APA Unmarked Pocket Cost my Rackess, then the Match

im probably the best pool player in this thread. so my opinion holds more weight than the others. it's a dumb rule and it breaks up my rhythm when im running balls. If anyone tried to take a win on an obvious 8 i would sue their a$$.

Oh but really though when i play a 6-7 usually we'll decide to just call the 8 unless it's a certain team with an annoying capt. So many of the other matches take forever that i almost feel an obligation to run out and quickly and if I miss to just let my opponent run out quickly, without marking, so i can throw the balls back on the table and keep rolling. I get the reason for the rule but i also think if 2 people decide to forget it then that's that and no one can decide on the hill hill game that all the sudden its rules time and you just lost. That's a D move.
 
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Racky BallBoa said:
I never realized that some APA regulated leagues used coin-op tables, so I guess that would be a valid issue. I can hardly remember the last time I played on a coin-op table, maybe back in the 1970s once or twice...


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VNEA has the same rule. And as the name implies, they are all played on Valley BBs.
 
justadub said:
The flip side of that is that if the penalty is so stiff, why don't people pay more attention to the rule?

I realize we're all just arguing semantics here...it beats work, certainly
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That's a pretty good point. Stiff penalties do serve as an effective deterrent and makes you think twice about the consequences.
 
jviss said:
This post made me go read the APA rules. They are quite clear about marking the pocket; it's mentioned nine times, three or four of which saying it's a requirement.

So, a league operator who was not present and witnessing the game says that he would reverse a win, in contradiction of the clear, unambiguous, written rules, because of a sense of "spirit of the rule," when such interpretation of spirit is mentioned nowhere in the rules. That would be quite remarkable. I don't doubt he said that, I'm just saying that it would be remarkable for a league operator to do that. How would he explain it to your opponent, and their team?
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I would start by telling them to go read the manual again, starting with page four. Then I would tell them to read the first paragraph of the Game Rules (Page 42 of the team manual, page 1 of the rules booklet). Then I would ask them if they still believe "spirit of the rules" is mentioned nowhere. Then I would point out 16(d) on page 52 of the team manual (page 16 of the rules booklet), where the opportunity to allow the shot is implied.

That said, the language in the rules does state that it is loss of game if you fail to properly mark the pocket and your opponent calls loss of game. So whenever that situation comes up (and it comes up often) and I am consulted for a ruling, I rule with the manual. The manual doesn't say I can make a different call if I feel one side or the other is not playing within the spirit of the rules. But I do make it clear to the team who is stealing the game that they are not playing within the spirit of the rules. If they insist on taking the game, I will make that call, then politely let them know that they should never ask me to give them a break on any future ruling.
 
APA Operator said:
I would start by telling them to go read the manual again, starting with page four. Then I would tell them to read the first paragraph of the Game Rules (Page 42 of the team manual, page 1 of the rules booklet). Then I would ask them if they still believe "spirit of the rules" is mentioned nowhere. Then I would point out 16(d) on page 52 of the team manual (page 16 of the rules booklet), where the opportunity to allow the shot is implied.

That said, the language in the rules does state that it is loss of game if you fail to properly mark the pocket and your opponent calls loss of game. So whenever that situation comes up (and it comes up often) and I am consulted for a ruling, I rule with the manual. The manual doesn't say I can make a different call if I feel one side or the other is not playing within the spirit of the rules. But I do make it clear to the team who is stealing the game that they are not playing within the spirit of the rules. If they insist on taking the game, I will make that call, then politely let them know that they should never ask me to give them a break on any future ruling.
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I have seen it happen a few times, where a team player would forget to mark the pocket and proceed to pocket the 8 ball, and the opposing team would point out their mistake, but let it go in the "spirit of the rules". I think the "spirit of the rules" would make for a good thread to find out what it means and/or implies to different players.
 
APA Operator said:
I would start by telling them to go read the manual again, starting with page four. Then I would tell them to read the first paragraph of the Game Rules (Page 42 of the team manual, page 1 of the rules booklet). Then I would ask them if they still believe "spirit of the rules" is mentioned nowhere. Then I would point out 16(d) on page 52 of the team manual (page 16 of the rules booklet), where the opportunity to allow the shot is implied.

That said, the language in the rules does state that it is loss of game if you fail to properly mark the pocket and your opponent calls loss of game. So whenever that situation comes up (and it comes up often) and I am consulted for a ruling, I rule with the manual. The manual doesn't say I can make a different call if I feel one side or the other is not playing within the spirit of the rules. But I do make it clear to the team who is stealing the game that they are not playing within the spirit of the rules. If they insist on taking the game, I will make that call, then politely let them know that they should never ask me to give them a break on any future ruling.
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Thank you for the "official" insight. A lot of good input on this topic.

It's remarkable that anyone would even consider consulting you for such a ruling. The pocket was either patched, or it wasn't. If it wasn't, and they're called on it, they don't have a leg to stand on. There's no room for ambiguity. At that point, they're simply asking for an exception, which seems ridiculous.
 
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JessEm said:
Thank you for the "official" insight. A lot of good input on this topic.

It's remarkable that anyone would even consider consulting you for such a ruling. The pocket was either patched, or it wasn't. If it wasn't, and they're called on it, they don't have a leg to stand on. There's no room for ambiguity. At that point, they're simply asking for an exception, which seems ridiculous.
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I have not read every post in this thread but from what I have read no one is disputing the rule per se. I think most posters on here are lamenting the lack of sportsmanship ....for lack if a better term at the moment..from people who use that rule to win a match when they fail to do it with their cue.

I mentioned earlier of an incident I witnessed when a player called that rule on his opponent in a hill-hill match after neither player marking the pocket in the previous 8 racks of that match.

Douchbaggery as some have said. Kinda like in a 9 ball match I had once when my opponent conceded an easy shot on the 9 to me in a couple racks during the match and then had me shoot the 9 in with bih for the winning shot of the match.
 
lorider said:
I have not read every post in this thread but from what I have read no one is disputing the rule per se. I think most posters on here are lamenting the lack of sportsmanship ....for lack if a better term at the moment..from people who use that rule to win a match when they fail to do it with their cue.

I mentioned earlier of an incident I witnessed when a player called that rule on his opponent in a hill-hill match after neither player marking the pocket in the previous 8 racks of that match.

Douchbaggery as some have said. Kinda like in a 9 ball match I had once when my opponent conceded an easy shot on the 9 to me in a couple racks during the match and then had me shoot the 9 in with bih for the winning shot of the match.
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lorider, I read your story and if ever there was a scenario for a Director to overrule a rule, IMO yours would be it.

8 games of not marking the pocket is more than enough precedent to not allow the loser to play the rule card after the hill-hill game.
 
Here is a fun fact - the APA does not specify a code to be used for Did Not Mark the Pocket in the 8 ball scorecheet. They have on for scratch on the 8 (8S), and early 8 (E8) and Wrong Pocket (8WP).

I know that some league operators use a code for the DNMP, but it is not in the official scoresheet. My league does not.

I am not sure why this is.
 
lorider said:
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Douchbaggery as some have said. Kinda like in a 9 ball match I had once when my opponent conceded an easy shot on the 9 to me in a couple racks during the match and then had me shoot the 9 in with bih for the winning shot of the match.
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I don't think you can compare the two. Match ball has tremendous pressure. The potential to choke, even with BIH, is very possible.
 
jimmyco said:
I don't think you can compare the two. Match ball has tremendous pressure. The potential to choke, even with BIH, is very possible.
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In both cases your opponent is using a last resort tactic to win a match.

Tremendous pressure with bih with 1 ball left ? ? Only if you put it on yourself.
 
JessEm said:
It's remarkable that anyone would even consider consulting you for such a ruling. The pocket was either patched, or it wasn't. If it wasn't, and they're called on it, they don't have a leg to stand on. There's no room for ambiguity. At that point, they're simply asking for an exception, which seems ridiculous.
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Actually, the current version of the rule does offer some "wiggle room". It says it's a loss if you fail to properly mark the pocket and your opponent declares loss of game. I think it would be better to explicitly say "It's up to your opponent to declare loss of game, and they should only do so if the intended pocket was not clear", but that is effectively what was intended when the rule was modified.
 
us820 said:
I do run the table.Thats why I’m a 7.I never lay down and In not making somebody lose a game because they didn’t put their bean bag frog on the table.With that I would like to play a 5 who is really a 5,but instead I spot them 3-5 because they don’t score safeties on their sheets or literally add innings and purposely lose once the season is in the crapper.Any smart 7 is a 6.If you don’t see that you are blind.There is a subset of apa guys that just bang balls of the rails on drunk night to have the active ratings for the local tourneys and nobody seems to care they cash nonstop and never move up.

It is great to be able to play with a girlfriend or casual friend player that are not skilled and have them have another similarily skilled player to play against so they can learn the game and gain experience


And its comical marking the 8 when they let you mash balls at random the entire rack.Ive been shit outed on by so many players its not even funny.
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If people don't score correctly that's on you, not them. I have no problem marking our scoresheet and then telling them I did that. We have a very active and approachable LO's and if something doesn't add up they will look into it. And we have a few people that I know dog shots to add innings also, I have found the best way to deal with them is smart safeties to get ball in hand to run the table, my games rarely go more than 1 or 2 innings (I'm a 7 in 8B also, 8 in 9B). Ironically, I played a 9 in 9B this week (regionals) and we had a 7 inning game :eek:

As much as marking the 8B is counter-interuitive, it's simply a rule but I understand how it can get to people having to go put the marker on the pocket. I realized this weekend that I can't score (9B anyways) while playing. In regional's you have to score your own game but my opponent just had cataract surgery so the LO was scoring our match and I was kicking his ass but then she had to leave and I had to score the whole match, completely threw me off and I lost by 8 points. Made me realize I should probably just stay away from tournaments where I have to score. It simply made my match no fun.
 
lorider said:
In both cases your opponent is using a last resort tactic to win a match.
Tremendous pressure with bih with 1 ball left ? ? Only if you put it on yourself.
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When it happens, I think it is 'business'.
I saw Pagalayan have BIH on the 8, two feet from the pocket, and the 9 was hanging in the pocket at the other end of the table. No power or speed shot was necessary to get shape on 9, just roll the cue ball...
He missed the 8.
Draw your own conclusions.
 
Low500 said:
What would you have said to me if I said to you before you shot......"Would you mind if I ask you to shoot this last 9 ball, even though you've got ball in hand... after all it is for the win on the match?"
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If I was to be respectfully asked to shoot the game winning ball with bihi would respectfully reply....sure no problem.

Now my question is...in a race to 5 and conceding two 9 ball shots why why would you ask me to shoot a 3rd 9 ball ....particularly with bih ?

What's the reason behind it ? Game winner ? Each rack conceded was a step closer to winning . I never concede a shot no matter the circumstance . The game is not over till the last ball drops and you are going to have pocket it if you play me. It just makes no sense to me to concede 2 9 ball shots in a match and then request your opponent to shoot a third ....match winner or not particularly with bih.
 
Low500 said:
I have attempted to answer your questions by using red colors.
To me, these conversations can be interesting.
Bye for now
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Your back-and-forth with lowrider, well....I see valid points on both sides.

Your comment about the "pool demons will cause you to miscue or something" brings to mind something that happened to me in a weekly BCA 8-ball tournament five or six years ago.

I was in the semifinal and in the case game. My opponent had one object ball on the table and I was shooting a routine/makeable shot on the 8-ball. My opponent did not concede.

I the process of going down for the shot, somehow the cue slipped out of my bridge hand and the tip made contact with the cue ball. Frustrated, I immediately raked the balls and shook my opponents hand (he would have had a very easy out).

So yeah, the pool demons DO sometimes jump up and bite us in the a**. That said, with the skill-leveled players I usually shoot against, I almost always concede a short, straight-in shot ball-in-hand or not) The only exception to this is 1.) When I'm playing a player that has NOT conceded any 8-balls to me, and 2.) If I'm playing some d*ckhead that just doesn't deserve any freebies.

Maniac
 
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