APA Racking Question

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sup gents,

I was playing last night and the guy I played was giving me bad racks; whether on purpose or accident I don't know but, after the 2nd rack I started to inspect and ask for re-racks. After 5 re-racks I said forget it and moved to second ball break to try to mitigate the bad rack but it didn't help.

So, basically, is there any rule where you can rack your own and have the opponent inspect it and give it an okay? After leagues last night I went out with a few people who really know how to play and my B&R rate went up alot because they know how to rack properly.

I'm not against earning a win but to have 10 innings per game because the break ends up looking more like straight pool then 8-ball kinda bugs me. Plus, there's no 3-foul otherwise my opponent would have lost swiftly instead of things being dragged out forever.

Just asking :)

-Richard
 
I have had some good stories about APA.

I was asking players if they wanted to bet $20 on the set, and sure enough somebody turned me in.

I always ask if they want to flip instead lagging, its quicker, but most say, "No, I like to lag" , and they almost always lose.

I always ask if we can just "point" instead of marking pockets and its about 50/50 that they will do it....

League players :rolleyes:

Ken
 
Yeah,

You'd think it wouldn't be much of a problem because most players and teams don't object to calling your pocket instead of marking, etc. but racking seems to be one of those especially touchy subjects and I can understand why.

My gut feeling is that this happens on purpose as I am one of the strongest players in the league (not that I'm especially strong, by the way!) and since I started in Feb a lot of people complain about my age (21) and there's an interesting split where people love me, people want to abuse my skill and age, or people are jealous and hate playing me and they complain up a storm.

I'll have to talk to my LO and see what he says about it.
 
ctyhntr said:
Playing APA, in the past as long as both team captains don't object, and the players agree some protocols can be waived (such as marking the pocket). I don't see why not in this situation (rack your own).

Here is a link to the APA team manual
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=188042
Click to expand...

Agreed. While the rule calls for the game loser to rack the next game, the players can certainly make the "gentlemans" agreement to rack their own,
but every now and then you run into a "rule monger", "MARK YOUR POCKET" "IS THAT A TIME OUT?", YOU CAN'T MARK WITH MONEY OR CHALK".....
I love it when they're wrong
 
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Celophanewrap said:
Agreed. While the rule calls for the game loser to rack the next game, the players can certainly make the "gentlemans" agreement to rack their own,
but every now and then you run into a "rule monger", "MARK YOUR POCKET" "IS THAT A TIME OUT?", YOU CAN'T MARK WITH MONEY OR CHALK".....
I love it when they're wrong
Click to expand...

Indeed.

I have had people who, upon me winning while I was on the hill, tried to call me out and accused me of illegally marking my pocket because I typically use my wallet... which apparently counts as "money." In which case I opened it, exposed the inside and said "What money?" hahaha
 
Ken_4fun said:
I have had some good stories about APA.

I was asking players if they wanted to bet $20 on the set, and sure enough somebody turned me in.

I always ask if they want to flip instead lagging, its quicker, but most say, "No, I like to lag" , and they almost always lose.

I always ask if we can just "point" instead of marking pockets and its about 50/50 that they will do it....

League players :rolleyes:

Ken
Click to expand...

I think the funniest thing about your post is you want to flip instead of lag it's quicker. Haha it takes 30 seconds to lag! How much of a hurry are you in? Or maybe you rather count on luck because your not good at the lag. Hahaha thanks for the laugh.
 
Skippy27 said:
Clowns that don't want to follow rules. :slap:
Click to expand...

You got me....:thumbup:

I think the funniest thing about your post is you want to flip instead of lag it's quicker. Haha it takes 30 seconds to lag! How much of a hurry are you in? Or maybe you rather count on luck because your not good at the lag. Hahaha thanks for the laugh.

You got me...:sorry:

Ken
 
Zphix said:
Yeah,

You'd think it wouldn't be much of a problem because most players and teams don't object to calling your pocket instead of marking, etc. but racking seems to be one of those especially touchy subjects and I can understand why.

My gut feeling is that this happens on purpose as I am one of the strongest players in the league (not that I'm especially strong, by the way!) and since I started in Feb a lot of people complain about my age (21) and there's an interesting split where people love me, people want to abuse my skill and age, or people are jealous and hate playing me and they complain up a storm.

I'll have to talk to my LO and see what he says about it.
Click to expand...

Before I come across as being negative let me make this comment. You say you are 21 and already one of the stronger players in your league ? Well I admire your dedication to learning the game and progressing as far as you have at such a young age.

Yes it is kind of hit or miss when you have you opponent rack in for you. You made your opponent rerack 5 times huh ? Let me make a suggestion here. Lighten up or quit leagues and just pls rack your own tournaments .you are coming across as too serious about your game in a league filled with low level players that just want to have fun playing pool.

Now I am not saying you are wrong in your beliefs but it does not fit in with the more social playing crowd and thus the negativity displayed towards you.

I never inspect racks before I break...except at playoffs or higher level tournaments. As a result I do get slug racks occasionally but I believe the better player always wins.

One night playing 8 ball I made a break and run the first rack. I broke and ran the 2 ND rack all the way to my last ball where I dogged it trying to get shape on the 8. Still won that rack. I scratched in the left side pocket the next 2 racks on the break but still won both. I broke from the same spot and the same speed all 4 racks. Do I believe there was son rack rigging going on the last 2 racks? You betcha but I still won.

Here is another situation.

My team mate is a 5 and playing 9 ball. He made 4 9 on the snaps in a row..

1. The 9 plus 4 balls
2. The 9 plus 3 balls
3. The 9 plus 3 balls
4. The 9 plus one ball

Guess who was racking ? A 2 lol .

Again I say lighten up and save the rack checking for when it really matters and I believe you will see a change in your opponents attitude..
 
Skippy27 said:
Clowns that don't want to follow rules. :slap:
Click to expand...

And clowns that use the rules to their advantage ....inappropriately.

Last wed during an 8 ball match my 6 faced another 6 and it was hill-hill. Their 6 rattled the pocket on the 8 and left it hanging. My 6 runs 3 balls.....nods toward the corner pocket where the 8 is hanging and pockets the 8. He then walks over to his opponent to shake his hand. His opponent refuses the hand shake and says my player lost because he did not mark the pocket. My player did not say anything and just turned around and walked back to our table.

Believe me when I say that i said plenty. 1st thing I said was that it was a bs call. I get the lame response that its the rule. I replied I know its the rule but neither player marked the pocket the entire match. He replies my player failed to call the pocket also. I said you were not paying attention and that it was an obvious shot. Their captain responds....he could have been going 3 rails for all we know. I dropped it and marked a loss because I saw it was not going anywhere.

You think that was drama ? Nah...here is where the real drama starts lol.

Come the 4th match their captain comes up to me with cue in hand and states he is playing the 4 th 9 ball match and needs a replay on the 5th matches and wants his 6 to replay the 5yh 9 ball match. Yea the same 6 who called the bs call I. The 1st 8 ball match. I dont reply but am thinking...wtf ?

I debate the situation on my head and am thinking it goes against my good nature and great sportsmanship I hold myself to but I am going to make them forfeit the last 8 and 9 ball matches.

Being the good sport i am I dont say anything to their captain while he is playing his match. When his match is over their 6 goes immediately to the table to lag. I say you are not playing the last match. He asks...who is ? I Sa no one cause you are forfeiting the past 8 and 9 ball matches.

Believe me when I say that you aint never seen a bunch of grown men whine....***** ...moan and cry like several players on the opposing team did. Mostly just from 2 players....their captain did not say anything but he sure got on the phone to the lo real quick .another player ran and got the division rep.

It was as a pretty long conversation and got heated for a little bit but below is the crux of the conversation .

Them. Why are you making us forfeit ?
Me. Because of that bs call in the 1st match.
Them. He was as going by the rules
Me. I am going by the rules.
Them. But you have the option to let us play.
Me....yea but he had the option of not making that bs call
Them..i thought we were all friends...you aint never done this before
Me ...we are friends and I dont like doing this but I aint playing mr. Nice guy and letting my team get screwed here.

My lo txts me and asks my side of the story. He then replies be would have done the same thing.

Thankfully this crap is rare in my area.
 
Usually a 9 on the snap is the result of an not so perfect rack^^

But in regards to the OP, it depends on your opponent...if you're playing anyone a 6 and above, I'll sure as shit ask for a rerack, they should know how to give a good rack. I personally always give my best rack even if it takes a minute, I believe it's how the game should be played. If my opponent breaks n runs its a job well done and I hope they do it again. I usually don't get that favor returned but hey, they can't all be prom queens.
 
Like others have said, I'm pretty sure that its technically against the rules to rack your own, but if both players agree it should probly be ok. Until playoffs and cities/states, etc.

Asking your LO is certainly a good idea.

Another thing you might try is asking the other teams captain if someone else on their team might be able to get a better rack for you if one certain player struggles with racking. We've had more experienced players rack for beginners on their own team before....again, probly against the rules but less likely to get the rules lawyers as wound up.

I understand your frustration. There are certain players in my league that dont put much effort into the rack, whereas I'm embarrassed when one of my racks are bad so I make sure they are good. Fortunately for me, I like a messy table cuz those types of players aren't very patient and go for shots they shouldn't, which gives me a much better opportunity to win.
 
lorider said:
And clowns that use the rules to their advantage ....inappropriately.

Last wed during an 8 ball match my 6 faced another 6 and it was hill-hill. Their 6 rattled the pocket on the 8 and left it hanging. My 6 runs 3 balls.....nods toward the corner pocket where the 8 is hanging and pockets the 8. He then walks over to his opponent to shake his hand. His opponent refuses the hand shake and says my player lost because he did not mark the pocket. My player did not say anything and just turned around and walked back to our table.

Believe me when I say that i said plenty. 1st thing I said was that it was a bs call. I get the lame response that its the rule. I replied I know its the rule but neither player marked the pocket the entire match. He replies my player failed to call the pocket also. I said you were not paying attention and that it was an obvious shot. Their captain responds....he could have been going 3 rails for all we know. I dropped it and marked a loss because I saw it was not going anywhere.

You think that was drama ? Nah...here is where the real drama starts lol.

Come the 4th match their captain comes up to me with cue in hand and states he is playing the 4 th 9 ball match and needs a replay on the 5th matches and wants his 6 to replay the 5yh 9 ball match. Yea the same 6 who called the bs call I. The 1st 8 ball match. I dont reply but am thinking...wtf ?

I debate the situation on my head and am thinking it goes against my good nature and great sportsmanship I hold myself to but I am going to make them forfeit the last 8 and 9 ball matches.

Being the good sport i am I dont say anything to their captain while he is playing his match. When his match is over their 6 goes immediately to the table to lag. I say you are not playing the last match. He asks...who is ? I Sa no one cause you are forfeiting the past 8 and 9 ball matches.

Believe me when I say that you aint never seen a bunch of grown men whine....***** ...moan and cry like several players on the opposing team did. Mostly just from 2 players....their captain did not say anything but he sure got on the phone to the lo real quick .another player ran and got the division rep.

It was as a pretty long conversation and got heated for a little bit but below is the crux of the conversation .

Them. Why are you making us forfeit ?
Me. Because of that bs call in the 1st match.
Them. He was as going by the rules
Me. I am going by the rules.
Them. But you have the option to let us play.
Me....yea but he had the option of not making that bs call
Them..i thought we were all friends...you aint never done this before
Me ...we are friends and I dont like doing this but I aint playing mr. Nice guy and letting my team get screwed here.

My lo txts me and asks my side of the story. He then replies be would have done the same thing.

Thankfully this crap is rare in my area.
Click to expand...

Ya did right.

Ken
 
I inspect every rack, whether it's a tourney, league, or playing at home with friends. If I break bad, I want to know it was me and not the rack.

Plus, I won't shoot until the rack is correct. Only happened once, the guy didn't even try to "slug" the rack, which I consider a rack that is slighlty off, he gave me a rack that not more than a few balls were touching one another.

I said, you're kidding, right? And he said "what"? You can't rack like that? He said It's my rack and I can rack how I like. I said if we are going to cheat, then I can cheat too. I broke them and left my cue on the table to steer a few balls into the hole.

He said you can't do that. I said, do what. He said the balls touched your cue. I said no way, I would never do something so sneaky and underhanded to try and win a pool game, what kind of complete loser and idiot to you think I am ?? Plus, I said the call goes to the shooter, I"m the shooter, now sit down and shut up while I run this rack, which I guarantee I will ;)

He got my point, and he re-racked.

His entire team was eventually booted from the league from pulling every stupid thing under the sun, to causing fights, to not paying league fee's, ran out on a few bar tabs, you name it.
 
I think usually folks try to give you a good rack but on the valleys sometimes it can be near impossible to get the rack you want. You get tables with pits, rotten cloth, tables that are not even close to level, so it can become tedious waiting for a tight rack to happen. I figure that they have to play from the same rack, if I break bad it's bad for them too, so I'll go ahead and break. I think that sometimes there's just not much you can do about it.

...and in reference to an earlier post, to be clear, I know some players get mad if you mark your pocket with money, including a wallet or your lucky silver dollar and some local rules may indicate as much, however, as far as the APA is concerned marking with money or even chalk is perfectly acceptable. Frequently if my opponent is demanding that I mark my pocket I'll just reach into my pocket and grab the first object, wallet, quarter, keys, pen, or whatever. What is the purpose of marking your pocket anyway? To identify the pocket you want to put the 8 ball in. If I put an object near that pocket or if I clearly indicate my intention to put the 8 in specific pocket I don't see why there would be a problem.
My first question to my opponent would be, "Did you have any question about where I intended to put the 8?"
In lo's situation, what the opponent did was a real dick move. After that, if those guy so much as farted in the wrong direction and I thought it was a violation I call a foul.
 
First problem, is playing apa, its a joke. Quit it and haven't looked back.

But no you have to rack for each other, and only rule is as tight as possible. If its as tight as possible, its a legal rack, even with gaps. Bare in mind that the balls, felt, table, rack, and wear and tear all play a factor in how the balls rack, so it may not be the racker.

Politely ask for a re-rack, if they do then great, if they refuse and its as tight as they could get it, then you will have to adjust your break to figure out the best way to win.

In my experience either hit it head on hard or play it soft enough to get 4 balls to a rail and play strategy. Most of the players that do not rack great are lower ranks, once the balls arent spreading, it gives higher ranks a huge advantage because we know how to maneuver. They will eventually try and make it tight as possible to give them a chance. I personally will read the gaps and ensure myself a ball made and a chance on the lowest number, but this takes a lot of time to learn, and a lot of practice. I am still learning.
 
Oh another way, purchase a magic rack. Ask other team if they would agree to using it for all matches that night to insure everyone gets a good solid rack. If other team agrees, then no complaints.
 
Read through the responses.

Again, I'm not saying I'm a fantastic player or anything like that; the fact that I'm one of the strongest players in the league isn't because I'm exceptional (sure, I'm above average) but because the sample population is relatively small.

That being said, I'm only ever thrown against 6s and 7s and I believe they should know how to give you a good rack and the table condition, in this case, doesn't apply because I was able to rack them perfectly tight by taking an extra 15 seconds to be thorough.

Also agree that in most matches the better play typically wins and I believe that to be true but it's not fun for me to spend 10 innings playing safeties either. I'm not super serious about leagues and that's why this bugs me; I'm out to have fun and being shag racked isn't what I call fun.
 
Ok. I have played in a APA league for a couple years now. I enjoy it but I don't agree with a lot of the rules They have in place. And your opponent racking for your break is one of them. We have many people that will intentionally try to give you a lose rack. And then they get all offended when you look at it or asked for a rerack. All this nonsense could be avoided by rack your own break. And not having to call pockets on the shots just invites bangers to play their game.
 
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