APA --playoffs rules question

[justadub]

At playoffs, COC or citywide, that's what I'm assuming he's speaking about. We just played this weekend.

You had to sit in front of the others teams table. You could not talk to your team unless someone called a coach. If the other team called a coach, you could then talk to your team. Other than that, nothing. I actually quite liked that part of it

Of course, that was of course, in our match, I was shooting with bih, on a hill/hill match, winner advances, and teammate called a coach. Didn't need one, as I was just charting the area to get on the 8ball that had a few blockers, so the window was small and was taking my full minute to check it out.

He called coach, whoops, I had a coach earlier when they reminded me about the bih in kitchen after break scratch... I said I don't play much APA so sometimes I forget them. So, now I give up bih, and my opponent has bih and we lose.

Oh, he had no clue what to do, but thought I was not sure for some odd reason (way too many Bud Lights most likely) So, I had NOT had a drink all day, but I paid the price for alcohol anyways,,,wtf ??
Oh well, win some and lose some

Well, in our Division....you are allowed to talk to your player until its his turn. Anyone on the team.

Even at Tri Cup.

Our LO has suggested reminding folks about that at times....to encourage and help the newer and/or less experienced players.

I wouldn't know anything about how it goes in Vegas, sigh.....

 

[jojopiff]

That's a consistent issue within the APA, too many different rules from place to place.

From the APA Team Manual:

General Rules 11(b)
... Mark the coachings (also called time-outs) with a 'T' to avoid confusion. In any event, taking too many coachings will not be considered a violation of the rules, although consistant attempts to take too many coachings may result in a sportsmanship violation. It is up to you to notify your opponent if he is taking a coaching he does not have coming. Disagreements are handled just as any other protest or dispute

"At playoffs, COC or citywide, that's what I'm assuming he's speaking about. We just played this weekend.

You had to sit in front of the others teams table. You could not talk to your team unless someone called a coach. If the other team called a coach, you could then talk to your team. Other than that, nothing. I actually quite liked that part of it

Of course, that was of course, in our match, I was shooting with bih, on a hill/hill match, winner advances, and teammate called a coach. Didn't need one, as I was just charting the area to get on the 8ball that had a few blockers, so the window was small and was taking my full minute to check it out.

He called coach, whoops, I had a coach earlier when they reminded me about the bih in kitchen after break scratch... I said I don't play much APA so sometimes I forget them. So, now I give up bih, and my opponent has bih and we lose.

Oh, he had no clue what to do, but thought I was not sure for some odd reason (way too many Bud Lights most likely) So, I had NOT had a drink all day, but I paid the price for alcohol anyways,,,wtf ??
Oh well, win some and lose some "

This should be brought up to the national level and discussed with them. The LO's are not allowed to CREATE a ball in hand foul that does not exist in the official rules book. I would definately send an email to the national office. Your LO is making up rules as they go.

I just called the owner of the league I play in, happen to be good friends with him. He just bought the league last year. He said the by-laws are due every February and would look into it.

Essentially the reason this rule was there before (for our league anyways) was there was 1-2 individuals using this to their advantage. Calling timeouts when they don't have them to let the player know to do something different. The example I was given was if a player (usually lower level) has 2 balls left and they're shooting the "wrong ball" then they would call timeout and the player would then know to shoot the other ball.

I actually believe the rule is wrong in the APA Team Manuel. This is vaguely worded and encourages the behavior in my previous paragraph. A player might not know if they have a timeout and that shouldn't be punishable by foul, but a coach is sitting there and has access to the scoresheet and can easily see if a timeout is available. This is my opinion.

 

[TCo]

...

You had to sit in front of the others teams table. You could not talk to your team unless someone called a coach. If the other team called a coach, you could then talk to your team. Other than that, nothing. I actually quite liked that part of it

...

Does sound like they're making Shtuff up as they go along. APA states:

Coaching is defined as giving advice to your teammate during his turn at the table.

and

Some examples of what is not considered coaching are: telling a player which
category of balls is his, reminding him to chalk up or to mark the pocket when
shooting the 8-ball, giving advice before the break, or telling a player a foul has
occurred. Comments such as “good hit” or “nice shot” or answering a player’s
question concerning rules is not considered coaching. Any comments made to
a player when it is not his turn at the table are not considered coaching.

...and unless you're playing at the Library, cheer all you want as long as you're respectful of your opponent.

 

[Billiardsfan]

I just called the owner of the league I play in, happen to be good friends with him. He just bought the league last year. He said the by-laws are due every February and would look into it.

Essentially the reason this rule was there before (for our league anyways) was there was 1-2 individuals using this to their advantage. Calling timeouts when they don't have them to let the player know to do something different. The example I was given was if a player (usually lower level) has 2 balls left and they're shooting the "wrong ball" then they would call timeout and the player would then know to shoot the other ball.

I actually believe the rule is wrong in the APA Team Manuel. This is vaguely worded and encourages the behavior in my previous paragraph. A player might not know if they have a timeout and that shouldn't be punishable by foul, but a coach is sitting there and has access to the score-sheet and can easily see if a timeout is available. This is my opinion.

I did not say to call your LO, contact the National office. The LO's cannot create a ball in hand foul that does not exist in the team manual. And I do not mean to get into an argument about what one LO does versus another. I am not telling you that your friend is doing something wrong on purpose or trying to lie about anything either, just that they are not allowed to just willy nilly change the rules. The APA has very strict guidelines and if they are not following them, contact the national office.

 

[jojopiff]

I did not say to call your LO, contact the National office. The LO's cannot create a ball in hand foul that does not exist in the team manual.

He's the owner. Now, not to put words that he didn't exactly say, but I inferred that he/all can have by-laws and put rules in place that he sees fit. Besides, I believe the rule in the Team Manuel is incorrect and prefer our "local" ruling anyhow.

 

[Billiardsfan]

He's the owner. Now, not to put words that he didn't exactly say, but I inferred that he/all can have by-laws and put rules in place that he sees fit. Besides, I believe the rule in the Team Manuel is incorrect and prefer our "local" ruling anyhow.

The owner is the same as the LO for these purposes. Just because you like this rule that they are enforcing, doesn't mean that you will like the next one that comes into play?

 

[Celophanewrap]

I just called the owner of the league I play in, happen to be good friends with him. He just bought the league last year. He said the by-laws are due every February and would look into it.

Essentially the reason this rule was there before (for our league anyways) was there was 1-2 individuals using this to their advantage. Calling timeouts when they don't have them to let the player know to do something different. The example I was given was if a player (usually lower level) has 2 balls left and they're shooting the "wrong ball" then they would call timeout and the player would then know to shoot the other ball.

I actually believe the rule is wrong in the APA Team Manuel. This is vaguely worded and encourages the behavior in my previous paragraph. A player might not know if they have a timeout and that shouldn't be punishable by foul, but a coach is sitting there and has access to the scoresheet and can easily see if a timeout is available. This is my opinion.

Local rules do trump the Manual at the local level of play and maybe the rule could be worded a little differently but I don't agree that it is wrong. That rule has been in place for quite a while. Really, how hard is it to keep track of one or two time outs per game, though I do suppose that's why the book recommends that you mark them down when they are taken. There are times when The typical APA player isn't the brightest bulb in the pack.
It's kind of similar to the BIH in the kitchen rule after break rule, it's what I call using the rules to cheat. Every so often the APA leaves you a way to cheat that is well within the rules

 

[Billiardsfan]

Local rules do trump the Manual at the local level of play and maybe the rule could be worded a little differently but I don't agree that it is wrong. That rule has been in place for quite a while. Really, how hard is it to keep track of one or two time outs per game, though I do suppose that's why the book recommends that you mark them down when they are taken. There are times when The typical APA player isn't the brightest bulb in the pack.
It's kind of similar to the BIH in the kitchen rule after break rule, it's what I call using the rules to cheat. Every so often the APA leaves you a way to cheat that is well within the rules

Local BY-LAWS do not "trump" the team manual. At least not according to the National office. I most likely will not be able to convince anyone that this is true no matter what I say.

 

[jojopiff]

The owner is the same as the LO for these purposes. Just because you like this rule that they are enforcing, doesn't mean that you will like the next one that comes into play?

Fair point. However, I don't expect to like every rule that is put in place by any person or league. I'm a business owner as are the people who own the local leagues and I think they should have some say in how their business is run. Not to beat a dead horse, but this rule was put into place (in my area) for a couple people who were purposefully circumventing the rules(I gave the example in my previous post, it's cheating within the rules). This can be a different situation for others in leagues where the person owning the league are not honest, well respected, and somewhat decorated pool player...That is not my particular case.

 

[jojopiff]

Local rules do trump the Manual at the local level of play and maybe the rule could be worded a little differently but I don't agree that it is wrong. That rule has been in place for quite a while. Really, how hard is it to keep track of one or two time outs per game, though I do suppose that's why the book recommends that you mark them down when they are taken. There are times when The typical APA player isn't the brightest bulb in the pack.
It's kind of similar to the BIH in the kitchen rule after break rule, it's what I call using the rules to cheat. Every so often the APA leaves you a way to cheat that is well within the rules

This is my main point for thinking the rule is wrong (IMO). It's easy to keep track of timeouts so if the coach is calling timeouts when they don't have them, there is possibly an alternative motive. The other way there is no chance of funny business. I'm curious as to what about the other way that you don't like. I'm not saying you're wrong or challenging you in any way, I'm curious as to your opinion and what I'm missing.

 

[jojopiff]

Local BY-LAWS do not "trump" the team manual. At least not according to the National office. I most likely will not be able to convince anyone that this is true no matter what I say.

No need of convincing. I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't happen to agree with them having the final say, assuming you are correct. It does beg the question of why have local by-laws, if the Team Manuel trumps it anyway?

 

[Celophanewrap]

Local BY-LAWS do not "trump" the team manual. At least not according to the National office. I most likely will not be able to convince anyone that this is true no matter what I say.

I would concede that you are correct to a point. The APA does allow the LO to put into place rules that are specific to that area that are sometimes contrary to the Team Manual. For instance, a "loophole" in the National Rules is being abused, I would expect the LO to put into place a rule that would effectively close the loophole. This is done with the approval of the APA (supposedly)

 

[Skippy27]

At playoffs, COC or citywide, that's what I'm assuming he's speaking about. We just played this weekend.

You had to sit in front of the others teams table. You could not talk to your team unless someone called a coach. If the other team called a coach, you could then talk to your team. Other than that, nothing. I actually quite liked that part of it

There is not a rule in the APA that you have to sit anywhere specific and you can't be spoken to while sitting there. You may talk to anyone when it is not your turn at the table.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Ummm...that's a bit harsh. Since when has cheering become de facto loud and obnoxious? Also, if the other team asked us to stop, I would honor that.

People are so quick on this forum to attack!

Even quicker to defend, from what I've seen.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I have a question about rules during APA playoffs. My team is very vocal/supportive/fun during our matches. Before we shoot, during the match, they will chant, "LET'S GO RICH!!!" (Or whoever). Never while the other team shoots. The other teams get upset, but I think we are within the rules and not sharking.

Thoughts? Is it supposed to be absolutely silent during high level tourneys?

Does it need to be silent? No.

Should you be making loud outbursts? Definitely not. Remember that just because your player is at the table, there may be other teams playing nearby. If you burst out a loud yell "nice SHOT!!!", right at the moment someone else is pulling the trigger nearby, that could definitely be disruptive. I think anything you do in a normal speaking volume is probably fine, provided it isn't rude, swearing, attacking the other player, etc. If you yell out, that simply doesn't fit pool, a game that demands very high levels of concentration. Clapping if your guy wins the match, reasonable volume congrats, etc. are probably fine. Yelling and screaming probably isn't.

Having your whole team chanting is probably not ok. It is most assuredly going to attract attention, which by definition means it is a distraction. In our upper level tournaments, there are at least 7 tables that are all relatively close to each other in a ring. If a team was "chanting" as you described, I'm quite sure it would be annoying to some of the other teams playing nearby.

Honestly, your post does kinda come across as what a previous poster said: that you recognize it is annoying to other teams, but you want to know if the rules allow you to do it anyway. If this is at all close to the mark, then you already know the answer. Respect your opponents, and respect the other teams that have nothing to do with your match. You are no more important than any of the other teams there. Nothing wrong with cheering your guys on, maybe a wooohooo when they make a spectakular shot, grats, fist bumps, bigh fives when they win their match...those are all relatively quiet but still cool in a team pool tourney setting. Have you ever been to Vegas? Chanting for your teammate loudly enough that nearby tables can hear would not be tolerated. Let that be a good gauge.

Glad you are enjoying the league! Hope you guys win playoffs. Hope you can do it without disrupting the other matches around you.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

When Oscar asked the lady that was standing at the rail in his shot line yesterday to kindly move, was her best response to Oscar to tell him to focus more?

That lady probably wasn't a complete ass. My guess is she politely obliged.

KMRUNOUT

 

[DaveM]

We have one Captain that is famous for walking around the table when his player is between shots. He is "silently" coaching by looking at some shots loner than others. Everyone seems to tolerate it. I could care less, probably aggravates his own players.

 

[Skippy27]

This is my main point for thinking the rule is wrong (IMO). It's easy to keep track of timeouts so if the coach is calling timeouts when they don't have them, there is possibly an alternative motive. The other way there is no chance of funny business. I'm curious as to what about the other way that you don't like. I'm not saying you're wrong or challenging you in any way, I'm curious as to your opinion and what I'm missing.

This is the way I understand it and it is from an APA Rep that was at our last tournament.

During league play you are giving a lot more leniency in the coaching department in that if someone wants to give you a coach and you are out of them you simply tell them such and there is no foul. If they continue to do it, then make note on the sheet and the league office will deal with them. We never have an issue with this in our local leagues and I have played for a few years now. Generally the other team just reminds you they are out or you remind them and be done with it. That is in the spirit of APA.

During higher level tournament play if your player is at the table and you just ask them if they want a coach, you have just started the coach and have 1 min to complete it. If you have already used their coaches, they can advise you of such without penalty and the opponent can protest it to a ref if they think you are being sneaky. Chances are the first time they will be warned and then they will be penalized from there on out per the higher level rules.

I personally, even at the higher level, would go by the spirit of the rule if they had coaches left or not if the player was just looking over the table with no decisive intent. If the player was down in a shoot or noticeably changed what they were going to do I would at that point involve a ref to force the coach or to let them be warned for using too many coaches.

 

[WGDave]

Does it need to be silent? No.

Should you be making loud outbursts? Definitely not. Remember that just because your player is at the table, there may be other teams playing nearby. If you burst out a loud yell "nice SHOT!!!", right at the moment someone else is pulling the trigger nearby, that could definitely be disruptive. I think anything you do in a normal speaking volume is probably fine, provided it isn't rude, swearing, attacking the other player, etc. If you yell out, that simply doesn't fit pool, a game that demands very high levels of concentration. Clapping if your guy wins the match, reasonable volume congrats, etc. are probably fine. Yelling and screaming probably isn't.

Having your whole team chanting is probably not ok. It is most assuredly going to attract attention, which by definition means it is a distraction. In our upper level tournaments, there are at least 7 tables that are all relatively close to each other in a ring. If a team was "chanting" as you described, I'm quite sure it would be annoying to some of the other teams playing nearby.

Honestly, your post does kinda come across as what a previous poster said: that you recognize it is annoying to other teams, but you want to know if the rules allow you to do it anyway. If this is at all close to the mark, then you already know the answer. Respect your opponents, and respect the other teams that have nothing to do with your match. You are no more important than any of the other teams there. Nothing wrong with cheering your guys on, maybe a wooohooo when they make a spectakular shot, grats, fist bumps, bigh fives when they win their match...those are all relatively quiet but still cool in a team pool tourney setting. Have you ever been to Vegas? Chanting for your teammate loudly enough that nearby tables can hear would not be tolerated. Let that be a good gauge.

Glad you are enjoying the league! Hope you guys win playoffs. Hope you can do it without disrupting the other matches around you.

KMRUNOUT

Well said!

Good luck to your team, Rich.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Are you saying that APA play is of the same level?
I don't know that lady, maybe it was her best response.
Maybe it's just me, but I see these two scenarios as being completely different.
League night in the APA at the bar is slightly different than Turning Stone

League night in the bar is also slightly different than playoffs and higher level tourneys to go to Vegas, no?

Let me ask...WHY is it different? The APA has players that play at all levels. The APA constantly gets poked fun at because of the exact attitude that it "isn't real pool". That attitude is bad for pool of all levels. Teach the amateurs to disrespect the game, and what does that do for the success and popularity of pro pool? No matter your level, if you want to play *well*, pool requires a lot of concentration. Much more than many other sports that don't have stop action like pool. Golf would be a good analogy. Even amateur golfers that are drinking, gambling, maybe smoking weed...would be asked to leave a golf course if they were loudly chanting and disrupting other golfers. In golf, the transition and spectrum from amateur banger to elite pro is more continuous and consistent. And golf is very successful.

The point is, if a tiny noise distracted Oscar, a top pro player, then why wouldn't loud chanting distract an amateur player, who hasn't hardened themselves and honed their powers of concentration to that level?

I mean, I think some background music is a great idea to drown out some of the minor noises and conversation. I've been out to Vegas for a variety of team events. You will definitely hear some cheering, but you won't hear excessively loud disruptions that bleed over into other matches. I think it is a reasonable standard. Maybe you disagree.

KMRUNOUT