APA rules question

UGC said:
Don't stop reading there. Read the rest of my post and you'll understand WHY I'm asking the question.

I really don't understand why some post in this thread are trying to attack my character for asking a simple question about a rule in the rule book??
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That really just happened? I hit one billion inside a year and topped out at a year and a half.

Well, first time for everything. Best of luck, Cappy.
 
UGC said:
This is my first session with APA, and I'm Team Captain. We're going to the playoffs, so I figured I would brush up on the rules so I know them better. Started reading the rule book from page 1 on, and came across this in the latest Team Manual, on page 39, it says, "You may change cues and/or cue shafts during a game provided the cues and/or shafts you are switching to do not violate any rules of use, and you remain within the time guidelines. "

So, I'm thinking I could get a light weight playing cue and just put a hard leather tip on it. Use it for jump shots/breaking only, and still be within the guide lines of the rules.- but everyone is telling me I can't do that.

My question is why can't you? It states in the rule book that you CAN.

What rule am I breaking if I change playing cues in the middle of a game?

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts on this.

EDIT: This is not Masters, just regular APA.
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In asking for black and white instructions for this rule at the Higher Level Tournaments
what I've been told is that break cues that are specifically labeled break cues, ie.-
The Predator BK series, The McDeromtt Stingers and cues such as these are what
are considered break cues and can't be switched to for performing a jump or masse
shot. Also I've been told that just simply changing the tip of a playing cue does not
necessarily make it a break cue. So if you break with your breaker that happens to be
a McDermott G705 or a Predator SWJP (neither of which are "break cues") you could
switch to that during the game. Keep in mind that is what I'm told in Las Vegas a
couple of times a year, locally this rule may be looked at a little differently. Best to
check with your LO to see how that rule would be enforced on the Local Level.
The one thing that continues to kinda make me crazy in Las Vegas is when people
say, "That's not what the rule is at home..." or something similar. I do remind them
that they're not at home. So that being said I would implore you - for things that don't
seem black and white, check with your LO to see how it's going to be enforced
 
Celophanewrap said:
In asking for black and white instructions for this rule at the Higher Level Tournaments
what I've been told is that break cues that are specifically labeled break cues, ie.-
The Predator BK series, The McDeromtt Stingers and cues such as these are what
are considered break cues and can't be switched to for performing a jump or masse
shot. Also I've been told that just simply changing the tip of a playing cue does not
necessarily make it a break cue. So if you break with your breaker that happens to be
a McDermott G705 or a Predator SWJP (neither of which are "break cues") you could
switch to that during the game. Keep in mind that is what I'm told in Las Vegas a
couple of times a year, locally this rule may be looked at a little differently. Best to
check with your LO to see how that rule would be enforced on the Local Level.
The one thing that continues to kinda make me crazy in Las Vegas is when people
say, "That's not what the rule is at home..." or something similar. I do remind them
that they're not at home. So that being said I would implore you - for things that don't
seem black and white, check with your LO to see how it's going to be enforced
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Thanks for the feedback. And I did check with my LO, he told me to ask the APA directly for an official answer. Which I did. I'm just waiting on a reply back from them. I posted the question here to see what others thought while waiting on the official answer. Figured other players may have ran into this issue elsewhere and it may have been solved. But from the answers I received.... not so sure. lol
 
Celophanewrap said:
In asking for black and white instructions for this rule at the Higher Level Tournaments
what I've been told is that break cues that are specifically labeled break cues, ie.-
The Predator BK series, The McDeromtt Stingers and cues such as these are what
are considered break cues and can't be switched to for performing a jump or masse
shot. Also I've been told that just simply changing the tip of a playing cue does not
necessarily make it a break cue. So if you break with your breaker that happens to be
a McDermott G705 or a Predator SWJP (neither of which are "break cues") you could
switch to that during the game. Keep in mind that is what I'm told in Las Vegas a
couple of times a year, locally this rule may be looked at a little differently. Best to
check with your LO to see how that rule would be enforced on the Local Level.
The one thing that continues to kinda make me crazy in Las Vegas is when people
say, "That's not what the rule is at home..." or something similar. I do remind them
that they're not at home. So that being said I would implore you - for things that don't
seem black and white, check with your LO to see how it's going to be enforced
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While I don't disagree that some may not let me use it (which I'm totally fine with) I was allowed to use a BK Rush to jump in Vegas. The captains called a ref, who brought someone from the head table, they took a small device and scraped my tip and said it was legal to use. I don't think the same thing would have happened had I tried to jump with my Stinger.
 
Dockter said:
While I don't disagree that some may not let me use it (which I'm totally fine with) I was allowed to use a BK Rush to jump in Vegas. The captains called a ref, who brought someone from the head table, they took a small device and scraped my tip and said it was legal to use. I don't think the same thing would have happened had I tried to jump with my Stinger.
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In the APA? My apologies if I wasn't very clear, I was referring to an APA situation
 
UGC said:
Thanks for the feedback. And I did check with my LO, he told me to ask the APA directly for an official answer. Which I did. I'm just waiting on a reply back from them. I posted the question here to see what others thought while waiting on the official answer. Figured other players may have ran into this issue elsewhere and it may have been solved. But from the answers I received.... not so sure. lol
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Yes, because we all check every single rule before we do anything. I told you to use it, and it won't be a problem. But, I think you like the idea that it's really "illegal" and you some how outsmarted the system.

Nobody cares. Frankly, i'd like to see a video of you jumping with your full cue because the point is moot, you can't even jump with it, but want to use it ;) lol
 
Celophanewrap said:
In the APA? My apologies if I wasn't very clear, I was referring to an APA situation
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Yes, APA Worlds in Vegas. I had the option at a 3 rail kick or a relatively easy jump shot that I only had to clear a quarter of the ball. I was unsure of the rule although everyone around here jumps so I was lining up the kick. My captain called a timeout and told me to jump it, I grabbed my BK Rush and knowing what was about to happen I took my time and let it be known I was jumping. The other captain of course didn't think I could so called a ref, the ref wasn't sure and went and got someone else who had some metal device, they took a small chip out of my tip and deemed it legal to jump with.

edit: If you have a facebook I can try to find the video since we streamed most of our matches. It was a long drawn out ordeal that's for sure.
 
Dockter said:
... went and got someone else who had some metal device, they took a small chip out of my tip and deemed it legal to jump with....
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Well, the problem with some tips is that they are as hard as the cue ball or harder and each shot will damage the cue ball. The right way to test for that is with a durometer, not by scraping. Or maybe it was a durometer.
 
Dockter said:
Yes, APA Worlds in Vegas. I had the option at a 3 rail kick or a relatively easy jump shot that I only had to clear a quarter of the ball. I was unsure of the rule although everyone around here jumps so I was lining up the kick. My captain called a timeout and told me to jump it, I grabbed my BK Rush and knowing what was about to happen I took my time and let it be known I was jumping. The other captain of course didn't think I could so called a ref, the ref wasn't sure and went and got someone else who had some metal device, they took a small chip out of my tip and deemed it legal to jump with.

edit: If you have a facebook I can try to find the video since we streamed most of our matches. It was a long drawn out ordeal that's for sure.
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What year was that? Metal device, that’s interesting, do you know what the device was?
I guess if it was a BK Rush it would have had to be the last two or three years?
 
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I think you are over thinking the rule. Just enjoy playing the game and if an action is questioned refer to the Div. Rep. and LO. It's supposed to be fun. You can spend forever in hypothetical circumstances.
 
jeremy8000 said:
The book isn't well written, but even so, I think the answer here is fully and adequately provided, as follows, unless you are willing to willfully attempt to circumvent the spirit of the rules just to try to gain an edge - and even then, any APA official with an understanding of the intent of the rules should see through and bar against that effort:



The key word here is "majority." I'm going to assume we can all agree that majority can be defined as being greater than 50%, limiting the number of Regular Shooting Cues (hereafter "RSC") for a player to a single cue to be represented by a player as the cue they choose to use for the majority of shots because any other cue is, by definition, limited to being one they would use for less than 50%, i.e. a minority, of shots.

Therefore, any cue that is not the one you are using for the majority of your shots does not meet the definition of RSC as that definition applies to you, and does not have the freedom of eligibility of use for jump or masse shots enjoyed by your actual RSC.

"Majority" makes it clear cut - someone can't sustain the argument that they would use two different cues, each for a majority of shots, in a game. One has to win out, and that one has to be the only one allowed for those restricted shots.
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The key word here is not "majority" - it's "designed". I don't care how YOU use it, the question I ask is would it be reasonable for "SOMEONE" to use it for the majority of shots in a game of pool. A light cue with a hard leather tip is, in my opinion, reasonable to use for the majority of shots in a game of pool. Then again, if you showed me a six-ounce cue I might change my mind... Again, get a ruling from the person in charge.

So many people here say the book is not well-written. I disagree with that. It is well-written for it's intended use. It is not well-written for the way many people here want to use it. If you want it to live on a pedestal somewhere and be use as a be-all-end-all reference, you need a much bigger book. If you want something you can carry around that covers a lot of situations but leaves room for interpretation, this book serves the purpose well.
 
APA Operator said:
The key word here is not "majority" - it's "designed". I don't care how YOU use it, the question I ask is would it be reasonable for "SOMEONE" to use it for the majority of shots in a game of pool. A light cue with a hard leather tip is, in my opinion, reasonable to use for the majority of shots in a game of pool. Then again, if you showed me a six-ounce cue I might change my mind... Again, get a ruling from the person in charge.

So many people here say the book is not well-written. I disagree with that. It is well-written for it's intended use. It is not well-written for the way many people here want to use it. If you want it to live on a pedestal somewhere and be use as a be-all-end-all reference, you need a much bigger book. If you want something you can carry around that covers a lot of situations but leaves room for interpretation, this book serves the purpose well.
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If a player has a cue they want to turn to essentially only for jump shots and tries to justify it based on it being of a design that is reasonable for 'someone' to use for the majority of their shots even though they only want to use it for the jumps, they're in complete violation of the spirit of the rules, potentially subject to sportsmanship violation.
 
jeremy8000 said:
If a player has a cue they want to turn to essentially only for jump shots and tries to justify it based on it being of a design that is reasonable for 'someone' to use for the majority of their shots even though they only want to use it for the jumps, they're in complete violation of the spirit of the rules, potentially subject to sportsmanship violation.
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Yes, in violation of the spirit of the rule, as is whining about someones skill level in
violation of the sportsmanship guidelines of the APA. Neither of which are subject to a
sportsmanship violation, well, not really. If you were to argue about it and continue to try
and use the cue if it had been deemed to be in violation of a rule then the player would
certainly be subject to a sportsmanship violation, which generally amounts to a slap on
the wrist and a "don't do that again" finger wag. It really depends on where you are.
The rules vary from place to place as an LO sees fit. In Jeremy's area it may well be a
sportsmanship violation to use a cue as he has described, in my area not so much, on
the national level that cue that Jeremy describes has been permissible, but every year
APA Admin talks about rules. On the national level in 2020 it may be a little different,
I suspect it will be largely the same in your local areas
 
Celophanewrap said:
What year was that? Metal device, that’s interesting, do you know what the device was?
I guess if it was a BK Rush it would have had to be the last two or three years?
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Just this year, my team made it for the 9 ball event. It definitely was not a durometer, it was some little gadget that took a small chip out of my tip.
 
Dockter said:
Just this year, my team made it for the 9 ball event. It definitely was not a durometer, it was some little gadget that took a small chip out of my tip.
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I'd love to know who and what that was. At the national level there's no device made
available or no tip standard or criteria for a cue/cue tip to be legal in certain circumstances.
Does anyone know what this device may have been?
 
jeremy8000 said:
If a player has a cue they want to turn to essentially only for jump shots and tries to justify it based on it being of a design that is reasonable for 'someone' to use for the majority of their shots even though they only want to use it for the jumps, they're in complete violation of the spirit of the rules, potentially subject to sportsmanship violation.
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THIS. Probably,no, the BEST answer on this so far. Well said,sir.
 
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