Loun said:
You misunderstand, I was not addressing you. I was just making a general statement. I know you have not been that way.
APA Rankings
- Thread starter Coop1701
- Start date
You misunderstand, I was not addressing you. I was just making a general statement. I know you have not been that way.
That is not what I agreed to sir, I merely agreed that I prefer no rating system. I in no way meant that I like nothing about any rating system. There is a big difference.
Inyour situation( and your 4s as well) I think its easy to see the two
different directions to take.
1- the player can worry about the rating and then lose and complain
about the ratings. Its the easiest way and the way most APA players
take IMO.
2- Ask a good player why you are losing? Ask a known very good player to
watch a match and tell you afterwards some tips and mistakes made.
Show a little respect and most will want to help. You might buy them
a drink or two for the advice.
Many players ONLY think that they lose due to ratings. That is as far from the truth as possible. Players that continue to lose or lose the BIG ONE
do so beause they ahve not taken the right angles to learn how to win.
Contrary to popular APA player belief there IS a lot of knowledge that seperates a low rated player and a high one. Its not all natural ability or
ball making ability. Especially in 8-ball league play.
Find you a good player and listen and ask questions and try to understand
HOW to win. Its not as much about breaking and running as most think.
different directions to take.
1- the player can worry about the rating and then lose and complain
about the ratings. Its the easiest way and the way most APA players
take IMO.
2- Ask a good player why you are losing? Ask a known very good player to
watch a match and tell you afterwards some tips and mistakes made.
Show a little respect and most will want to help. You might buy them
a drink or two for the advice.
Many players ONLY think that they lose due to ratings. That is as far from the truth as possible. Players that continue to lose or lose the BIG ONE
do so beause they ahve not taken the right angles to learn how to win.
Contrary to popular APA player belief there IS a lot of knowledge that seperates a low rated player and a high one. Its not all natural ability or
ball making ability. Especially in 8-ball league play.
Find you a good player and listen and ask questions and try to understand
HOW to win. Its not as much about breaking and running as most think.
Loun said:
------------------------------
Many of the other issues you've raised is also already addressed in the system.
------------------------------
Thats just it im here trying to learn the system to figure out how it works and what it tries to make up for. However watching these guys play every day and then seeing them play on league night... something doesnt match up
------------------------------
As with any handicapping system, more knowledge of it, increases the ability to cheat it. As a result, no player knows all the specifics of the system.
------------------------------
I undertand but I want to know as much as possible lol I lose sleep at night when I cant figure something out. I understand the integrity of the system is based on people not knowing the full details so they cant effectively cheat at it but man there are a lot of people already trying and it kills me because all I want to do is make sense of whats been happening. Right now I want to at least try to figure out this "max innings based on S/L# that someone mentioned" thing. If you are an s/l 3 how many innings are you expected to take and so on up the levels. I think if i dig hard enough I will be able to put a lot of it together, at least so i can make some senes of things and be able to sleep some.
------------------------------
This conversation calls for a reference to the Serenity prayer
------------------------------
Let us pray...
------------------------------
I know you have not been that way.
------------------------------
Thank you, im new her which means I still care what people think about me
------------------------------
Find you a good player and listen and ask questions and try to understand
HOW to win. Its not as much about breaking and running as most think.
------------------------------
This part I luck out with. The club I play out of is full of great shooters and great players. Most of which are old school and perhaps their eyesight is going and they just arent sharp like they used to be, but they have soo much knowledge of the game. They work with me almost every day that I play in one way or another. Whether its them threatening to not talk to me anymore if I start plowing, or start playing with the butt of the stick. Or them making me draw the whole length of the table because they think its funny watching me punch myself in the ribs doing it (btw i have no clue how i keep punching myself in the ribs when i draw hard.. they wont tell me because they laugh when i do it... so if any of you know please tell me) Also as far as there being more to it than being able to break and run... most definitely, I starting to know when to make a few and then play a safety to swap the pressure onto my opponent and or let them have to break up a pack instead of me. I've mentioned the difference in my mind between a 4 and a 5 is 5's have to play a smarter game, thinking 3 4 5 balls ahead, being able to make a break shot or knowing when to play safe and let the opponent have to break up the cluster instead.
Im striving to get better, im putting in the time and im definitely not afraid to ask for help from anyone (even those 2 3 and 4 players as they might have something they know and just arent able to execute)
ok back to the apa...
tonight was the first match of the playoffs. My division has 3 and a wildcard. We played the 2/3 place team we were tied with for 2/3... it was a great match... we put up first out 5 against their 4 (their 4 won 3 straight in 16 innings) then they put up 4 vs our 4 (1 -3 in 15 innings) then we put up our 5 vs their 6 (4 - 2 in 13 innings our 5 lhad a very good night) they put up a 5 we threw low with a 3 (their 5 won 4 - 0 in 22 innings) so we were tied 2 2 and they put me up so a 5 vs their 4 (we went 4 - 1 in 11 innings 1 s8 a piece lol)
Tonight it was a fairly even matchup but its because one of our 5's played the best he ever played in the league. I think in the end as far as teams go it eventually evens out throughout a complete match BUT individually you can see where the apa rating system isnt that accurate.
Many of the other issues you've raised is also already addressed in the system.
------------------------------
Thats just it im here trying to learn the system to figure out how it works and what it tries to make up for. However watching these guys play every day and then seeing them play on league night... something doesnt match up
------------------------------
As with any handicapping system, more knowledge of it, increases the ability to cheat it. As a result, no player knows all the specifics of the system.
------------------------------
I undertand but I want to know as much as possible lol I lose sleep at night when I cant figure something out. I understand the integrity of the system is based on people not knowing the full details so they cant effectively cheat at it but man there are a lot of people already trying and it kills me because all I want to do is make sense of whats been happening. Right now I want to at least try to figure out this "max innings based on S/L# that someone mentioned" thing. If you are an s/l 3 how many innings are you expected to take and so on up the levels. I think if i dig hard enough I will be able to put a lot of it together, at least so i can make some senes of things and be able to sleep some.
------------------------------
This conversation calls for a reference to the Serenity prayer
------------------------------
Let us pray...
------------------------------
I know you have not been that way.
------------------------------
Thank you, im new her which means I still care what people think about me
------------------------------
Find you a good player and listen and ask questions and try to understand
HOW to win. Its not as much about breaking and running as most think.
------------------------------
This part I luck out with. The club I play out of is full of great shooters and great players. Most of which are old school and perhaps their eyesight is going and they just arent sharp like they used to be, but they have soo much knowledge of the game. They work with me almost every day that I play in one way or another. Whether its them threatening to not talk to me anymore if I start plowing, or start playing with the butt of the stick. Or them making me draw the whole length of the table because they think its funny watching me punch myself in the ribs doing it (btw i have no clue how i keep punching myself in the ribs when i draw hard.. they wont tell me because they laugh when i do it... so if any of you know please tell me) Also as far as there being more to it than being able to break and run... most definitely, I starting to know when to make a few and then play a safety to swap the pressure onto my opponent and or let them have to break up a pack instead of me. I've mentioned the difference in my mind between a 4 and a 5 is 5's have to play a smarter game, thinking 3 4 5 balls ahead, being able to make a break shot or knowing when to play safe and let the opponent have to break up the cluster instead.
Im striving to get better, im putting in the time and im definitely not afraid to ask for help from anyone (even those 2 3 and 4 players as they might have something they know and just arent able to execute)
ok back to the apa...
tonight was the first match of the playoffs. My division has 3 and a wildcard. We played the 2/3 place team we were tied with for 2/3... it was a great match... we put up first out 5 against their 4 (their 4 won 3 straight in 16 innings) then they put up 4 vs our 4 (1 -3 in 15 innings) then we put up our 5 vs their 6 (4 - 2 in 13 innings our 5 lhad a very good night) they put up a 5 we threw low with a 3 (their 5 won 4 - 0 in 22 innings) so we were tied 2 2 and they put me up so a 5 vs their 4 (we went 4 - 1 in 11 innings 1 s8 a piece lol)
Tonight it was a fairly even matchup but its because one of our 5's played the best he ever played in the league. I think in the end as far as teams go it eventually evens out throughout a complete match BUT individually you can see where the apa rating system isnt that accurate.
Loun said:
From an outsider perspective, based on the stats you've relayed, it'd be easy for someone to say that your team won because they're sandbagging.
When the pressure was on, your players rose up to the challenge. Some even rose over their abilities.
Your first season in the league, making it all the way to playoffs and then into the finals. Clearly you must be sandbagging. Obviously your team is too strong to have made it by any other means.
This is a perfect example of what everyone is saying about the league.
FLICKit said:
First off I understand your post is dripping with sarcasm but its extremely easily explained.
As I mentioned most of the players on my team are new to the league so their ratings have not caught up yet. The 5 that stepped it up today will eventually be a strong 6 if not an average 7. He however is very inconsistent right now but when he is on he is on. The 3 that lost is actually an extremely good player but is really too good... he should have won the first game tonight but he got pissed off that he didnt end up straight on with one of his leaves so he slammed the ball and sold the game. He was in every game he played but just couldnt put the guy away. Eventually if he could string some wins together he would be a 5 (he is 68 and did a lot of drugs / drinking when he was younger so its taken its toll, he also pretty much only has 1 good eye lol but he knows more than god when it comes to pool) My girlfriend is a 3 but depending on the day she steps up and kicks my butt however she is extremely inconsitant and does not have a good table presence. She beats the guys in practice but come league night she cant seem to win to save her life. Im new to the league as well and I think im properly placed as a weak to avg 5. We have a very good 4 that has been in the league a while but hes lost a few games this session that he should have won but couldnt put it together. One of our other older guys has been in the hospital for 5 weeks now due to cancer and after 7 games he was a 5... (theres no doubt by now he would have been a strong 6 or 7) So for those that would say we sandbag as a team i would respond with the fact that the team is new, people are still settling into their APA ranking as they dont have enough games on record yet (10 or 11 for each of us) most of them are wildy inconsistent but over time they will go up, it just hasnt all happened yet.
One thing I have noticed is that if you play people who are ranked less or the same as you it is less likely that you will go up as quickly. I don't consider that sandbagging or cheating the system though as its merely properly playing your team members and the system is still working. I can honestly say we havent told anyone to lose a game on purpose, in fact most of the time we rag on someone if they drop a game they had a chance to win.
A great example: My first night playing in the league I played a female 3... the first game i ran 4 balls and decided to miss a ball to try to run up the innings since i heard thats how you win in the apa... she took the cue and ran the table on me. I never missed a ball on purpose other than for a safety or to place a ball closer to the pocket to block an opponents ball since.
There is a lot of strategy in playing team pool and we are good at playing that game... tonight we had to put up first so we led strong and they put up 1 of their 2 big guns and took him out. Down 1 they put up a 4 so we played our 4 that matched up with him, we won so tied 1 - 1 and we put up. Instead of putting up a 4 we lead strong again with out strong 5 and took the 2 - 1 lead. The pressure is back on them, we know they only have 1 more gun and then two 3's and a 4 that gets frazzled easy (my notes). They throw up thier last strong 5 (I took him out last match we played) BUT strategy says to throw low and setup for the last game. We throw a three who if he has a good night, has a chance of winning and he has to win 3 less games that I would going heads up. Our 3 lost but we played it right as it left them with only 3 "weaker" players to play. They put up their strongest player they had left being the 4. I was able to run some, the a couple more then play safe, got ball in hand and ran out. Second game went similar... he starts getting frazzled some so I setup to try to pop the 8 on the break in the third game figuring that that would just kill him (couldnt get the 8 to budge and I even almost took out our 3 with the cue). He ended up scratching on the 8. 4th game i should have put him away but i had an early 8 on a breakup attempt gone awry. Then the last game I went back to the original strategy of make a couple then play safe, let him try to kick at something, then run some give some and I won that last game. They were all 3 inning games other than the S-8's.
So the reason we were able to take a brand new group of people in the APA through the session into the playoffs and into the finals is because strategicaly we understand the best way to throw and arent afraid to give up an early game in order to have better odds later. Too many teams go for 5 points and we know from the couple of players that have been in the league if you shoot for 3 or more at home and only setup to take 2 on the road... at the end of the season you are in the playoffs. *edit* Also having a written record of everyone (Lou real world rating system #-/#/#+ - list of strengths and weaknesses and style of play) so you know who to play against them to work it to your advantage helps some
I imagine in the regionals and states im gonna be busy trying to gather info on people I've never seen play ROFL *edit*But I do see your point, if you have no clue about anything that is going on and all you see is numbers then you might think its sandbagging. BUT the sandbagging im talking about are the 3's on monday that can (and will) pretty much kick my ass at will any other night of the week.
Last edited:
Not really
It really about Participation, that's why there has been so much adjusting
of handicap systems over the last 10-15 years. Leagues want the money coming in, and how do you do that, by getting more people playing Pool.
How do you get more People playing Pool ... by having a handicap system
where everyone can compete with anyone else and have a chance to win.
But, in trying to accomplish this, some leagues have gone overboard with
their handicap systems, some defined handicap systems that create
abnomalities within the system.
Apa from 1 to 7
BCA 1 to 75 (5 players), 1 to 60 (4 players)
VNEA 1 to 13
You don't have to play much to realize that a person's true ability will
be reflected in a handicap system that is more definitive. The smaller
the defined parts of a handicap system, the truer it will be for everyone,
and the less sandbagging that will go on. BUT, for every system, people
will figure out ways to get around them, but if it is very definitive and fair on adjusting handicaps, the less ways to get around the system.
You know back before league, it wasn't about adjustments or handicaps, it was about you being good enough to challenge a table for a $20 game, or you
just sat on the sidelines watching the good players until you were good enough to play with them. Leagues in some ways have diminuished that incentive for someone to get good. I find players that are a certain handicap now, and like to stay there because they are a strong player for that handicap instead of improving and going up the ladder in handicap because
they would be a 'weak' player at the increased handicap. Not all players,
but quite a few though. But, they find that it goes out the window in
Vegas in Nationals, there is more about true competition and not handicapping.
These teams that win a league in their city, and think they are good usually learn a hard lesson when they go to Vegas ... that they are not near as good
as what they thought they were.
One fact that I am very proud of, is the last time I went to Vegas with a good team was 3 years ago, and I won over 91% of my matches. I pride
myself on good logic and being able to win when the odds are not in my favor and the mental aspects in general, so I felt good that I only lost 2 games
in Vegas when I was there playing in the Open tournament.
It really about Participation, that's why there has been so much adjusting
of handicap systems over the last 10-15 years. Leagues want the money coming in, and how do you do that, by getting more people playing Pool.
How do you get more People playing Pool ... by having a handicap system
where everyone can compete with anyone else and have a chance to win.
But, in trying to accomplish this, some leagues have gone overboard with
their handicap systems, some defined handicap systems that create
abnomalities within the system.
Apa from 1 to 7
BCA 1 to 75 (5 players), 1 to 60 (4 players)
VNEA 1 to 13
You don't have to play much to realize that a person's true ability will
be reflected in a handicap system that is more definitive. The smaller
the defined parts of a handicap system, the truer it will be for everyone,
and the less sandbagging that will go on. BUT, for every system, people
will figure out ways to get around them, but if it is very definitive and fair on adjusting handicaps, the less ways to get around the system.
You know back before league, it wasn't about adjustments or handicaps, it was about you being good enough to challenge a table for a $20 game, or you
just sat on the sidelines watching the good players until you were good enough to play with them. Leagues in some ways have diminuished that incentive for someone to get good. I find players that are a certain handicap now, and like to stay there because they are a strong player for that handicap instead of improving and going up the ladder in handicap because
they would be a 'weak' player at the increased handicap. Not all players,
but quite a few though. But, they find that it goes out the window in
Vegas in Nationals, there is more about true competition and not handicapping.
These teams that win a league in their city, and think they are good usually learn a hard lesson when they go to Vegas ... that they are not near as good
as what they thought they were.
One fact that I am very proud of, is the last time I went to Vegas with a good team was 3 years ago, and I won over 91% of my matches. I pride
myself on good logic and being able to win when the odds are not in my favor and the mental aspects in general, so I felt good that I only lost 2 games
in Vegas when I was there playing in the Open tournament.
Snapshot9 said:
A league doesn't have to be handicapped. In addition to APA I play in 2 in-house leagues that are not handicapped. I'm on a fairly weak team so I'm their #1 shooter and I always play the player on the other team with the best record (league rules 1 plays 1, 2 plays 2, etc.). They are always at least as good as me, very often better. There is no Vegas, no prize money, just pool. I love those leagues because everybody is always trying to win just to win. I don't want to play for 20 bucks a game just to have somebody try when playing me. People should try to win just out of pride and a sense of competition. Pool is not about money or trips to Vegas, it's about winning. I literally can't stand going to Vegas, it is a waste of my precious vacation time. However, I want my teams to go just because we have to win to go.
JMHO.
Nice thought ...
I glad you enjoy it as such then, except I have always played for money, it became a vehicle for focusing me on getting better, besides my own drive
to be the best at whatever I do. It's always about the money .... I learned that a long time ago ... for most people, not necessarily women, when they become good enough to win money, and do, the money aspect becomes a
motivator also, besides just loving the sport. I like money, I need money, and why shouldn't I earn money with my skill that I have spent thousands of hours perfecting ... I would have the same attitude in any other sport if I was that good in them. I used to play a lot of indoor soccer for years, for exercise
and just because I liked it, but have become too old to play anymore.
If I was this good in Golf, I would be trying to make some money at it.
I consider myself a purist for the sport, other than I do like to make money at it anytime I can.
Long ago, I was shooting at the 'money table' in town, 1 bar table at a
steakhouse that opened at 4 pm and stayed open till 6 am in the morning.
Many many people came down there after bars closing to have breakfast,
socialize, and to watch the money games in the backroom. I was shooting
a $1,000 a set, and my opponent won the first set. I got the jump on the second set, but he came roaring back closing the set up tight. We were racing to 11, and I was ahead 10-9, and I banked the 8 in from a long bank.
The 9 was on the other end on the short rail. I had a bank, but the 9
was frozen to the rail where it would not bank right for the opposite corner.
The cut shot was almost nil, and I elected to kick the 9 ball into the corner.
I took my time, lined it up, and kicked ..... I hit it perfect, the cueball hit
the 9 and the rail exactly at the same time, and the 9 ball rolled perfectly
into the corner pocket. About 60-70 people were seated at booths around
the 'money table' watching. Several people had sidebets on the set, as
much as $500. I was playing the best shooter in town at the time, and
I had just moved up here from Houston. When I made that 9 ball to win
the set, chaos erupted, people jumped up clapping and cheering, and going
on and on, ..... needless to say, I felt like I had won the Super Bowl or
a gold medal in the Olympics .... Never had I experienced such a reaction
from a crowd watching a match before... or seen since then. It was
a feeling I will never ever forget..... and getting the $1,000 back didn't hurt either ...
What I am trying to say is that, leagues are nice and all that, but until you sink a 9 ball for a $1,000 or more, you will not experience the best feelings
that come from being good at the sport, and having it pay off, unless
of course, you win a National championship. I won the state championship here 2 year ago, but it was not even close to the feelings I experienced
winning that $1,000 set and the reaction that followed.
You see, I started playing pool when I was 14, when the only thing was to
become the best in the world, whatever it took, not just being the best
in some league. Jimmy Caras came to my hometown when I was 14, and put on an exhibition, and I must say, he did inspire me to play. Besides, trophies and plaques get tiresome after awhile, and they all have to be dusted.
catscradle said:
I glad you enjoy it as such then, except I have always played for money, it became a vehicle for focusing me on getting better, besides my own drive
to be the best at whatever I do. It's always about the money .... I learned that a long time ago ... for most people, not necessarily women, when they become good enough to win money, and do, the money aspect becomes a
motivator also, besides just loving the sport. I like money, I need money, and why shouldn't I earn money with my skill that I have spent thousands of hours perfecting ... I would have the same attitude in any other sport if I was that good in them. I used to play a lot of indoor soccer for years, for exercise
and just because I liked it, but have become too old to play anymore.
If I was this good in Golf, I would be trying to make some money at it.
I consider myself a purist for the sport, other than I do like to make money at it anytime I can.
Long ago, I was shooting at the 'money table' in town, 1 bar table at a
steakhouse that opened at 4 pm and stayed open till 6 am in the morning.
Many many people came down there after bars closing to have breakfast,
socialize, and to watch the money games in the backroom. I was shooting
a $1,000 a set, and my opponent won the first set. I got the jump on the second set, but he came roaring back closing the set up tight. We were racing to 11, and I was ahead 10-9, and I banked the 8 in from a long bank.
The 9 was on the other end on the short rail. I had a bank, but the 9
was frozen to the rail where it would not bank right for the opposite corner.
The cut shot was almost nil, and I elected to kick the 9 ball into the corner.
I took my time, lined it up, and kicked ..... I hit it perfect, the cueball hit
the 9 and the rail exactly at the same time, and the 9 ball rolled perfectly
into the corner pocket. About 60-70 people were seated at booths around
the 'money table' watching. Several people had sidebets on the set, as
much as $500. I was playing the best shooter in town at the time, and
I had just moved up here from Houston. When I made that 9 ball to win
the set, chaos erupted, people jumped up clapping and cheering, and going
on and on, ..... needless to say, I felt like I had won the Super Bowl or
a gold medal in the Olympics .... Never had I experienced such a reaction
from a crowd watching a match before... or seen since then. It was
a feeling I will never ever forget..... and getting the $1,000 back didn't hurt either ...
What I am trying to say is that, leagues are nice and all that, but until you sink a 9 ball for a $1,000 or more, you will not experience the best feelings
that come from being good at the sport, and having it pay off, unless
of course, you win a National championship. I won the state championship here 2 year ago, but it was not even close to the feelings I experienced
winning that $1,000 set and the reaction that followed.
You see, I started playing pool when I was 14, when the only thing was to
become the best in the world, whatever it took, not just being the best
in some league. Jimmy Caras came to my hometown when I was 14, and put on an exhibition, and I must say, he did inspire me to play. Besides, trophies and plaques get tiresome after awhile, and they all have to be dusted.
Last edited:
Snapshot9 said:
I see nothing wrong with people who like to play for money, but for me it doesn't work. If I lost I couldn't afford it, if I won I'd just piss it away and still be in the hole from the time I lost. The only thing I do for money is poker, and that is only because there is no alternative way to play it. I didn't have the luxury of playing from the time I was 14, there was just no pool table within 30 miles that I knew of. I had neither time nor money (it all went to raising 4 boys private high school, college, etc.) to play seriously until about 5 years ago at 54. So I do what I can.
BTW, I don't know what age you are, but I still play soccer at 59 every Sunday. I just moved up from the over 50's to the newly formed over 60's division. I'd rather have stated in the over 50's, but my team wanted to move up to Division I from Division II and it was evident they wanted to replace me with a barely 50 year old. I used to play over 40 indoor too, but that astro-turf (or should I say concrete) is just too tough on the old knees. If you really like the game you might want to look around for an older division.
well ...
catscradle .... I am 57, but will deny it face to face .... lol Most think I
am 48 or 49. They didn't have 'over 50' soccer teams here. Even
the 'over 40' teams had 19 year olds playing in it ... figure that !!
Thank god, I had my 2 beefy nephews on my team that took most
of the punishment .... lol
catscradle .... I am 57, but will deny it face to face .... lol Most think I
am 48 or 49. They didn't have 'over 50' soccer teams here. Even
the 'over 40' teams had 19 year olds playing in it ... figure that !!
Thank god, I had my 2 beefy nephews on my team that took most
of the punishment .... lol
Snapshot9 said:
I'm blessed with looking younger than I am too. Of course the price of that was looking 12 in high school and not being able to get a date to save my soul. lol
We're pretty lucky to have a real good league that starts at over 30 around here. If your curious: The Over The Hill Soccer League.
Snapshot9 said:
... that's my hero, probably couldn't shoot pool though.
