APA --playoffs rules question

KMRUNOUT said:
Does it need to be silent? No.

Should you be making loud outbursts? Definitely not. Remember that just because your player is at the table, there may be other teams playing nearby. If you burst out a loud yell "nice SHOT!!!", right at the moment someone else is pulling the trigger nearby, that could definitely be disruptive. I think anything you do in a normal speaking volume is probably fine, provided it isn't rude, swearing, attacking the other player, etc. If you yell out, that simply doesn't fit pool, a game that demands very high levels of concentration. Clapping if your guy wins the match, reasonable volume congrats, etc. are probably fine. Yelling and screaming probably isn't.

Having your whole team chanting is probably not ok. It is most assuredly going to attract attention, which by definition means it is a distraction. In our upper level tournaments, there are at least 7 tables that are all relatively close to each other in a ring. If a team was "chanting" as you described, I'm quite sure it would be annoying to some of the other teams playing nearby.

Honestly, your post does kinda come across as what a previous poster said: that you recognize it is annoying to other teams, but you want to know if the rules allow you to do it anyway. If this is at all close to the mark, then you already know the answer. Respect your opponents, and respect the other teams that have nothing to do with your match. You are no more important than any of the other teams there. Nothing wrong with cheering your guys on, maybe a wooohooo when they make a spectakular shot, grats, fist bumps, bigh fives when they win their match...those are all relatively quiet but still cool in a team pool tourney setting. Have you ever been to Vegas? Chanting for your teammate loudly enough that nearby tables can hear would not be tolerated. Let that be a good gauge.

Glad you are enjoying the league! Hope you guys win playoffs. Hope you can do it without disrupting the other matches around you.

KMRUNOUT
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Fair points, well intended and well taken. Our pool hall is extremly loud, but I will relay your thoughts. We are very strong and never intended to disturb anyone. It was honestly just a team having fun.
 
The thing about coaching the lower rated players is no matter what you might say or ask them to do they still have to be able to execute the plan. The greater percentage of the time they can't anyways.

I think there is some merit to a BIH for every violation, but some of the interpretation of the rules is not black and white and is left to opinion. and without a referee If you're calling a foul and as the shooter if I disagree then you're sort of at my mercy, if I don't agree, then it isn't a foul. The APA relies a lot on a players honesty or being a good sport. Too many times I've seen a lower rated player get bullied into giving up his turn at the table because the higher rated player yells "That's a foul!" then talks until the lower player is confused and just looking for a way to get away from the table.
In the time out situation it just seems simpler to me for one side to say to the other side, "Excuse me, you already used your timeout(s)".
I think the general idea behind the APA is that it remain friendly and casual, my personal hope is that we find a way to eliminate the bastards and keep it friendly, it's a bar league for god's sake
 
jojopiff said:
The question you're asking isn't necessarily what you described above. IMO, nobody is going to question or get even slightly upset if you say "Let's go Rich!!" when it's his turn to shoot. However, I could see it being quite annoying if you're chanting "Let's Go Rich" over and over and over.

And, people comparing it to other people in the bar not playing and messing with jukebox or whatever, it's different, IMO. The patrons of the bar owe me nothing and are free to do whatever they do. My opponent is given the utmost respect and I expect that from them in return. Not that this necessarily falls into disrespectful.

I also find it funny how a couple people who cheer loudly and/or obnoxiously think people who are annoyed by this are the ones "taking it too seriously".
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^^^
This. I think you perfectly captured the situation. I agree with you 100% on all points!

KMRUNOUT
 
justadub said:
Anyone is allowed to talk to anyone, unless its their turn at the table. ie once the cueball stops rolling.
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This is not true in Vegas. The way this poster describes it is exactly how it is. You have to sit next to the opposing team. Your team cannot speak a word to you at any time except during a timeout by either player. The LO's are encouraged to hold players to this standard at their LTC event (the "State Finals"...that round that advances you to Vegas).

In normal league play you can talk all you want to your player while the opponent is shooting and the balls are still rolling.

KMRUNOUT
 
Celophanewrap said:
I think that must be a local rule. In Las Vegas a couple of years ago I found that a couple of the Chicago teams played by rules a little more closely related to what you might think of as real pool that weren't APA rules. When they tried to enforce them they became angry that they were not APA rules. The whole time out issue can be a gray one. Simply calling an additional time out when you don't have one isn't a foul, I believe the manual even says just remind your opponent that they don't have any more time outs, of course I'm paraphrasing but you get the meaning. If it's a continuing thing where you have a history of always trying to get more time outs and the league office gets wind of this they could begin to call sportsmanship fouls, but something like that is at the discretion of your league office.
It's good that you'll live, I'd hate to see that epitaph - "He died from too many time outs"
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Nope, those are the national rules. If you ask your player if they want a time out, your getting marked down for a time out. If they ask you for a time out, you can refuse. That is how it is done in Vegas. Not all areas enforce this rule at the local level. In my area, once you get to the Tri-Cups, this is the rule.

KMRUNOUT
 
Celophanewrap said:
That's a consistent issue within the APA, too many different rules from place to place.

From the APA Team Manual:

General Rules 11(b)
... Mark the coachings (also called time-outs) with a 'T' to avoid confusion. In any event, taking too many coachings will not be considered a violation of the rules, although consistant attempts to take too many coachings may result in a sportsmanship violation. It is up to you to notify your opponent if he is taking a coaching he does not have coming. Disagreements are handled just as any other protest or dispute
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There is a document called "Higher Level Tournament Rules". One very dumb thing about the APA is that they do NOT include this in the Team Manual. So there is a good chance you have never seen it.

I agree with you that their consistency and rulebook need some serious work.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
This is not true in Vegas. The way this poster describes it is exactly how it is. You have to sit next to the opposing team. Your team cannot speak a word to you at any time except during a timeout by either player. The LO's are encouraged to hold players to this standard at their LTC event (the "State Finals"...that round that advances you to Vegas).

In normal league play you can talk all you want to your player while the opponent is shooting and the balls are still rolling.

KMRUNOUT
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I've played in Las Vegas several times including the last couple of years and no one has ever tried to make me sit near the opposing team or tried to keep me from speaking to my own team during a match. This is that consistency thing, your experience has been totally different than mine and in talking to our LO the National folks never try to encourage our LO to do things a certain way. The communication was more like, OK, you have XX amount of qualifying spots, make sure you get the paperwork in.
One of the things I really appreciate about our LO is that our LO doesn't make up a bunch of rules that add strange things to the already written rules and our LO treats us as adults so it's a kind of a self policing organization. We have our bad element, but they are dealt with as need be. Strict interpretation of the rules, if there is a disagreement is left to the LO and the administrative staff. We're allowed to play, if there is a problem we then involve the authority, but usually only as a last resort. I think that as a group we depend more on each other than we do the rules. The rules are there for our interpretation, it's up to us to play within them and to see that everyone around us does too.

And actually, I have a few copies of the HLT rules, they were given to us as referees and we get a new copy every year. They're given to every team that qualifies for our cities event, if I'm not mistaken they're also available on the APA website. I'm certain they can be found there around tournament time
 
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Seems to be a bit in poor taste but leagues are about fun for most people. If your doing it in anyway to get in your opponents heads or be distracting then you know you should take it easy. As far as rules are concerned I dont see the problem.
 
Skippy27 said:
There is not a rule in the APA that you have to sit anywhere specific and you can't be spoken to while sitting there. You may talk to anyone when it is not your turn at the table.
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It appears you have not been to Vegas. What you don't know, you don't know. There is very much a rule that you must sit in a certain place. This is higher level tournament rules. Not in the manual. Enforced strictly in Vegas though.

KMRUNOUT
 
Celophanewrap said:
I've played in Las Vegas several times including the last couple of years and no one has ever tried to make me sit near the opposing team or tried to keep me from speaking to my own team during a match. This is that consistency thing, your experience has been totally different than mine and in talking to our LO the National folks never try to encourage our LO to do things a certain way. The communication was more like, OK, you have XX amount of qualifying spots, make sure you get the paperwork in.
One of the things I really appreciate about our LO is that our LO doesn't make up a bunch of rules that add strange things to the already written rules and our LO treats us as adults so it's a kind of a self policing organization. We have our bad element, but they are dealt with as need be. Strict interpretation of the rules, if there is a disagreement is left to the LO and the administrative staff. We're allowed to play, if there is a problem we then involve the authority, but usually only as a last resort. I think that as a group we depend more on each other than we do the rules. The rules are there for our interpretation, it's up to us to play within them and to see that everyone around us does too.

And actually, I have a few copies of the HLT rules, they were given to us as referees and we get a new copy every year. They're given to every team that qualifies for our cities event, if I'm not mistaken they're also available on the APA website. I'm certain they can be found there around tournament time
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Good stuff. I definitely should have a copy of those HLT rules in my APA folder. I play in 2 league areas...I'm right on the border. That is cool about your LO...one of mine does indeed kinda treat the players like children.

Kinda weird about Vegas. I was there every year for the past 5 or so. This last year at the new Westgate venue, I specifically asked the refs about the seating, because I couldn't figure out why each player was sitting next to the opposite team. The team from NH that won the Nationals in 9 ball plays in my division. I talked all about it with all of them. They said they were told to sit that way. They definitely were in the 9 ball finals. But they also were in the very first round of the 8 ball. Now I'm kinda curious what the official deal is lol.

Anyway thanks for the info!

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Good stuff. I definitely should have a copy of those HLT rules in my APA folder. I play in 2 league areas...I'm right on the border. That is cool about your LO...one of mine does indeed kinda treat the players like children.

Kinda weird about Vegas. I was there every year for the past 5 or so. This last year at the new Westgate venue, I specifically asked the refs about the seating, because I couldn't figure out why each player was sitting next to the opposite team. The team from NH that won the Nationals in 9 ball plays in my division. I talked all about it with all of them. They said they were told to sit that way. They definitely were in the 9 ball finals. But they also were in the very first round of the 8 ball. Now I'm kinda curious what the official deal is lol.

Anyway thanks for the info!

KMRUNOUT
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i went to the 2013 8 ball team nationals....during the match the 2 players sat in chairs at the opposite end of the pool table from their teams during their match. the same seating arrangement is in force during our local ltc finals with the lo standing there observing the matches..

in our 9 ball ltc finals the same seating rule is in effect but our lo racks every rack personally using the magic rack.

during all other ltc matches and tri cups our lo and the div reps are constantly roaming to ensure every one is minding their p's and q's.

playoffs are treated more or less like an average league night .
 
Everyone has the right to have Fun and a Good Time. However when someone else's Idea of a Good Time starts to take away from a majority of others then maybe that needs to be looked at more closely.

The original poster did state that they only did it during their players turn at the table, which in it's self is fine. But, the flip side is that this activity could prove disruptive to others in the Venue who are also competing in their matches.

I would say as with anything or anyone else just be mindful and respectful of others.

Black Cat :cool:
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Good stuff. I definitely should have a copy of those HLT rules in my APA folder. I play in 2 league areas...I'm right on the border. That is cool about your LO...one of mine does indeed kinda treat the players like children.

Kinda weird about Vegas. I was there every year for the past 5 or so. This last year at the new Westgate venue, I specifically asked the refs about the seating, because I couldn't figure out why each player was sitting next to the opposite team. The team from NH that won the Nationals in 9 ball plays in my division. I talked all about it with all of them. They said they were told to sit that way. They definitely were in the 9 ball finals. But they also were in the very first round of the 8 ball. Now I'm kinda curious what the official deal is lol.

Anyway thanks for the info!

KMRUNOUT
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I think it's likely that if pose the same question to 10 different referees you might get 6 or 7 different answers. Some of those referees are very angry people and some are cool and easy to work with. I met a team a couple of years ago that had a ref following them around on his off time, not an assigned watcher but an off duty ref and he would go to the referee shift supervisor and ask to have some of their S/L's changed, he wanted them watched at every match, he was on like a religious quest. In The APA I'm sure you know that they have a test for people that want to referee at the national level, they should also have a personality evaluation, some of those referees have control issues, and I've heard that from other referees. I think that some want so bad to make a difference that will do whatever they have to do to be noticed. I think the referee can follow the letter of the law and try to control every aspect of the match or he can let the players play. My thought is that the best referees are never noticed. As a referee I have seen very little that the teams and captains couldn't work out on their own.
I think when you get to the finals, or when your matches move into that other room at the Westgate where they held the final 7 or 8 matches it was sort of set up that way with the teams so far away from each other. During the early rounds you're sitting right there on top of each other, it can be a little awkward to move around much at all. I felt kinda bad for the Japanese team, when they played in the final rounds the seats were so far from the table I got the feeling they thought they were shouting and were embarrassed by it
 
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