APA Rule Question - Moving balls

[frankncali]

Until a year or two ago the rule was that the other player had the optin of moving them back. Then it changed to it HAD to be moved back.

I thought I had saw where both players had to agree with the location of the spotted ball(s) but maybe not.

I saw a match here where the two could not agree and the game was started over. IMO both guys were very close to the correct placement but a half inch would hook one guy or leave the other open. Both seemed happy with starting over.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Until a year or two ago the rule was that the other player had the optin of moving them back. Then it changed to it HAD to be moved back.

I thought I had saw where both players had to agree with the location of the spotted ball(s) but maybe not.

I saw a match here where the two could not agree and the game was started over. IMO both guys were very close to the correct placement but a half inch would hook one guy or leave the other open. Both seemed happy with starting over.

See, in my opinion, I think moving a ball is just bad form. I mean, I do it too. We all do from time to time but I understand when I move a ball, I leave myself vulnerable to something bad happening. Now, I would be upset if my opponent took liberty to hook me but I would be the only one to blame since I wouldn't be in that position had I not moved a ball to begin with.

 

[frankncali]

Yeah, this is just the beginning. I have to run an APA tournament in a couple weeks and I'm already preparing for a lot of this. You should see how I'm handling the frozen rule.

I run APA events here on occaision and usually there isnt much fuss. I think with your being a good player and respected will help with rulings.

The froze ball rule and just all double hits in general are tough to handle at times. I usually do this ....
If they are froze then I dont call a foul period unless its somewhere else in the shot.
If they are slightly apart and the angle means a double hit will occur then I call it a foul.
If the are slightly apart and it appears that the double hit is not liekly then unless its obvious I call good hit.

Trouble comes when they are about 1-2 inches apart. Too many people think that they make good hits even when aiming away from a straight line.

I have been lucky I guess and have never had anyone get really upset at a call. I did have to show one person how a ball could not have been a good hit once but once she agreed to the setup and how the CB came into them she agreed.

Good luck --- What kind of tourney is it? I am thinking about doing two this summer. One singles and one a scotch doubles with a high max handicap (13).

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I run APA events here on occaision and usually there isnt much fuss. I think with your being a good player and respected will help with rulings.

The froze ball rule and just all double hits in general are tough to handle at times. I usually do this ....
If they are froze then I dont call a foul period unless its somewhere else in the shot.
If they are slightly apart and the angle means a double hit will occur then I call it a foul.
If the are slightly apart and it appears that the double hit is not liekly then unless its obvious I call good hit.

Trouble comes when they are about 1-2 inches apart. Too many people think that they make good hits even when aiming away from a straight line.

I have been lucky I guess and have never had anyone get really upset at a call. I did have to show one person how a ball could not have been a good hit once but once she agreed to the setup and how the CB came into them she agreed.

Good luck --- What kind of tourney is it? I am thinking about doing two this summer. One singles and one a scotch doubles with a high max handicap (13).

This is a qualifier for the Scotch Doubles event in Las Vegas.

The way I will explain the rule piror to play is as follows: If they are frozen or near frozen, I will allow anything. By "near frozen", they are so close I can barely tell there is a gap. The moment there is a noticeable gap (1/8th of a inch is noticeable), they are no longer "near frozen" and the shooter must avoid a double-hit. I will then demonstrate what is not frozen and what is.

 

[Bob Jewett]

This is a qualifier for the Scotch Doubles event in Las Vegas.

The way I will explain the rule prior to play is as follows: If they are frozen or near frozen, I will allow anything. By "near frozen", they are so close I can barely tell there is a gap. The moment there is a noticeable gap (1/8th of a inch is noticeable), they are no longer "near frozen" and the shooter must avoid a double-hit. I will then demonstrate what is not frozen and what is.

I think making up your own rules that are unlike anybody else's rules will cause more problems than it solves. At least you're being clear about what rule you are using. I've seen TDs who would refuse to discuss rules in the players' meeting.

I looked through the APA rules and could find nothing about double hits and such. Is that rule completely missing from the APA rules?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think making up your own rules that are unlike anybody else's rules will cause more problems than it solves. At least you're being clear about what rule you are using. I've seen TDs who would refuse to discuss rules in the players' meeting.

I looked through the APA rules and could find nothing about double hits and such. Is that rule completely missing from the APA rules?

It's in the back of the book under definitions. It's vague which is why I'm going to specify exactly how it will be ruled. I'm not making-up rules. I'm simply defining exactly how I intend to interpret rules that currently exist.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It's in the back of the book under definitions. It's vague which is why I'm going to specify exactly how it will be ruled. I'm not making-up rules. I'm simply defining exactly how I intend to interpret rules that currently exist.

I see it now in the Handbook (not the Rules) listed under "Push Shots" on page 97. This "rule" has some of the most pitiful wording I've ever seen in a rule. It propagates ignorance.

 

[HarleyKR07]

On the APA moving balls rule, if you move 4 or more balls at the same time it is a loss of game.

 

[soulcatcher]

On the APA moving balls rule, if you move 4 or more balls at the same time it is a loss of game.

This may be a local bylaw, but it is not a part of the APA rule.

The rule book was changed last year to state the balls must be replaced by the opposing player. Prior to that it stated the opposing player had the option to move them back. They took away the option part, so now the balls must be moved back, and the opposing player is the one that should move them back. It is not a foul for the shooter to move them, unless it disturbs the cue ball, but would be a sportsmanship issue.

The only place this would become a foul is if the cue ball comes around the table and makes contact with one of the moved balls. This would be altering the path of the cue ball, and is a foul with all object balls left where they lie. If the shooter were to try to pick up the moved ball before the cue ball makes contact, it would still be a foul based upon the intent of the rule.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I see it now in the Handbook (not the Rules) listed under "Push Shots" on page 97. This "rule" has some of the most pitiful wording I've ever seen in a rule. It propagates ignorance.

Yes which is why I'm going to employ the same definition the BCA uses. If it's frozen, I'll allow them to shoot any way they want without penalty. If it's clearly not frozen, they will have to avoid a double-hit.

 

[Thunderball]

Until a year or two ago the rule was that the other player had the optin of moving them back. Then it changed to it HAD to be moved back.

Someone else in this thread mentioned this as well.thanks for the clarification.I missed this change along the way somewhere.

 

[soulcatcher]

Yes which is why I'm going to employ the same definition the BCA uses. If it's frozen, I'll allow them to shoot any way they want without penalty. If it's clearly not frozen, they will have to avoid a double-hit.

This sounds like a fair way to ref the situation. Most of the players in my APA league, who do not shoot Valley or BCA, have no clue what a double hit is. I can't tell you how many times I see them shoot a ball lined up straight into a pocket with a 2" or less gap, follow the ball straight into the pocket.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Someone else in this thread mentioned this as well.thanks for the clarification.I missed this change along the way somewhere.

Well, that's the thing. I thought about it for a while. The problem with the APA is that its typical play is casual. Players are refing other players so inherently, rules are treated lightly. This isn't a bad thing. I figure, once you enter a tournament, expectations should be higher. Play should be cleaner. I plan to do my best to educate the field and hope it doesn't come up but I don't intend to lower standards to the lowest common denominator. In sum, I believe if you want to compete in more serious settings (even under the APA), you have to know the rules.

 

[HarleyKR07]

This may be a local bylaw, but it is not a part of the APA rule.

The rule book was changed last year to state the balls must be replaced by the opposing player. Prior to that it stated the opposing player had the option to move them back. They took away the option part, so now the balls must be moved back, and the opposing player is the one that should move them back. It is not a foul for the shooter to move them, unless it disturbs the cue ball, but would be a sportsmanship issue.

The only place this would become a foul is if the cue ball comes around the table and makes contact with one of the moved balls. This would be altering the path of the cue ball, and is a foul with all object balls left where they lie. If the shooter were to try to pick up the moved ball before the cue ball makes contact, it would still be a foul based upon the intent of the rule.

That very well could be a local bylaw, seeing how we are not allowed to jump with a phenolic tip cue, it must be leather, but national rule you can jump with whatever as long as it's a full length cue.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The problem with the APA is that its typical play is casual. Players are refing other players so inherently, rules are treated lightly. This isn't a bad thing. I figure, once you enter a tournament, expectations should be higher. ...

The problem with having casual play locally is that the players remain ignorant. Very few of them will ever read the rules, so they will just go by what other players do and also ignorant team captains tell them. For the good the sport, I think it is better to have clear rules and apply them at all levels, or at least make it very clear what the real rules are if a more relaxed set is sometimes used.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The problem with having casual play locally is that the players remain ignorant. Very few of them will ever read the rules, so they will just go by what other players do and also ignorant team captains tell them. For the good the sport, I think it is better to have clear rules and apply them at all levels, or at least make it very clear what the real rules are if a more relaxed set is sometimes used.

I couldn't agree with you more. That's exactly my intent.

 

[Thunderball]

Well, that's the thing. I thought about it for a while. The problem with the APA is that its typical play is casual. Players are refing other players so inherently, rules are treated lightly. This isn't a bad thing. I figure, once you enter a tournament, expectations should be higher. Play should be cleaner. I plan to do my best to educate the field and hope it doesn't come up but I don't intend to lower standards to the lowest common denominator. In sum, I believe if you want to compete in more serious settings (even under the APA), you have to know the rules.

I agree completely Jude.I would include myself in the list of casual players who really hasn't kept up with the changes/bylaws.I (and my team) are heading to the cities to play this upcoming weekend so I'm sure I need a refresher for sure.This thread was a good reminder of that.

 

[D_Lewis]

Rules, must vary from league to league then. In our APA league the opposing player has the option to replace or not replace any balls that their opponent moved. It is not however, mandatory that moved balls be replaced.

I would imagine that the APA handbooks are all the same, if you read through it you will see that the balls must be placed back. A lot of other weird rules in there too.

For instance, we played the finals last night, the guy is breaking, AIRMAILS the cue ball over the rack and onto the floor. Ruling by our ref? Re-break as the cue ball on the floor is not deemed a 'scratch'

Oh, according to him, you can place the cue ball an inch away, play bottoms, have the cue ball roll 10 inches forward and it not be a double hit.....

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I run APA events here on occaision and usually there isnt much fuss. I think with your being a good player and respected will help with rulings.

The froze ball rule and just all double hits in general are tough to handle at times. I usually do this ....
If they are froze then I dont call a foul period unless its somewhere else in the shot.
If they are slightly apart and the angle means a double hit will occur then I call it a foul.
If the are slightly apart and it appears that the double hit is not liekly then unless its obvious I call good hit.

Trouble comes when they are about 1-2 inches apart. Too many people think that they make good hits even when aiming away from a straight line.

I have been lucky I guess and have never had anyone get really upset at a call. I did have to show one person how a ball could not have been a good hit once but once she agreed to the setup and how the CB came into them she agreed.

Good luck --- What kind of tourney is it? I am thinking about doing two this summer. One singles and one a scotch doubles with a high max handicap (13).

Also, if you plan on running a scotch-doubles handicapped tournament, let me know. I completed the tournament chart in excel last night. It automatically calculates the races and filters winners accordingly.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Good luck with that!!

The APA rules leave so much to be interpreted and it must always to kept in mind, what is the intent of the rule.

Steve

With APA trying to accomodate many levels of skill and different player's familiarity of playing in a tournament, they inadvertently muddied the rule.