Great Post, I agree 100% !!! :thumbup2:
APA Sandbagging
- Thread starter tjshaw02
- Start date
Great Post, I agree 100% !!! :thumbup2:
Better hurry as I am on the back end of a 35 year run as the LO here in Jackson Cty MO (greater Kansas City).
Haven't set the date yet, but will probably sell the fanchise in another year or two.
We MAY have already met at some APA function back when you were an LO and I do recognize your name. Being a LO does help to generate some "war stories". Or maybe I should call it "horror stories". LOL.
doesn't happen, sandbagging was eliminated from the APA 15 years ago :thumbup:
tryin2hustle
Registered
If you ever lose on purpose. You may as well stay home. Good for you!
This is why I will never play APA. I have heard so many stories like this. Oh I forgot. We can go to Vegas! BS. This sort of stuff dumbs down the whole game. Call me selfish but I play my own game. I blame myself when I lose and I blame myself when I win. I will not let a 7 who is probably really a 5 tell me what to do. Where is there any satisfaction in this? This hurts a great game.
I am seriously considering bagging APA.
I don't like the sandbagging strategy nor do I like being coached and having others call a time-out on me which interrupts my play and my rhythm.
I recently heard of a straight pool league which I find very appealing and if I don't do that I will play in a singles 9 ball/8 ball league on an alternate night.
I won't name the room, but the worst aspect of APA is the playoffs which are held at an APA subsidized room full of tables needing leveling, new cushions, and recovering.
I don't like the sandbagging strategy nor do I like being coached and having others call a time-out on me which interrupts my play and my rhythm.
I recently heard of a straight pool league which I find very appealing and if I don't do that I will play in a singles 9 ball/8 ball league on an alternate night.
I won't name the room, but the worst aspect of APA is the playoffs which are held at an APA subsidized room full of tables needing leveling, new cushions, and recovering.
Where there are players there will be someone who sandbags regardless of what league affiliation. The how depends on the league rules. As to the second item, a timeout is a conference and it is still the player who decides how they are going to proceed. I haven't found a timeout has affected my rhythm but that's me.
Al
Al
ill play devils advocate and tell you that if your team does not have underrated players they are uncompetitive at nationals.
that said, I have for a long time believed that had I joined league when i was 18yo I would play at least 2-3 balls below what I play at now. League seems to encourage many to not get better.
that said, I have for a long time believed that had I joined league when i was 18yo I would play at least 2-3 balls below what I play at now. League seems to encourage many to not get better.
How about this for Organized Sandbagging: A team I knew played in two APA divisions. In one division they constantly sandbagged. Lost big. All the players. In the other division they played their best to qualify for the playoffs, but with the benefit of their sandbagged lower SL's.
Someone went to the APA web page, pulled all the stats, and showed it to the LO. The LO did take action.
Crazy.
Someone went to the APA web page, pulled all the stats, and showed it to the LO. The LO did take action.
Crazy.
I don't think sandbagging is unique to APA. However, I do wish that APA would raise the team handicap to 25 vice 23.
I think I'm on the 6/7 bubble and I've played my required games this session although we still have 8 weeks left. Our team is already qualified for LTCs. If my team captain was smart, she wouldn't play me much more this session. I don't think she realizes how to properly manage handicaps, so she will probably continue to play me and I will continue to try to dominate my opponents. Unfortunately, I will be of little help to our team if I end the session as a S/L 7 because we are already struggling to stay under handicap. I'm not going to tell her how to manage the team though because becoming a S/L 7 is a personal goal of mine.
I think I'm on the 6/7 bubble and I've played my required games this session although we still have 8 weeks left. Our team is already qualified for LTCs. If my team captain was smart, she wouldn't play me much more this session. I don't think she realizes how to properly manage handicaps, so she will probably continue to play me and I will continue to try to dominate my opponents. Unfortunately, I will be of little help to our team if I end the session as a S/L 7 because we are already struggling to stay under handicap. I'm not going to tell her how to manage the team though because becoming a S/L 7 is a personal goal of mine.
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When I played APA there was a team that did this exact thing. The bar we played at paid all dues, so it didn't even cost the team to play that second night.
Sandbagging affects the team you're playing for, but it also affects the team you're playing. Leave the handicap determination out of the equation and just imagine how deflating it is to play someone who's not even trying. Competition is what makes pool, even in leagues, fun. I just never felt so strongly about a plastic trophy and a Vegas trip to turn pool into a chore.
Whenever there is a 'prize' to be won there will be those who will seek ways to manipulate and circumvent the rules and system in order to gain an unfair advantage.
I have never done any less than my best to win in the 25+ years I've participated in APA, but I found that when I left one league market where I'd played competitively for years as a 4, I immediately began destroying everything in my path in the new league area despite my actual skill remaining the same. In short order I was advanced to a 5, then a 6, at which point my winning ratio returned to where it had been in the initial league area.
I attribute this to rampant sandbagging in the first area. Sandbaggers not only manipulate their own handicaps, but indirectly impact those of the league in which they participate, particularly in terms of elevated innings and failure to mark defensive shots. I believe this causes a wide variance in exactly what defines a skill range from one APA market to another.
Fortunately, over the years my skill has improved to where I am able to compete in those instances where I do face a sandbagger, but it is still the rotting apple in the fruit basket that is the league. The only effective deterrence is an honest and watchful league operator and players willing to report suspect play.
I have never done any less than my best to win in the 25+ years I've participated in APA, but I found that when I left one league market where I'd played competitively for years as a 4, I immediately began destroying everything in my path in the new league area despite my actual skill remaining the same. In short order I was advanced to a 5, then a 6, at which point my winning ratio returned to where it had been in the initial league area.
I attribute this to rampant sandbagging in the first area. Sandbaggers not only manipulate their own handicaps, but indirectly impact those of the league in which they participate, particularly in terms of elevated innings and failure to mark defensive shots. I believe this causes a wide variance in exactly what defines a skill range from one APA market to another.
Fortunately, over the years my skill has improved to where I am able to compete in those instances where I do face a sandbagger, but it is still the rotting apple in the fruit basket that is the league. The only effective deterrence is an honest and watchful league operator and players willing to report suspect play.
I'd tell the team I was leaving at the end of the session.
Then start your own team in the Masters Division where there are no handicaps for the players.
I did this, not because my Captain ever suggested losing for handicap purposes, but because I wanted to always play the best player on the opposing team. I also had a tough time watching 18 inning matches between a 1 & 2.
Now I get my butt handed to me, however, I know my ability is improving by competing against better competition.
Good luck.
Then start your own team in the Masters Division where there are no handicaps for the players.
I did this, not because my Captain ever suggested losing for handicap purposes, but because I wanted to always play the best player on the opposing team. I also had a tough time watching 18 inning matches between a 1 & 2.
Now I get my butt handed to me, however, I know my ability is improving by competing against better competition.
Good luck.
C'mon.....
there's no sandbagging in the APA, that would be a violation of the rules you silly people
there's no sandbagging in the APA, that would be a violation of the rules you silly people
Without a rating system that goes outside of a closed environment, people playing outside that league, the perception of a level is never the same.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Sandbagging
Many smart people, with good intentions, have tried, in vain, to prevent sandbagging by choosing the “right” statistics, the “right” mathematics and the “right” match-making methods. Inevitably, since that fails, they are forced to apply a band aid in the form of handicap police, skill level limit or some other "fix". The statistics, mathematics and match-making have little or nothing to do with whether or not people sandbag. It’s about the incentives.
It is often stated that a certain handicapping system cannot be sandbagged or it is difficult to sandbag. This is wishful thinking. Any rating/handicapping system that is based on past performance is vulnerable to sandbagging. Any new player can play wrong handed for as long as it takes to have a firmly established rating and then switch to his or her other hand. When you hear someone say a handicapping system is sandbag proof, take it with a grain of salt.
You might have already guessed, I'm working on an idea. Stay tuned. :grin:
Don
Many smart people, with good intentions, have tried, in vain, to prevent sandbagging by choosing the “right” statistics, the “right” mathematics and the “right” match-making methods. Inevitably, since that fails, they are forced to apply a band aid in the form of handicap police, skill level limit or some other "fix". The statistics, mathematics and match-making have little or nothing to do with whether or not people sandbag. It’s about the incentives.
It is often stated that a certain handicapping system cannot be sandbagged or it is difficult to sandbag. This is wishful thinking. Any rating/handicapping system that is based on past performance is vulnerable to sandbagging. Any new player can play wrong handed for as long as it takes to have a firmly established rating and then switch to his or her other hand. When you hear someone say a handicapping system is sandbag proof, take it with a grain of salt.
You might have already guessed, I'm working on an idea. Stay tuned. :grin:
Don
One thing I've noticed in our area is that my league's home tables are much tighter and tougher than many of the others in town. Our Thursday and Wednesday night leagues have many LTC teams qualified in 8 and 9, definitely a higher percentage than others. I've always wondered how APA accounts for table difference. Where our tricups and LTCs are held the tables are so much more forgiving than our home tables and I feel like it adds to our innings without anyone doing sandbagging. I've noticed the teams playing on BBs don't do nearly as well as our teams playing on stubborn 8 footers. Our LTCs are played on forgiving 8 footers.
Not I....
Matt #2 < --- nationally locked 7 for life (8 ball)
I used to (many years ago) dump a bit to stay a 6, but then decided that was not good for my game and so I just decided to go into flip mode and start throttling people. If feels much better winning giving baggers a spot than playing even up...tough to fade some matches, but I find it more satisfying beating someone you play even with spotting them 1-2 games in APA.
Matt #2 < --- nationally locked 7 for life (8 ball)
I used to (many years ago) dump a bit to stay a 6, but then decided that was not good for my game and so I just decided to go into flip mode and start throttling people. If feels much better winning giving baggers a spot than playing even up...tough to fade some matches, but I find it more satisfying beating someone you play even with spotting them 1-2 games in APA.