APA-weird scenario

R

RichSchultz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok folks, got a weird one for ya. Last night, in City Qualifiers, my team did great. I was posted in the 4th match vs a skill level 9 (I am a 5) needing only 27 balls for us to win. This is because that would give us 50 pts and 3 wins.

Anyway, after being down 15-0, I roared back and got to 27 before even my opponent (who needed 75).

My question is, I won, but the match was scored as a 6-14 loss since that's all we needed, and we didn't finish. Did we score that incorrectly? Am I immune from going up to a SL 6, since we didn't finish? I was on the bubble of going up ( and want to...not a sandbagger)...but if I do, it screws us for posting #s.
 
RichSchultz said:
Ok folks, got a weird one for ya. Last night, in City Qualifiers, my team did great. I was posted in the 4th match vs a skill level 9 (I am a 5) needing only 27 balls for us to win. This is because that would give us 50 pts and 3 wins.

Anyway, after being down 15-0, I roared back and got to 27 before even my opponent (who needed 75).

My question is, I won, but the match was scored as a 6-14 loss since that's all we needed, and we didn't finish. Did we score that incorrectly? Am I immune from going up to a SL 6, since we didn't finish? I was on the bubble of going up ( and want to...not a sandbagger)...but if I do, it screws us for posting #s.
Click to expand...

yes you could definitely go up.. why didn't you finish? We finish the match no matter what since it effects your handy cap
 
Our local apa said that was how its done here...i really don't have a better answer. I would have kept on rollin' though, for sure.
 
The match ended because at that point you won. During a normal league night it would have played until completion because you are determining points towards your standing. In a playoff scenario it's just win or lose. If you guys had won the first 3 matches and there was no way for your opponent to make 50 points the match would have been over then. It's also played this way at the Nationals in Vegas.
The computer dictates if your handicap goes up or down. I doubt this would affect you.
 
We never finish those either....

Not sure what they do with the result. Good question for the LO.

Interesting. Good luck going forward
 
9 ball skill level will be based on your balls pocketed per inning, winning or losing should have no affect on your score. This is one of the reasons why players can go up when they lose and down when they win.


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According to my LO, unfinished matches don't get entered in the computer (I play in the Japanese branch of APA).
 
Oh they for sure get entered, that have to get entered to complete the match. I saw a guy go up, because they started a second table matchup and as soon as the rack was broke the other table had an e8, ending the team match. But since they started the second table matchup the guy went up. League operator tried to call St. Louis to have it changed but they wouldn't do anything about it.


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Congratulations Rich.
HLTs have a separate rule book that probably covers early match completions based on team score.
Not to sound harsh, but based on the score I might be compelled to field promote you to a 6 and then drop you back to a 5 after the tournament is over. GL today.
 
Lonestar_jim said:
Congratulations Rich.
HLTs have a separate rule book that probably covers early match completions based on team score.
Not to sound harsh, but based on the score I might be compelled to field promote you to a 6 and then drop you back to a 5 after the tournament is over. GL today.
Click to expand...


Why would you field promote someone without any detail whatsoever in what happened? League operators should not raise anyone during tournament unless they have reasonable evidence someone is cheating. Changing someone skill level has a psychological impact that shouldn't be done lightly, as the entire team is affected.

I wholeheartedly support raising someone who needs to be raised, but if someone wins just because their opponent played terribly (I'm a 9 and have had bad matches too). The other person shouldn't be penalized just because he beat me. It's my job to play at my skill level and if they beat me playing like that, then their score is going to contribute to them going up.

In tournament play, players tend to make different decisions and play more defenses. Why? League play is more casual and relaxed, as that happens every week. Triceps and LTC happen a total of 3 times a year and LTC once a year... People take them more seriously and make their opponent play smarter to beat them. It's hard to voluntarily enter a defensive game at midnight when you have to work at 7 am.

But, in tournaments that happen way less often, and often times on the weekend when time is less critical, you can bet the average player will be much more focused and willing to do whatever it takes to win. These guys and gals are frequently called sandbaggers when in fact they are amateurs with lives outside of pool and have a chance to play an important match.




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Interesting!!! So many viewpoints! Loving everyone's input. Meanwhile, just struggled vs a 6 and still won by 3. We're still in it.
 
Short answer:
Psychology aside, I played a long time SL7 in tri-cup 2 yrs. ago. I was a long time SL6. I beat him hill-hill. Maybe one run out by me early on. Mostly 2 inning games. His game was off. I was made 7 and at that point I was unable to contribute. Don't go to HLTs without a good mix of SLs.

I am still a 6 and was told that was only for the tri-cup.
 
I have been playing APA for years and how handicaps move is still a mystery to me.

I had to play a new player who was a monster 5, only had 10 APA matches, was undefeated, won rackless the week before, and went DOWN to a 4! My league operators explanation was that he had a match early on where he had played a 7 level game, the new match pushed the old score off and he went down. True story.
 
boyersj said:
Oh they for sure get entered, that have to get entered to complete the match. I saw a guy go up, because they started a second table matchup and as soon as the rack was broke the other table had an e8, ending the team match. But since they started the second table matchup the guy went up. League operator tried to call St. Louis to have it changed but they wouldn't do anything about it.


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I would question why you are starting a 2nd table when the current match could very well end the match to begin with.

If I am not mistaken the LO has full control over someone's handicap and can manually move them up or down and can lock it so the computer does not change it as well.

Something here is not adding up correctly.
 
RichSchultz said:
Ok folks, got a weird one for ya. Last night, in City Qualifiers, my team did great. I was posted in the 4th match vs a skill level 9 (I am a 5) needing only 27 balls for us to win. This is because that would give us 50 pts and 3 wins.

Anyway, after being down 15-0, I roared back and got to 27 before even my opponent (who needed 75).

My question is, I won, but the match was scored as a 6-14 loss since that's all we needed, and we didn't finish. Did we score that incorrectly? Am I immune from going up to a SL 6, since we didn't finish? I was on the bubble of going up ( and want to...not a sandbagger)...but if I do, it screws us for posting #s.
Click to expand...

good shooting .:thumbup:

as for finishing early and the score ....you did it correctly. being raised or not...whether you win or lose depends on the number of innings played.

if this happens during regular session we still stop the match....mainly so we can take advantage of going home early on a week night. twice i have been raised to a 6 and coincidentally both times were after beating a 9. the last time was just a couple of weeks ago then i was lowered again after losing to a 4 my next match,
 
benjaminwah said:
I have been playing APA for years and how handicaps move is still a mystery to me.

I had to play a new player who was a monster 5, only had 10 APA matches, was undefeated, won rackless the week before, and went DOWN to a 4! My league operators explanation was that he had a match early on where he had played a 7 level game, the new match pushed the old score off and he went down. True story.
Click to expand...

In it's most simplistic form 8 ball rating is based on average innings it takes you to win games minus your defensive shots. This isn't matches you win as you can lose the match but still average well in the games you win. Your match win/lose has little to do with your rating as I understand it. This is the reason you can actually lose to someone and still move up or lose pretty much every match and stay the same.

Just keep in mind that watching and marking defenses (actually lack there of) is one of the biggest problems with people's handicap. Low skilled players should not be keeping score, nor should a score keeper wait for the opponent to tell them they hit defensive or not. They should be analyzing the table and determining that on their own whether the shooter agrees with it or not.
 
boyersj said:
Why would you field promote someone without any detail whatsoever in what happened? League operators should not raise anyone during tournament unless they have reasonable evidence someone is cheating. Changing someone skill level has a psychological impact that shouldn't be done lightly, as the entire team is affected.

I wholeheartedly support raising someone who needs to be raised, but if someone wins just because their opponent played terribly (I'm a 9 and have had bad matches too). The other person shouldn't be penalized just because he beat me. It's my job to play at my skill level and if they beat me playing like that, then their score is going to contribute to them going up.

In tournament play, players tend to make different decisions and play more defenses. Why? League play is more casual and relaxed, as that happens every week. Triceps and LTC happen a total of 3 times a year and LTC once a year... People take them more seriously and make their opponent play smarter to beat them. It's hard to voluntarily enter a defensive game at midnight when you have to work at 7 am.

But, in tournaments that happen way less often, and often times on the weekend when time is less critical, you can bet the average player will be much more focused and willing to do whatever it takes to win. These guys and gals are frequently called sandbaggers when in fact they are amateurs with lives outside of pool and have a chance to play an important match.




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Click to expand...

i have been the recipient of being raised more than once during tri cups and yet disagree with your 2 1st paragraphs. one time i was raised...lowered...and raised again during tri cups despite going undefeated that weekend.

i do not think its a good idea to lock handicaps during higher level tournaments. that could lead to all kinds of problems.

i do agree with both of your last 2 paragraphs however. during regular session i am a pretty much offensive player with an occasional safe if it helps determine a win. its bad enough watching 2-2's bang balls for 30 innings without me prolonging the night with a bunch of safes.

higher level tournament are a completely different story . i go into defense mode if you will. i once played 26 safes vs a 6 in 8 ball going on to win 4- in 40 innings.....dont recall how many safes he played but it was quite a few.

and yea...i have been called a sand bagger several times.
 
RichSchultz said:
Interesting!!! So many viewpoints! Loving everyone's input. Meanwhile, just struggled vs a 6 and still won by 3. We're still in it.
Click to expand...
Keep it rolling. I wasn't knocking you or implying I would bump you without witnessing the match. Just making you aware of what they can do. GL.
 
lorider said:
good shooting .

as for finishing early and the score ....you did it correctly. being raised or not...whether you win or lose depends on the number of innings played.

if this happens during regular session we still stop the match....mainly so we can take advantage of going home early on a week night. twice i have been raised to a 6 and coincidentally both times were after beating a 9. the last time was just a couple of weeks ago then i was lowered again after losing to a 4 my next match,
Click to expand...
Rich, the Lorider knows his APA stuff.
I am sitting out a session for the first time in 5 years, so I am here keeping the pot well stirred.
 
trob said:
yes you could definitely go up.. why didn't you finish? We finish the match no matter what since it effects your handy cap
Click to expand...

In a playoff or tournament scenario, you should stop when you reach the point where one team cannot be caught. This is because at that point neither player has any incentive to even pocket another ball. You should write "DNF" (for "did not finish") across the scoring section of that match and leave the totals (innings, points, etc.) blank.

Our software allows us to indicate an incomplete match. Scoring it as above makes it obvious that the match was incomplete. Filling in totals for an incomplete match may cause the LO to miss the fact that the match wasn't finished.

And yes, you could go up or down as a result of your play in an incomplete match. If you go up, it was because you were almost there already.
 
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