APA Sharking Question

[KMRUNOUT]

It makes me a bad person because an APA 4 claims to be sharked because one of the dozen people around the table got up to do something? Your high road here doesn't lead anywhere. This is why people don't care about the game.. too many people take it and themselves too seriously. I've seen people claim others sneezed to shark them, seen people take two minutes on a shot because somebody walked 20 feet away, etc. Pool has too many whiners. This is league, nobody should expect a dozen people to act like statues for 4 or 5 hours while a couple of people knock balls around the table.

"This is league, nobody should expect..." right there, that is the attitude that perpetuates the fact that many serious players look down on league play. Courtesy does not require a certain setting, league, pro tournament, pool game, skill level, or anything else. It requires 2 or more humans and that is it. You are adding a lot of stuff to the situation in an attempt to make a reasonable concern sound unreasonable. No one said anything about a dozen people. This conversation is about the etiquette between you and your opponent. I think mutual respect is something to be taken seriously.

I don't know if it is an APA rule or a local bylaw, but we must stay 6 feet away from the table while the opponent is shooting, and not stand or move in their line of sight while they are shooting. I see *no problem* with this whatsoever. You can still get your drinks, talk with your friends, etc...It's just a tiny bit of extra effort to be aware of the pool match and be respectful of the players. It is *really easy* to accomplish if you are one of the players!

Its just like drivers on the highway. Most people do not regularly check their rear view mirror. They either simply don't care what is going on behind them, or don't recognize the value of knowing your surroundings, being aware of the other traffic, being aware *well in advance* if someone is catching up to you and looking to pass. There is no rule saying to check your rear view mirror frequently. If you don't, though, you are pretty likely a bad driver, or at least a self centered driver.

We as people can either work together or work for ourselves. Most favor the second goal because it simply requires less personal development...they just don't know better.

The atmosphere at league night is not something set in stone. Those who wish to be friendly and respectful can *lead* those who don't know any better.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Zphix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqziQX7eEv0

Since when do hot chicks on the table count as distractions/sharks?

 

[asianevil]

That is fine, but in the beginning you felt the need to say that "I was sure she would make it so I got up from my seat"

You being sure of it, and doing something because of that, like moving around, pretty much says that you are conceding the shot. Outside of the league, you will be asked if you are conceding, but in the league, with inexperienced players, it puts more pressure on the shooter creating a situation if they miss.

Agreed.

Started playing in APA last year, 2013. One thing that I notice is which quite common is movement of the opposing player as "conceding the shot". Putting down the cue and getting up to rack as the shooting player is still down on the shot. When the shooter does miss, its not "conceded". This annoys the heck of me.

Regardless of all combined movement in the poolhall/bar, the opposing player should not be moving at all during the shot making process. Whoever is directly involved with the game at hand should NOT be moving, or it should be considered sharking.

Want this culture/industry to grow and move forward? Play this game as gentlemen/women and have some integrity.

Here are some of examples of sharking that I have seen and/or been the victim of (in all of my pool experience):
Moving in the line of sight or peripheral vision of the shooter.
-Motion to get up and rack.
-Motion your cue at the precise moment of shooting
-Motion your arm at the precise moment of shooting
-Motion any part of your body at the precise moment of shooting.
Talking loud enough for the shooter to hear, regardless of topic.
Creaking chair loud enough to distract the shooter....yes this one happened to me with someone I used to gamble with....this guy would try to find a very creaky stool to sit on and move ever so slightly to create the sound....you just need to be there.
Get up to go to the restroom during shooter's turn.
Pass gas.
Call a friend over and start joking and talking/laughing.

Am I a bit anal about my turn at table? Perhaps...but this is competition regardless what is at stake.

People do some "off the wall" things when under pressure. These are all things that people do to break your concentration, rhythm, or zone.

My suggestion is to stay in your seat or your position (if standing up) until its your turn at the table. Give your opponent no reason to call foul....in this case, sharking.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I understand - like I said I didn't think this was that big a deal at the time but I do know better than to get up and move around during a match.

I'm not saying that sharking is ok - but I am saying that I don't like my pool etiquette to be attacked based on an isolated incident.

In my head it wasn't a problem whether I was conceding or not - after her team captain came over (she's also the league rep) I offered to give her the first game if it was a legitimate problem but she refused.

#DONE.

Wow nice diagram! I hear you. Don't forget your story is the only incident of any kind, good or bad, that I and I'm sure many other posters have heard about. Based on your picture I don't see your walk being physically distracting, but it may come off as disrespectful, which for many is even tougher to deal with.

I guess in the future, like others have said...if you want to concede a game, just get up and say "that's good". If you don't want to concede the game, probably best to sit still and wait for your turn to get up or do anything. If someone calls out to you give them the "1 sec" sign and just wait.

Anyway, glad to see you have a good attitude about this.

KMRUNOUT

 

[TheNewSharkster]

You can exhibit all sorts of bad sportsmanship without technically breaking any rules. I checked the APA rulebook...I couldn't find one thing saying you couldn't stand up and start doing a chicken dance in front of your opponent. Yet people somehow still know not to do this. It is surprising and depressing to hear people say what you have just said. You are certainly not alone. Your screen name makes your reply less surprising. If everyone on earth agreed with you, you would still be wrong.

"Sometimes people will walk in front of shots. It happens". Yup, a lot of stuff happens. Some of that stuff is stupid, disrespectful, and easily avoided. The OP's actions fall into that last category. Best outcome for him is to recognize the selfish attitude and learn to be more respectful towards his opponents in the future. That, of course, will require a level of humility that if present to begin with, the situation would probably have never happened. Still I try to keep faith that my fellow man has the capacity to grow.

KMRUNOUT

I don't understand why some people are so sensitive. Talking with your teammates is part of league play. As long as you don't interrupt the person shooting it isn't sharking. IMO walking over to talk with the captain while your opponent is shooting shouldn't be sharking.

For the record I ALWAYS make a conscience effort to not stand in front of or shark my opponents. Ask anybody who knows me.

No need to get nasty because we don't agree with each other!

 

[Banks]

This is why people don't care about the game.. too many people take it and themselves too seriously.

"This is league, nobody should expect..." right there, that is the attitude that perpetuates the fact that many serious players look down on league play.

..

I don't know if it is an APA rule or a local bylaw, but we must stay 6 feet away from the table while the opponent is shooting, and not stand or move in their line of sight while they are shooting. I see *no problem* with this whatsoever. You can still get your drinks, talk with your friends, etc...It's just a tiny bit of extra effort to be aware of the pool match and be respectful of the players. It is *really easy* to accomplish if you are one of the players!

Its just like drivers on the highway. Most people do not regularly check their rear view mirror. They either simply don't care what is going on behind them, or don't recognize the value of knowing your surroundings, being aware of the other traffic, being aware *well in advance* if someone is catching up to you and looking to pass. There is no rule saying to check your rear view mirror frequently. If you don't, though, you are pretty likely a bad driver, or at least a self centered driver.

We as people can either work together or work for ourselves. Most favor the second goal because it simply requires less personal development...they just don't know better.

The atmosphere at league night is not something set in stone. Those who wish to be friendly and respectful can *lead* those who don't know any better.

KMRUNOUT

I think my quote above fits perfectly with the top of your quote. He was already sitting dead center or close to it according to his picture above. If he then said he was getting out of the way, would it have been a different response from the crowd here? I've played with a couple of people in this thread and I don't go around walking in their line of sight intentionally or making a scene. I will, however, get up and go talk to somebody or go find my beer now and then. I even had a friend once accuse me of sharking because I called another friend over to watch a hit when we were playing cheap. I told him what I thought and didn't even want the money after all that, not worth it.

The 6' thing is probably a by-law, because I don't remember having seen such a thing here, but I could be wrong.

I know what's easy to accomplish and one of those things that is just as easy is taking responsibility for your own misses. Come on now, missed by a diamond? I couldn't kick somebody and have it result in that bad of a shot. I think some people do pull sharking moves, but more than that complain about sharking that's only in their minds.

 

[Zphix]

I was sure she'd make the shot - but I didn't get up out of concession I got up because my team mate waved me over.

I don't care if the ball is hanging in the pocket, my opponent could follow in (as I've seen happen) - so there's no need to really concede in the APA.

Now I know that getting up is a sign of conceding but I didn't at the time.

Either way - what's done is done and now I know better for next time...

 

[vrrdriver]

in perspective...

if during the Mosconi Cup, SVB got up out of his chair to go talk to his captain at the precise moment Appleton was down shooting the nine. Who wouldn't consider that sharking???

Shame on your captain for trying to get your attention at that moment, and shame on you for getting up. I can't think of anything so important that couldn't wait 10 seconds for your opponent to complete their inning.

I always try to be respectful of my opponent, especially so when they are at the table, because you have no idea what may or may not shark them.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

if during the Mosconi Cup, SVB got up out of his chair to go talk to his captain at the precise moment Appleton was down shooting the nine. Who wouldn't consider that sharking???

Shame on your captain for trying to get your attention at that moment, and shame on you for getting up. I can't think of anything so important that couldn't wait 10 seconds for your opponent to complete their inning.

I always try to be respectful of my opponent, especially so when they are at the table, because you have no idea what may or may not shark them.

You seem to be confused. This is league play at a bar. Not the Mosconi cup. Unfortunately bar play means you don't always have optimal seating and sometimes you need to move in order to speak with your teammates.

 

[bwally]

But there is no reason that I can think of for you to speak to your teammates while your opponent is at the table. You sit, be quiet and respectful while your opponent is at the table.

You seem to be confused. This is league play at a bar. Not the Mosconi cup. Unfortunately bar play means you don't always have optimal seating and sometimes you need to move in order to speak with your teammates.

 

[Zphix]

But there is no reason that I can think of for you to speak to your teammates while your opponent is at the table. You sit, be quiet and respectful while your opponent is at the table.

I will say this one more time and then I am done commenting.

It doesn't matter what my team mate waved me over for - I saw him wave, saw my opponent marking her pocket thinking she was going to make it. She wasn't down on her shot so I got up to see what he waved me over for.

In weighing the two --- it didn't seem like that big of a deal!

I didn't get up to talk to him - I got up because he waved me over.

DONE.

 

[vrrdriver]

You seem to be confused. This is league play at a bar. Not the Mosconi cup. Unfortunately bar play means you don't always have optimal seating and sometimes you need to move in order to speak with your teammates.

agreed. but the question here is timing. you shouldn't feel the need to get up and move around and speak to your teammates when your opponent is trying to complete their inning. Show your opponent the respect they deserve by keeping it in park. If you happen to be in the line of their shot, you should've moved when they marked the pocket.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

But there is no reason that I can think of for you to speak to your teammates while your opponent is at the table. You sit, be quiet and respectful while your opponent is at the table.

If the person was talking to his opponent during her shot that would be sharking. If the person had broke down his cue that would have been a loss of game. Walking over to talk with you captain is perfectly acceptable. The guy said she wasn't even down on her shot when he walked by. What is the dig deal? Who cares who he talks with while she was at the table.

Remember that APA league is supposed to be fun. It is not a serious competition until you compete at the national level where you are seated away from your team anyways.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I don't understand why some people are so sensitive. Talking with your teammates is part of league play. As long as you don't interrupt the person shooting it isn't sharking. IMO walking over to talk with the captain while your opponent is shooting shouldn't be sharking.

For the record I ALWAYS make a conscience effort to not stand in front of or shark my opponents. Ask anybody who knows me.

No need to get nasty because we don't agree with each other!

This provides a great analogy. I didn't see one nasty thing in my post. I'm sorry you took it that way. This is analogous to your statement that as long as you don't interrupt the shooter it's not sharking. Clearly that doesn't work because in this threads exams the OP didn't believe he interrupted the shooter, and the shooter believed he *did* (as did the vast majority of posters in this thread). Just like I didn't see anything "nasty" in my post but somehow you did.

Lets look at it this way: is sitting quietly and motionless my in your chair *ever* sharking? For *anyone*? Seems hard to go wrong that way. Is it really so hard to do?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BRussell]

It makes me a bad person because an APA 4 claims to be sharked because one of the dozen people around the table got up to do something? Your high road here doesn't lead anywhere. This is why people don't care about the game.. too many people take it and themselves too seriously. I've seen people claim others sneezed to shark them, seen people take two minutes on a shot because somebody walked 20 feet away, etc. Pool has too many whiners. This is league, nobody should expect a dozen people to act like statues for 4 or 5 hours while a couple of people knock balls around the table.

Poor etiquette is poor etiquette, even if someone whines about it.

My guess is that most everyone in this thread who has said that getting up was bad form would also say that whining about sharking after you miss is also bad form. But you're defending one bad behavior while criticizing another as being the cause of pool's current misfortune. Or do I have that wrong?

 

[justadub]

But there is no reason that I can think of for you to speak to your teammates while your opponent is at the table. You sit, be quiet and respectful while your opponent is at the table.

This is league, and it's APA. You are allowed (and encouraged) to talk with your teammates when its not your turn. (So long as you aren't loud or being a distraction.)

It's OK.

You aren't allowed to talk with your teammates when its your turn unless you take a time out. "Your turn" is essentially when the balls stop moving on the shot that your opponent misses.

There are no rules in APA that prohibit movement around the table, other than the general umbrella "good sportsmanship" rules.

There is a matter of etiquette, but etiquette isn't a rule, in APA.

In the matter of the OP, I think it was poor timing, and that he may very well have sharked his opponent a bit, but I don't believe that he was way out of line. As others have pointed out, many times there aren't seats for players to sit in near the table, and in many places (bars) there are a lot of people jammed into a small space. And a lot of moving around.

Myself, I do try to stay still while my opponent is shooting. I'm not always seated, and I'm not always in the same place. I can very well be talking with other people. Actually, its quite likely. I could be at the bar or in the bathroom, tho its not common. I can be on the phone, if someone at my place of employment needs me.

APA is a social league. We are supposed to be having fun. We do have to try to exhibit good sportsmanship. But its supposed to be fun.

We have fun.

 

[Banks]

Poor etiquette is poor etiquette, even if someone whines about it.

My guess is that most everyone in this thread who has said that getting up was bad form would also say that whining about sharking after you miss is also bad form. But you're defending one bad behavior while criticizing another as being the cause of pool's current misfortune. Or do I have that wrong?

No, I'm saying that many pool players just whine ad nauseum about things and when they do something wrong it isn't their fault. He could've bent over to tie his shoe and the person at the next table over could've blamed him for miscueing.

So, with all of these things saying that the OP was out of line, I'm not sure I saw a single person blaming the opponent for sharking when she was constantly talking during his turn at the table and not paying attention.

I was going to start a tournament, but the more people start complaining before I even started it, the more I decided that I'd just let those that actually have fun playing use the tables instead, without throwing good money at bad. This thread is a good example of that.

Is it any wonder why pool halls are dying off? People don't go there to have fun, because there really isn't any to be had in a place like that.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

This provides a great analogy. I didn't see one nasty thing in my post. I'm sorry you took it that way. This is analogous to your statement that as long as you don't interrupt the shooter it's not sharking. Clearly that doesn't work because in this threads exams the OP didn't believe he interrupted the shooter, and the shooter believed he *did* (as did the vast majority of posters in this thread). Just like I didn't see anything "nasty" in my post but somehow you did.

Lets look at it this way: is sitting quietly and motionless my in your chair *ever* sharking? For *anyone*? Seems hard to go wrong that way. Is it really so hard to do?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You were nasty. Read what you said:

It is surprising and depressing to hear people say what you have just said. You are certainly not alone. Your screen name makes your reply less surprising. If everyone on earth agreed with you, you would still be wrong.

 

[itsfroze]

Some people in the APA get upset when people talk bad about the APA.
They feel like these people are disrespecting them/their league ect.

You need to give respect to others in order to expect it.
If the league players don't give each other respect then how can they
expect others to give them respect.

I have tried to shoot next to leagues many times when there were no other tables and most
of the time the other player and I would just give up and quit. How many times can you ask people
standing three feet from your table with their backs to you to excuse me please, just so you have room to shoot ?
It's simply not that hard to figure out you're standing where you shouldn't be.

I don't even try to play next to the leagues anymore. I'd rather just wait for a table away from the league tables
to open or just not play. It a simple matter of showing some consideration for others, no more no less.

 

[poolguy4u]

You seem to be confused. This is league play at a bar. Not the Mosconi cup. Unfortunately bar play means you don't always have optimal seating and sometimes you need to move in order to speak with your teammates.

For real, 90% of APA players never heard of the Mosconi Cup.

It's just not important. Just an exhibition anyway.


Now APA, this is the most important night of the week for many.

These are people that go to work during the day and talk about how league night was.


Mosconi Cup...never heard of it. :thumbup: