKit]

DEFENSIVE SHOT COUNTS BETWEEN THE SCORE SHEETS DO NOT HAVE TO MATCH!!!! If you feel that a person play defense, or missed on purpose mark a defensive shot, if score sheets from any team constantly go into the league office with no defenses they will be redflagged. Don't worry about what the other team does, make sure that your score sheet is correct.

Whoa there nelly! Sounds like you and Endymion are basically saying the same thing.

What you say is true. Endymion is just pointing out that other teams need to be aware to mark their safeties as well, even if different that opposing team, so that the redflagging of the team in the example provided can be initiated appropriately, as soon as possible.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Until I ran into this particular situation, I would have completely agreed w/you. As it stands, I 90% agree w/you. The situation I described was blatant yearlong cheating and it gets around what you are describing as a solution as they would never have been redflagged.

Edit: We never played that team until the finals of the Regional. If I ever see another team do something similar in weekly play, I will bring it loudly and immediately to the LO's attention.

I wasn't really trying to bring attention to you, I was really just trying to make the point that night in and night out, week in and week out, session in and session out that it is the responsibility of all captain, score keepers and every member of our league to keep it honest by following all of the rules that are in place, rather than complain about something without taking available action to make a change.

The situation that you discribed is one that does happen and it also illustrated that in the end it did them no good to do it anyway. I personally feel that most people feel pressure to keep their handicaps down because they don't want to break up a good team not only of players but, more importantly of friends.

But a side from that it's still not fair for anyone to have an unfair advantage because someone is not rated properly.

Black Cat

 

[FLICKit]

I don't mind it so much, but not everyone wants to build their team with 'the token chick who starts as a 3'.

Speak for yourself... There are many perks to that token chick...

 

[Endymion]

If someone from APA headquarters is reading this, it might be beneficial to have your software not only redflag a team w/little or no safeties, but also to look for large discrepancies between the number of safeties a team marks on themselves and the number their opponents mark. That way a team couldn't take advantage of the current 'split the difference and call it good' rule the way that team did.

Edit@FLICKit: Amen brother.

 

[OnePocketChamp]

The APA with over 260,000 members is without a doubt "good" for pool, yes, the rules are somewhat skewed toward the lower skill level player so they can compete and hopefully contribute to thier team. Generally these leagues seem to have fewer problems during league play than a cash league and do promote the overall sport of pool which is a good thing for all of us that love pool and want it to grow. APA has a valid position in our sport as does BCA, I support both!!

 

[CreeDo]

flickit: don't get me wrong, I was only talking about for some people
But of course she's the girlfriend of another dude, darn. I actually am cool playing with girls in league, the ones who join leagues tend to be pretty decent, they wouldn't have the interest to join otherwise.

cat: don't get mad at me, it's true... I'd rather play a 5. But my 5 friend took me out in a tournament cuz he's really like... 5.5, almost 6
But anyway, I hate when the opponent has to only win 2. I'd have to be playing pretty bad to give away 3 games but 2 can happen. Sometimes I don't like how the race is shortened if 7s are involved, like I'd prefer a 6-4 race against my 5 friend than a 5-3 race.

Anyway I do like the APA best out of all leagues I've been in.

I also don't sweat sandbagging much, but can a LO tell us how it's handled when 2 scoresheets show different things? Do they just take the scoresheet with more marks? Or average them? I know they don't contact the players and resolve the differences cuz there's always this one guy who accidentally pads on lots of innings cuz he doesn't get what an inning is and doesn't pay attention.

Safeties boost your average, but since I can't go any higher, does it mean anything if I bother to call them or not? Since APA allows slop, nobody calls anything, including safe, which is a shame. Would it affect my opponent's rating if I play a defensive shot and don't call it and others don't recognize it? Or can it only affect mine?

One thing I like is that our local LO has pretty much complete veto power on anything. He seemed pretty clear that all we have to do is report fishy behavior and he'll clear it up, and he won't let any red tape or technicalities keep him from clearing it up. If the numbers say a guy is a four, but he personally knows the guy is a 6, or people he trusts all assure him the guy's a six... then the computer info gets changed and the guy becomes a six. That might sound unfair but I think it keeps things honest.

 

[Hutchfish]

And to top it all off, they think all their
'formulas' are top secret.

I can personally attest to the validity of Snapshot's statement. I was personally told by a league operator that to reveal the system(formulas) for the calculations of a player's handicap/skill level would be a violation of their contractual obligations to APA Corporate.

Secrets in public endevours are never good.

I joined the APA in 2000, and I've been ranked a SL7 since my second week from joining, and I have maintained that ranking continuosly for the past seven years. I will probably continue to participate in the APA, but I am seriously considering the Master's division and saying good-bye to the regular five matches. I'm another one who has to work for a living and just don't have the time to hang around till 11:00pm before I get to play. Watching a race to two take an hour and a half just KILLS me!!! I've seen several matches last till way past midnite.....that's too much.

 

[MrLucky]

Good and valid point...

I will probably continue to participate in the APA, but I am seriously considering the Master's division and saying good-bye to the regular five matches. I'm another one who has to work for a living and just don't have the time to hang around till 11:00pm before I get to play. Watching a race to two take an hour and a half just KILLS me!!! I've seen several matches last till way past midnite.....that's too much.

The long low handicap matches and a few long take all day to shoot SL'7s matches I will agree are an issue that should and could be addressed if the captains controlled their players and tried to abide by the rules.

I have found that many captains are slow to speed up their players and will allow them to take all day to shoot and some captains even abuse the time out rules by conferring with the player as if it was the united nations deliberating ! I am personally trying to work on this issue with my team and with the ones we play. Admittedly since I am in a in house league that has a league manager and a division rep on premises it is a little easier than for a traveling team.

 

[kaznj]

I feel the APA is a great way for newer players to learn the game and develop. It can get boring for 4's and up to sit and watch 2-3's play a tough table. Especially with no smoking in the pool halls in New Jersey. With time outs and cigarette breaks it takes and hour or more just to play 5 games. I would like to see the 3 foul rule used for 4's and up. 2's and 3's are not ready for the 3 foul rule. Perhaps allow an extra foul if the difference between players is 3 or more such as a 4 playing a 7. I like the open table after breaks rule. This helps all players of all levels. The biggest complaint I hear is jumping players at the whim of the director. I have heard players who have lost to a weaker player and moved up the next week. There doesn't seem to be any standard. By the way I am a 5 in 8 ball on the bar tables.