APA Question -- What do you think? Not a sandbagging issue!

Skess said:
I've been coaching teams for 10 years now. And it took me awhile to find a style that I can use with just about anyone.

When I go to the table, I first ask the player what they were thinking. That usually gives me a pretty good idea of where their head is. From there, I either offer support/tips toward their idea or offer an alternative that's within their ability. In the end, I leave the shot choice up to them.

The thing about coaching that can be frustrating is that everybody will get something different out of it.

I have players that are career 3/4's in league play and will not recognize the same shot 2 games in a row. And they'll give you a look after a failed shot because you told them something in a TO. What they don't realize is that they didn't actually hit the shot we talked about. Then I have other players that go up 1 or 2 speeds very quickly because they listen/absorb what you give them and get better because of it.

I try not to be too intrusive with TO's, mainly calling them when I see a game about to be decided with a shot or safe. It really comes down to the person who's shooting.
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TAP! TAP! :D
 
cuetechasaurus said:
It doesn't hurt to quiz them when you call a timeout. Ask them first what they think is the correct shot, and politely tell them why that's wrong (if they are) and why the shot you are showing them is right.
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Exactly. That is how I always start off when coaching someone. By asking them what they are thinking and why. If I think there are other options, I will provide them the options and then ask them if they are comfortable in trying one of the other options. At the end of the coaching I tell them to do whatever they are most comfortable with.

Generally, they attempt one of the options that I have explained because they trust my suggestion. However, if they are not comfortable or committed to executing one of my suggestions, there isn't a lot of reason to shoot it because they will probably not be successful.
 
Skess said:
I've been coaching teams for 10 years now. And it took me awhile to find a style that I can use with just about anyone.

When I go to the table, I first ask the player what they were thinking. That usually gives me a pretty good idea of where their head is. From there, I either offer support/tips toward their idea or offer an alternative that's within their ability. In the end, I leave the shot choice up to them.
The thing about coaching that can be frustrating is that everybody will get something different out of it.

I have players that are career 3/4's in league play and will not recognize the same shot 2 games in a row. And they'll give you a look after a failed shot because you told them something in a TO. What they don't realize is that they didn't actually hit the shot we talked about. Then I have other players that go up 1 or 2 speeds very quickly because they listen/absorb what you give them and get better because of it.

I try not to be too intrusive with TO's, mainly calling them when I see a game about to be decided with a shot or safe. It really comes down to the person who's shooting.
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This is exactly how course management skills are taught in Golf...You actually go out on the course with them and play a round and follow the proceedure you list above....I would imagine that in Pool shot selection goes right in line with table management.

MOST people like to make thier own decisions and reject being told what to do...

When you give them "other options" to thier own plan, you give them the choice to play within thier means...They may still make the wrong decision, but they will also see the results of thier wrong decision and opt for a different better plan next time...usually yours......However some times they surprise you and pull off the "low odds" shot..:D
 
teach them to fish...

The best coaching I've done hasn't been during one of my player's games. It has been sitting with one of my players watching someone one else play. Discussing shot strategy, position play, quizing them, and ultimately leading them down the path of enlightenment until they reach the point that the light starts to go on for them.
You might have the best stroke in the universe but if you can't creatively envision the shot, the run, the game and the match, it is not going to do a whole lot for you.
Show someone the correct shot...you are giving him a fish.
Get someone to envision the correct shot(s)...you are teaching him to fish.
By the way.
It is far better to be the fisher than the fish...I have been both.
 
Frankincali,

I don't think it's a good idea to not call a time out when you know it's needed. Most players will not realize that they did the wrong thing and will approch the next similiar situation with the same additude, thus gaining nothing from the experience.

It's important to keep the instructions for the lower level players simple.

From my experience too much info will only confuse them. At this point it's not neccessary for them to fully understand the why of the shot. After they play you may try to explain the "why".

I have found that many times during the time out they acknowledge that they understand, then after they perform you realize that they misunderstood (probably too much info).

I think that you and the player owe it to the team to try and do the correct thing for the win.

You can go into more depth with the upper level players to use your info as a teaching aid.

If however our teams happen to play each other then maybe you shouldn't call any time outs.
 
dabarbr said:
Frankincali,

I don't think it's a good idea to not call a time out when you know it's needed. Most players will not realize that they did the wrong thing and will approch the next similiar situation with the same additude, thus gaining nothing from the experience.

It's important to keep the instructions for the lower level players simple.

From my experience too much info will only confuse them. At this point it's not neccessary for them to fully understand the why of the shot. After they play you may try to explain the "why".

I have found that many times during the time out they acknowledge that they understand, then after they perform you realize that they misunderstood (probably too much info).

I think that you and the player owe it to the team to try and do the correct thing for the win.

You can go into more depth with the upper level players to use your info as a teaching aid.

If however our teams happen to play each other then maybe you shouldn't call any time outs.
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Thanks for the reply
I was going to ask you about this subject the next time I saw you.

I agree with everything you said above. Thats the reason that I have and you have done very well in APA league play. My problem has been that as of lately I have players that are rated above their normal level of play. Not their normal APA match level but rather their actual level of play.
If I am helping them during matches that can be of great benefit and thus raise their SL number. Biggest problem is that in the APA format only the best of the last "x" amount of matches count. Timeouts and good situations for meaningful timeouts just dont come up every game. Therefore only the meaningful ones seem to make it to the SL.

I have no problem in helping any player and will do it whether they are on my team or not. I honestly dont care if the team has to break up eventually or make a couple of changes. If I am that change then thats fine.
As of right now I am not a huge fan of our APA area but still want to play pool with my buddies. A couple of newbies have caught my attention and I enjoy trying to help them and watching their progress.
I just believe that with a little more effort some of the issues could be resolved.

If you ever want to play a little one hole or nine ball I would be glad to let you whoop up on me. I am going to try and play a little more frequently
over the summer.

Thanks again
Frank
 
Catahula said:
The best coaching I've done hasn't been during one of my player's games. It has been sitting with one of my players watching someone one else play. Discussing shot strategy, position play, quizing them, and ultimately leading them down the path of enlightenment until they reach the point that the light starts to go on for them.
You might have the best stroke in the universe but if you can't creatively envision the shot, the run, the game and the match, it is not going to do a whole lot for you.
Show someone the correct shot...you are giving him a fish.
Get someone to envision the correct shot(s)...you are teaching him to fish.
By the way.
It is far better to be the fisher than the fish...I have been both.
Click to expand...



I agree that its much better to be able to TEACH someone and to have them LEARN what you are sharing but during a match the teams job as well as the players job is to win.
I feel that one of my main strengths as a coach is in APA pool. For whatever reason I have a good understanding of APA pool and whats need and when its needed to win. Game time coaching can literally be the difference between advancing along in the APA process and not.
Many times I see other teams that should be helping their players simply appear oblivious to the situation and they lose.

My main issue in this thread was as to whether coaching can actually hurt a player by raising his/her SL past their normal thinking and game playing ability. Afterall the APA sl is just a guess at how anyone actually plays.
 
frankncali said:
Poet

What I mean is that if I call a time out or tell the player something on the sideline before they shoot and then they execute it then in reality its not them doing the thinking. The SL is based on what their "normal game" is
supposed to be. Without the timeout they might have had an extra couple of innings or lost a match/game. That effects their SL.

If you have ever played APA pool then you know that many people make the same mistakes over and over. They just dont see what to do.

I believe that I have some players that are rated higher than what their normal level is simply due to coaching and helping with strategy between shots.


I agree with your assessment of why many TOs dont work but would add that most of the shots that the player would be attempting without the TO would not work either. Now because a TO has been called you are the
scapegoat.
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My personal sense is that the handicap system more or less reflects the person's level of play at that particular time, with that particular team, and so what if the coaching is a part of it. It's not as if the tean captain or coach is going to vanish during the playoffs or anything like that. lol!

You hit on a great subject because whether to stop a player or not is a tough decision and I would agree with just about all the responses. You're a hero when it works or a goat when it doesn't. You can stop a player at the right time, ask the right questions, give the right advice, do everything right , and still have a bad result. That's pool! lol
 
Da Poet said:
My personal sense is that the handicap system more or less reflects the person's level of play at that particular time, with that particular team, and so what if the coaching is a part of it. It's not as if the tean captain or coach is going to vanish during the playoffs or anything like that. lol!

You hit on a great subject because whether to stop a player or not is a tough decision and I would agree with just about all the responses. You're a hero when it works or a goat when it doesn't. You can stop a player at the right time, ask the right questions, give the right advice, do everything right , and still have a bad result. That's pool! lol
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Hero or goat is exactly right. I love when a player says "that was a good timeout!". As if all the others were bad :D

While a coach may not vanish I think its tough for a player that is one SL higher to give up a complete game to another player. If playing even then the coaching could and would make a difference. However now the player and the coach are backed up against a wall.
Biggest thing is that I think the player comes to rely on the help instead of learning and figuring out when to do what.
 
u have a point but i don't think it really matters, shot by shot advice is only gonna work a certain % of the time, depending on the player/shot/coach, i think over time things will average out but if they are lower level sl's then they are gonna have a natural learning curve(that u are also increasing) that maybe you're not factoring in

even if it does hurt them or the team i'd look at it as a oppurtunity cost as long as u get something out of coaching, i have had some success in coaching pool and other sports and when u can be a part of someone else's triumphs it can be just as good if not better than winning yourself
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I found myself in a hopeless situation with an apa 8 ball team that had great potential.....but nobody would listen.

I was sl7 and a 5 was the next highest sl on team.When ever one would call a timeout i would always ask for their thoughts first followed by a risk reward type of answer. problem was all of my team mates were "bar players" and thought they allready knew everything at a sl3. After 1 session nothing had changed and i refused to coach all but one player on team. He went from a deuce to a strong 5 in 3 sessions.

He listened . It showed in the fact that he would run into situations that had allready come up and make the right decision. if he missed a shot or got bad position from a shot that i had suggested from a timeout he would allways come back to the table analizing the shot and what went wrong.
 
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