APA Unmarked Pocket Cost my Rackess, then the Match

[trob]

I guess we are forunate that are we play in is close and every one is near the table. Any time someone forgets to put a pad someone always reminds them which is allowed in the Apa so it’s pretty rare for it to happen. I actually saw it happen more in our local bca’s leagues. A few of them had this rule over the years but in bca no one outside of the game can remind you to mark the pocket.

 

[RichSchultz]

What I love about this thread is that All the league players reading it will never forget to mark their pocket now. We will think of this thread.

 

[lorider]

What I love about this thread is that All the league players reading it will never forget to mark their pocket now. We will think of this thread.

Can't speak for the others on here but I am still gonna do what I always do. Maybe I will see another 3 crappy move like this over the next 1500 matches

 

[Maniac]

I would never accept a victory if my opponent forgot to mark the pocket on an obvious shot. There is no pride in that at all. Quite frankly I’d feel embarrassed to accept it

IMHO, this is the best post in the thread. Simple and gets right to the heart of the matter.

No offense to anyone on the forum, but if you are one of the persons that would take a win on an obvious 8-ball that is not marked, you're not the kind of player I would choose not to play with... if I had a choice.

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

This scenario does remind me of an interesting scenario back when I was in the Army, stationed in Germany, around 2000. I was playing in a pool tournament at the large rec center near Mannheim, and in the first or second round, I played a woman. Women automatically got 2 games on the wire in a race to 5.

My female opponent was a decent player and managed to get 2 games legitimately, and when I had pocketed the 9 ball in my 5th game, I went over to shake her hand. With a flat look on her face, she said "You only have 4 games." I looked at her with a look of shock on my face that she was pulling this, and then proceeded to describe all 5 winning layouts/combos/caroms/etc.

After I finished, she said, "You only have 4 games." Her fellow, who was sitting there watching the match, took her side. As usual at that time, my wife was THERE, but had gotten bored and wandered off, leaving me no backup. I knew that in the end, it would be their word against mine.

I got pissed, and said "Whatever", and had her rack again. I lost my focus and ran down to one of the last 3/4 balls, and missed a shot, and she won.

Now, I am REALLY pissed. I cut through the rest of the field with a vengeance (including a good player that I played at my last duty station, who knew me only before my game took a huge leap) and got back to the finals.

Well, given the subject of this thread, did you start "marking" your wins with pennies under the rail after that?

Maniac

 

[jokrswylde]

IMHO, this is the best post in the thread. Simple and gets right to the heart of the matter.

No offense to anyone on the forum, but if you are one of the persons that would take a win on an obvious 8-ball that is not marked, you're not the kind of player I would choose not to play with... if I had a choice.

Maniac

While I agree with your thoughts, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there are situations in a team setting where it may not be up to the winning player to accept the win or not. It falls on the team captain on whether to accept it or not...

 

[Maniac]

While I agree with your thoughts, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there are situations in a team setting where it may not be up to the winning player to accept the win or not. It falls on the team captain on whether to accept it or not...

I agree. And although I DO play in leagues, this is why I'm not a big fan of team pool. I don't like others depending on the outcome of my matches.

Maniac

 

[sixwillwin]

Why didn’t your teammates yell out “patch it” or “mark it”. They can


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[RichSchultz]

While I agree with your thoughts, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there are situations in a team setting where it may not be up to the winning player to accept the win or not. It falls on the team captain on whether to accept it or not...

As captain, I will always decide based on my personal code of ethics/integrity....what would my garndmother think? If i forfeit the match cuz it’s the right thing to do, teammates are free to leave the team if they disagree or have a different value set.

 

[jeremy8000]

I'm of the view that one wins a game by winning a game, but when something like this happens - losing the game by the technicality of not specifying the pocket - one's anger should be directed at the rule, not the opponent (though I would hold them accountable on technicalities going forward that I'd normally be lenient on with others).

A good showing of sportsmanship by the opponent would be to remind you to mark the pocket, but one can't accuse someone of bad sportsmanship for following the letter of the rules. Kind of like how some will fail to cite their own fouls and hope the opponent doesn't know to ask for or take ball-in-hand.

I make it a point of marking the pocket every game, whether my opponent says 'calling it is fine' or not, so that the habit is in place to avoid an issue in higher level tournaments. Learned that lesson the hard way once. It's one of those technical errors you make once then never repeat.

 

[ctyhntr]

That's your problem right there, you have honesty, integrity and pride.
Unfortunately, not everyone who play's APA have those qualities. Believe it or not, some will see sandbagging as ok.

This is why the APA rules have to be explicit and other rules such as you can demand your opponent show proof of ID. Not every location will have a ref or league rep to supervise. For a weekly league of over 250K, running for the last 30-40 years, I think they did a pretty good job.

I would never accept a victory if my opponent forgot to mark the pocket on an obvious shot. There is no pride in that at all. Quite frankly I’d feel embarrassed to accept it

 

[Maniac]

I make it a point of marking the pocket every game, whether my opponent says 'calling it is fine' or not

The reason I don't like marking a pocket in general is this example:

You are on a pretty good run. You get down to the 8-ball. The cue ball and the 8-ball are on opposite ends of the table with the obvious shot being into a far corner pocket. You either have to dig into your pocket or walk over to where your "stuff" is (cue holder, quarters, etc.) and retrieve your pocket marker, then place it by the intended pocket, walk all the way around the table to where the cue ball sits and proceed to attempt a 7-foot shot now that you're out of your rhythm from all the BS you had to do after you pocketed your last object ball.

Then there's the time factor involved. After performing all the previously mentioned BS exercises, you miss the shot. Then you have to repeat all the BS movements in reverse (retrieving your marker) while you or your opponent waits for you to get out of the way and get settled back down in your seat.

Then lastly, how many times have you (or any one else) been down on a shot and have the opponent rush back to the table to retrieve his/her pocket marker that they forgot to pick up after missing the 8-ball?

All this crap can be avoided by simply calling the pocket. The key to this is to make darn sure you point your cue stick directly at and near to the pocket you intend to shoot at. It would also be prudent to make sure that you and your opponent are not the only ones to see where you have called your pocket. A simple agreement to this before the lag and all the BS is kept out of the match.

As far as keeping the habit of marking the pocket....really??? In playoffs, qualifiers, and/or Vegas, just make sure your teammates understand that this is a TEAM event and that for all possible, they should be tableside to aid in such matters as marking the pocket (or reminding which correct ball/ball category to shoot). Is this too much to ask of your teammates in such an endeavor as important as this?

Just my humble opinions.

Maniac (likes to leave the pool hall on league nights BEFORE midnight)

 

[justadub]

I would never accept a victory if my opponent forgot to mark the pocket on an obvious shot. There is no pride in that at all. Quite frankly I’d feel embarrassed to accept it

I won't do it in regular session....I would make it a point to take the player aside and tell them what could happen with many players, and that they should be aware of that. It would have to be a new player in our division, all the regulars know the deal. I do that with any APA-specific rule.

In Tri Cups...well....as much as I would hate to do it, I would have to think of my team. The odds of that happening in Tri Cups around here is pretty much nil, so I don't worry much about the odds of being put in that situation.

 

[jviss]

I looked up "virtue signaling" in the dictionary and I found this:

I would never accept a victory if my opponent forgot to mark the pocket on an obvious shot. There is no pride in that at all. Quite frankly I’d feel embarrassed to accept it

FWIW:
vir·tue sig·nal·ing
noun: virtue signalling
the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I've been playing in APA for 8 months, I've never not marked a pocket. If an opponent doesn't mark their pocket I will tell them after the fact but won't take the win; however, if me or any of my teammates were to lose for not marking the pocket I would be relentless in my pursuit of kicking their ass at the table. Forever.

Overall I think it's a good rule and since it applies to everyone it's not an issue. If you don't like it, don't play in the APA. If you think it affects your game then practice and figure out how to make it NOT affect your game. Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I looked up "virtue signaling" in the dictionary and I found this:



FWIW:
vir·tue sig·nal·ing
noun: virtue signalling
the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Given that the entire POINT of the thread was for the OP to ask people's opinion on the morals/ethics of the situation, what is the dictionary word for unnecessary arsehole criticizing of someone doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing?

:grin-square::wink:

In case I was not being clear enough, "virtue signalling" is UNSOLICITED, by definition. This opinion was very much SOLICITED.

Boom.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

The reason I don't like marking a pocket in general is this example:

You are on a pretty good run. You get down to the 8-ball. The cue ball and the 8-ball are on opposite ends of the table with the obvious shot being into a far corner pocket. You either have to dig into your pocket or walk over to where your "stuff" is (cue holder, quarters, etc.) and retrieve your pocket marker, then place it by the intended pocket, walk all the way around the table to where the cue ball sits and proceed to attempt a 7-foot shot now that you're out of your rhythm from all the BS you had to do after you pocketed your last object ball.

Then there's the time factor involved. After performing all the previously mentioned BS exercises, you miss the shot. Then you have to repeat all the BS movements in reverse (retrieving your marker) while you or your opponent waits for you to get out of the way and get settled back down in your seat.

Then lastly, how many times have you (or any one else) been down on a shot and have the opponent rush back to the table to retrieve his/her pocket marker that they forgot to pick up after missing the 8-ball?

All this crap can be avoided by simply calling the pocket. The key to this is to make darn sure you point your cue stick directly at and near to the pocket you intend to shoot at. It would also be prudent to make sure that you and your opponent are not the only ones to see where you have called your pocket. A simple agreement to this before the lag and all the BS is kept out of the match.

As far as keeping the habit of marking the pocket....really??? In playoffs, qualifiers, and/or Vegas, just make sure your teammates understand that this is a TEAM event and that for all possible, they should be tableside to aid in such matters as marking the pocket (or reminding which correct ball/ball category to shoot). Is this too much to ask of your teammates in such an endeavor as important as this?

Just my humble opinions.

Maniac (likes to leave the pool hall on league nights BEFORE midnight)

Pointing the stick at the pocket creates unecessary ambiguity when competing against beginning players, or players with an ill-developed sense of fair play.

That's the entire reason why APA rules are to mark the pocket, as there is absolutely no possible ambiguity. Doesn't matter if the opponent was looking at you when you "called" the pocket or not. It gives the opponent zero opportunity to debate the validity of the shot. The only thing that matters to anyone in the room at the exact moment you pull the shot is whether the pocket is marked or not. At the exact instant you stroke on the 8 ball, someone from across the room can confirm it was a legal call, just from the marked pocket.

Of course, I stopped playing APA long ago, because I wanna play with good players, who are good sportsmen/women. But I very much understand the reasoning behind marking the pocket, given the demographics of the APA players.

 

[Racky BallBoa]

I believe there should be a consequence for not complying with APA rule of “marking the pocket”, but I also believe that the consequence of losing the game when the shooter pockets the 8 but forgets to mark the pocket is just too severe. It just doesn’t make sense to get penalized so severely for just being “forgetful”. Hypothetically, a shooter could break and make a ball and then run the table and the 8 ball could be located about 1 inch in front of the center of the corner pocket and then the shooter proceeds to pocket the 8 in the most obvious pocket but forgets to mark the pocket and loses the game to his opponent. Really!, does the opponent really deserve the win? No, I don’t think so.

A more reasonable and appropriate consequence would be that the shooter does not win the game after pocketing the 8 ball, and the 8 ball is then spotted, and then the opponent gets ball-in-hand.

Bottom line - the consequence should be changed to a less severe, more reasonable penalty.

 

[jviss]

I believe there should be a consequence for not complying with APA rule of “marking the pocket”, but I also believe that the consequence of losing the game when the shooter pockets the 8 but forgets to mark the pocket is just too severe. It just doesn’t make sense to get penalized so severely for just being “forgetful”. Hypothetically, a shooter could break and make a ball and then run the table and the 8 ball could be located about 1 inch in front of the center of the corner pocket and then the shooter proceeds to pocket the 8 in the most obvious pocket but forgets to mark the pocket and loses the game to his opponent. Really!, does the opponent really deserve the win? No, I don’t think so.

A more reasonable and appropriate consequence would be that the shooter does not win the game after pocketing the 8 ball, and the 8 ball is then spotted, and then the opponent gets ball-in-hand.

Bottom line - the consequence should be changed to a less severe, more reasonable penalty.

I hear what you're saying, but, really, you're saying you don't like this rule so let's make another rule. Does that make sense?

What's wrong with just following the rules, as is, or changing them???

 

[jviss]

Given that the entire POINT of the thread was for the OP to ask people's opinion on the morals/ethics of the situation, what is the dictionary word for unnecessary arsehole criticizing of someone doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing?

:grin-square::wink:

In case I was not being clear enough, "virtue signalling" is UNSOLICITED, by definition. This opinion was very much SOLICITED.

Boom.

I confess that I don't get your point. What is it that someone was doing, that was exactly what they were supposed to be doing? I'm in the "mark the pocket, follow the rules" camp.