APA Rules Expert Needed

[hang-the-9]

Well, here is what he did and why. The player was kinda short. So on long shots where he could not reach the cue ball, instead of using a bridge that he was not comfortable using, he would simply turn his stick around, lay the butt end on the table only a few inches away from the cue ball and push his stick into the cue ball. Using the butt end would not cause the cue ball to jump in the air as it would if using the cue tip. Now I agree that you are not going to get and accuracy or English if needed, but I thought it was kinda cleaver.

If stated that it is a foul, I would need proof from the APA rule book in which I cant find any.

You can't hit the cueball with the stick on the table that way. You can't hit it with the butt end either. APA or not APA, those are standard pool rules. It's like looking for a rule that states you should not hit your friends in the head with a hammer in the "how to be a good friend" manual. Some things are just general rules that apply to everything. APA plays around with some rules of games, but not the overall rules that govern what is a legal shot.

 

[hang-the-9]

Fouls are listed on pages 52-55 of the Team Manual. Shooting with the butt end of the cue is not listed there, so it is not a foul.

League operators are not permitted to create fouls in their local bylaws, either. If the bylaws in your area create additional ball-in-hand fouls, please bring it to the attention of the APA national office, who will work with your local operator to change the bylaws.

Operators may award ball-in-hand as a sportsmanship penalty, but those are not fouls and should be handled on a case-by-case basis. In other words, nothing should result in an automatic ball-in-hand except those fouls listed in the Team Manual.

There are general rules of pool that even the APA needs to go by. In most rules they state "if not listed, general rules of billiards apply".

Do they APA rules say anything about dunking a beer on the player while he's trying to shoot? I'm not really interfering with his shot because the beer does not hit his cue or any of the balls. Bet that's not in the APA rules either. So must be OK to do.

 

[PaulieB]

Awesome! Makes me want to use a house cue, stand beside the table, and swing the butt end of the cue at the cue ball like a baseball bat for my break shot. Perfectly APA legal!

 

[hang-the-9]

Hmmm, interesting. I know a league operator that put in a by law that you have to jackup your cue 45 degrees on a shot if the cue ball and object ball are touching or its a foul. So, you are saying that he can not do that?

Just jacking up on the shot does not prevent a foul in this case. The push shot is one of the most argued hits among players that don't know the rules very well. In the case of a frozen ball, you can stoke though the cueball in a single smooth motion and it's not a foul. In fact, if you jack up like the guy's rule states, and the cueball goes more than a tiny bit forward, it's a foul.

 

[ideologist]

There are general rules of pool that even the APA needs to go by. In most rules they state "if not listed, general rules of billiards apply".

Do they APA rules say anything about dunking a beer on the player while he's trying to shoot? I'm not really interfering with his shot because the beer does not hit his cue or any of the balls. Bet that's not in the APA rules either. So must be OK to do.

It also doesn't state I can't lift the corner of the table up before I shoot to roll some balls around.

I didn't touch the balls, so it's ok according to the lack of rules.

 

[APA Operator]

There are general rules of pool that even the APA needs to go by. In most rules they state "if not listed, general rules of billiards apply".

Do they APA rules say anything about dunking a beer on the player while he's trying to shoot? I'm not really interfering with his shot because the beer does not hit his cue or any of the balls. Bet that's not in the APA rules either. So must be OK to do.

My apologies for the confusion. There are plenty of things that are not fouls but are also not ok to do. You might get pounded into the ground, or tossed from the location, or thrown out of the league for pouring beer on a guy, but the guy wouldn't get a ball-in-hand. Many of those things actually ARE covered in the Team Manual, in a single sentence on page 83.

 

[hang-the-9]

My apologies for the confusion. There are plenty of things that are not fouls but are also not ok to do. You might get pounded into the ground, or tossed from the location, or thrown out of the league for pouring beer on a guy, but the guy wouldn't get a ball-in-hand. Many of those things actually ARE covered in the Team Manual, in a single sentence on page 83.

Actually, you ARE interfering with that shot if you do something to distract the player, so you SHOULD get ball in hand even if you don't actually touch any of the equipment.

What I described would be a foul in any sane pool playing world. It may actually cost you the set and may get you kicked out of the tournament.

Now if we went to the place where PoolKiller and PushNPool live and play, I can see some interesting Alice In Wonderland rules, but the APA seems to at least be mostly based in this universe where we shoot with the right end of the cue stick and don't toss out general rules of the game just because it's not in the APA rule book.

If I played in the APA and someone tried to do some funny stuff that everyone over 8 knows is wrong to do in the game, I'd first look at them funny, then make sure what I was seeing was actually OK to do. If the league operator or whoever agreed with the other guy, I'd pack my cues and leave while laughing at the silliness the whole drive home. Probably for a bit after that as well. Then I'd start a post about how stupid APA rules are on AZB.

 

[CreeDo]

There are a lot of situations not clearly covered by the manual, and in those cases you just try to go
by the 'spirit of the law' when the 'letter of the law' isn't clear enough.
You can refer to other rules to try to guess the rulemaker's intent.

So is using a non-standard tip (like the rubber butt cap) against the spirit of the law?
To make an educated guess on it, I'd look at this rule:

Massé and jump shots are legal, when executed properly, but such shots
must be attempted using a regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to
break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed
for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt massé or jump shots.

To me that tells me the rulemaker's intent is something like this:
'If you want to do a non-standard pool shot, ok, but you can't use
specialty equipment to execute it. You must use a normal playing cue."

You could argue "but I technically am using a normal playing cue" when you reverse the cue.
But ask yourself... if you tried to use a specialty "bridge cue" with a 25 millimeter, rubber tip,
would that be allowed under the APA's definition of a normal playing cue?
Probably not.

So I'd say it's pretty clear the spirit of the law is that they would not permit
using the the cue this way for bridge shots. Whether you live by the spirit of the rules
or not is then up to the player but bear in the mind any league operator has plenty of leeway
to make rulings on situations like this. I think it's safer to just play the game as it is meant
to be played and not try to get too cute with the rulebook.

 

[APA Operator]

Awesome! Makes me want to use a house cue, stand beside the table, and swing the butt end of the cue at the cue ball like a baseball bat for my break shot. Perfectly APA legal!

That's one I wouldn't allow in my area, but not because I think it would provide any advantage on the break (my guess is that would be a horrible way to break). I wouldn't allow it because it creates a dangerous situation, with a cue swinging like that and balls flying through the air (extremely likely). It would most likely also result in damage to equipment that you don't own.

Will I sit right down and put it in my bylaws now? No, I'll probably wait for some idiot to want to try it first. If I ever did put it in my bylaws, guess what? It wouldn't be a foul. There would definitely be a penalty (probably a re-rack and a subsequent sportsmanship penalty), but not a penalty that affects the way a game is played out.

I understand it's fun for some of you guys to make up crazy scenarios in an attempt to ridicule the APA, but the fact of the matter is that the rules are pretty solid and whatever isn't there can be covered pretty effectively by a reasonable LO. If you believe your LO to be unreasonable, I urge you to contact the national office.

 

[DAVE_M]

There are a lot of situations not clearly covered by the manual, and in those cases you just try to go
by the 'spirit of the law' when the 'letter of the law' isn't clear enough.
You can refer to other rules to try to guess the rulemaker's intent.

So is using a non-standard tip (like the rubber butt cap) against the spirit of the law?
To make an educated guess on it, I'd look at this rule:

Massé and jump shots are legal, when executed properly, but such shots
must be attempted using a regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to
break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed
for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt massé or jump shots.

To me that tells me the rulemaker's intent is something like this:
'If you want to do a non-standard pool shot, ok, but you can't use
specialty equipment to execute it. You must use a normal playing cue."

You could argue "but I technically am using a normal playing cue" when you reverse the cue.
But ask yourself... if you tried to use a specialty "bridge cue" with a 25 millimeter, rubber tip,
would that be allowed under the APA's definition of a normal playing cue?
Probably not.

So I'd say it's pretty clear the spirit of the law is that they would not permit
using the the cue this way for bridge shots. Whether you live by the spirit of the rules
or not is then up to the player but bear in the mind any league operator has plenty of leeway
to make rulings on situations like this. I think it's safer to just play the game as it is meant
to be played and not try to get too cute with the rulebook.

This about sums it up.

The APA assumes that the majority of the members are amateurs or new to the game. It's under that assumption that the majority of the members/players have standard equipment, deeming it unnecesary to have equipment rules, such as: Tip Material & Cue Requirements. It's quite obvious that a "normal playing cue" is a 58"+/- 19oz+/- wood cue with a leather tip. Anyone that says otherwise is just stirring the APA pot.

 

[APA Operator]

There are a lot of situations not clearly covered by the manual, and in those cases you just try to go
by the 'spirit of the law' when the 'letter of the law' isn't clear enough.
You can refer to other rules to try to guess the rulemaker's intent.

So is using a non-standard tip (like the rubber butt cap) against the spirit of the law?
To make an educated guess on it, I'd look at this rule:

Massé and jump shots are legal, when executed properly, but such shots
must be attempted using a regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to
break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed
for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt massé or jump shots.

To me that tells me the rulemaker's intent is something like this:
'If you want to do a non-standard pool shot, ok, but you can't use
specialty equipment to execute it. You must use a normal playing cue."

You could argue "but I technically am using a normal playing cue" when you reverse the cue.
But ask yourself... if you tried to use a specialty "bridge cue" with a 25 millimeter, rubber tip,
would that be allowed under the APA's definition of a normal playing cue?
Probably not.

So I'd say it's pretty clear the spirit of the law is that they would not permit
using the the cue this way for bridge shots. Whether you live by the spirit of the rules
or not is then up to the player but bear in the mind any league operator has plenty of leeway
to make rulings on situations like this. I think it's safer to just play the game as it is meant
to be played and not try to get too cute with the rulebook.

I can see how one might think this way, but in actuality the intent of disallowing jump cues on jump shots is to prevent those who can't use them properly from attempting to use them and damaging equipment. Note that they are allowed in Masters play.

If it was just about the cue, then the rule would say "cues made to facilitate jump shots are not allowed." But that would rule out most break cues too. The fact that a jump cue can be used for any shot OTHER THAN a jump shot should tell you that it's not about the cue at all.

If it was just about the shot, then the rule would say "jump shots are not allowed." But then you have issues with accidental jumps and nits who want to cry foul every time the cue ball hops. You also can't say "intentional jump shots are not allowed" because of the arguments about whether a hop was or was not intentional, most likely involving those same nits, on whichever side of the argument benefits them.

So the compromise is that you can't shoot a jump shot with a jump cue. Theoretically, that should keep players who can't properly use a jump cue from attempting jump shots at all, while allowing partial jumps by more experienced players and avoiding the whole accidental jump issue.

With that in mind, since the shot in the OP poses no danger to equipment or players and actually puts the shooter at a disadvantage over simply using a mechanical bridge or cue extender (both of which were created mainly to avoid miscues), I see no reason to disallow it. If you can shoot the same shot with a fat-tipped cue, why bother making the shooter come up with one?

 

[APA Operator]

Actually, you ARE interfering with that shot if you do something to distract the player, so you SHOULD get ball in hand even if you don't actually touch any of the equipment.

What I described would be a foul in any sane pool playing world. It may actually cost you the set and may get you kicked out of the tournament.

I'd love to see the sane pool playing world where that would simply be a ball-in-hand foul. I consider myself to be fairly sane and I wouldn't play in a league/tournament where I have to shoot out the remainder of a game/set after someone pours a beer on me.

Now if we went to the place where PoolKiller and PushNPool live and play, I can see some interesting Alice In Wonderland rules, but the APA seems to at least be mostly based in this universe where we shoot with the right end of the cue stick and don't toss out general rules of the game just because it's not in the APA rule book.

Colorful verbiage aside, this is simply more confusion. I've suspended players for shooting with the wrong end of the cue before. In those situations, the player had a big lead and was showing off or taunting his opponent. Wrong to do in that case, so there's a penalty.

If I played in the APA and someone tried to do some funny stuff that everyone over 8 knows is wrong to do in the game, I'd first look at them funny, then make sure what I was seeing was actually OK to do. If the league operator or whoever agreed with the other guy, I'd pack my cues and leave while laughing at the silliness the whole drive home. Probably for a bit after that as well. Then I'd start a post about how stupid APA rules are on AZB.

I guess you'd have to do all of that stuff, then. The operator probably wouldn't have a problem with you leaving.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I actually know of a shot where you use the butt of the cue stick. As long as some guy isn't being a dick and hitting in the winning ball with the butt of his cue to rub it in I honestly do not see any problem with it.

 

[Celophanewrap]

You can't hit the cueball with the stick on the table that way. You can't hit it with the butt end either. APA or not APA, those are standard pool rules. It's like looking for a rule that states you should not hit your friends in the head with a hammer in the "how to be a good friend" manual. Some things are just general rules that apply to everything. APA plays around with some rules of games, but not the overall rules that govern what is a legal shot.

I can sympathize, and I can just about see the smoke coming from your ears as you read and type, but try to remember that we're talking about the APA here. I have, as I'm sure some others (including APA Operator) have, seen some of the silliest shit you can see in a pool match within the confines of the APA. I have found that many things are left to common sense, but common sense can be subjective, and all things considered some stuff is just not worth the fight that it might cause. I can just see some one waiving a rule book in my face and saying "show me where it says it's illegal". Hell, you know the APA rule about marking your eight ball pocket? I've dealt with countless players that don't like whatever pocket marker I use and find a way to call it a rule violation. The thing is, I'm not one of those people that have a special pocket marker, I'll use a shoe, or ketchup, or a sugar packet, empty beer glass, or whatever. They get mad and I'll respond with, "Do you have question about where I intend to put the 8 ball?", "So is this all necessary?" But man oh man, play some folks and try marking your 8 ball pocket with a quarter and watch some people go off, now that can be funny. But anyways, remember, it's the APA, it's sort of like trying to apply wiffle ball rules to Major League Baseball.

 

[Celophanewrap]

It also doesn't state I can't lift the corner of the table up before I shoot to roll some balls around.

I didn't touch the balls, so it's ok according to the lack of rules.

I believe there was once a rule, not sure if there still is, about changing the playing environment. I moved a table and a chair out of my way once and some nimrod f-tard argued with me about that being a foul. I finally told him to take BIH, but not to be mad for what happened next. It was an uncomfortable, painful match for him the rest of the way

 

[CreeDo]

I can see how one might think this way, but in actuality the intent of disallowing jump cues on jump shots is to prevent those who can't use them properly from attempting to use them and damaging equipment. Note that they are allowed in Masters play.

I see your reasoning and I think you're right, I guess the APA isn't so much anti-jump-cue,
they're anti amateurs-damaging-the-equipment.

How about this then:
The rules say you must use something specifically designed for playing pocket billiards.
While the pointy end of the stick itself is designed for playing pocket billiards, the butt of it is not.
So you shouldn't be able to shoot with a rubber buttcap any more than you should be allowed
to shoot with a broom or a curtain rod (regardless of -or maybe because of- any unique advantages those carry).

 

[Celophanewrap]

I see your reasoning and I think you're right, I guess the APA isn't so much anti-jump-cue,
they're anti amateurs-damaging-the-equipment.

How about this then:
The rules say you must use something specifically designed for playing pocket billiards.
While the pointy end of the stick itself is designed for playing pocket billiards, the butt of it is not.
So you shouldn't be able to shoot with a rubber buttcap any more than you should be allowed
to shoot with a broom or a curtain rod (regardless of -or maybe because of- any unique advantages those carry).

So I get out my broom stick that used to be yellow, it's now blue,and I tell you that I have designed this for pocket billiards. However, your shirt is a golf shirt, and your shoes were intended for basketball, your Nautica pants are sailing pants, and you hat is a baseball hat. Get 'em off or I'll call a foul.

Isn't this fun!!!

 

[APA Operator]

I see your reasoning and I think you're right, I guess the APA isn't so much anti-jump-cue,
they're anti amateurs-damaging-the-equipment.

Not really. I'd say they're more anti-locations-blaming-the-APA-for-damage-to-their-equipment.

How about this then:
The rules say you must use something specifically designed for playing pocket billiards.
While the pointy end of the stick itself is designed for playing pocket billiards, the butt of it is not.
So you shouldn't be able to shoot with a rubber buttcap any more than you should be allowed
to shoot with a broom or a curtain rod (regardless of -or maybe because of- any unique advantages those carry).

Ah, but inclusion doesn't imply exclusion, does it? The rules don't actually say what you say they say. :grin:

 

[hang-the-9]

I actually know of a shot where you use the butt of the cue stick. As long as some guy isn't being a dick and hitting in the winning ball with the butt of his cue to rub it in I honestly do not see any problem with it.

There may be a shot like that, just like there are "shots" where someone lies the cue flat then lifts it up to slide the tip across the cue ball, or puts the cue on the table and then pushes it forward (with the right end at least) but it's a foul to actually shoot those shots. You can't hold the cue over the ball then let the bridge go so it hits it on the way down. You have to basically poke the cuestick forward while holding it in your hands, or at least one hand in the case of the mechanical bridge.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

There may be a shot like that, just like there are "shots" where someone lies the cue flat then lifts it up to slide the tip across the cue ball, or puts the cue on the table and then pushes it forward (with the right end at least) but it's a foul to actually shoot those shots. You can't hold the cue over the ball then let the bridge go so it hits it on the way down. You have to basically poke the cuestick forward while holding it in your hands, or at least one hand in the case of the mechanical bridge.

I know the shot you are talking about and that is addressed in BCA rules I believe.

The shot I am talking about is when the cue ball is on the long rail and you cannot reach it without using the bridge. You line up the shot like you are shooting in the opposite direction of the cue ball and hit the cue ball on the back stroke with the butt of the cue.

Whatever the case.... if my opponent starts shooting with the butt end of his cue stick I start feeling good about my chances