Are leagues losing members because of inadequate handicap systems?
- Thread starter Snapshot9
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Generally speaking the answer to that question is no.
And, bars aren't the answer. What ever success they have recruiting new players is countered by the type of creature they create; and therefore the image they drag down.
The pool room is the only place where pool league can be grown at a good rate AND create a civil player with respect for the game and others.
Without the nightly supervision of the league operator you get what we have. The lowest common denominator usually more interested in starting and winning an argument than learning to play the game. Or, the lowest common denominator whose goal is to win by unfair competition.
Bar pool reaks. When will the pool community realize this and support the people who invest in the sport? If you play in a bar you are part of the problem. By your participation you are supporting the downfall of pool.
And, bars aren't the answer. What ever success they have recruiting new players is countered by the type of creature they create; and therefore the image they drag down.
The pool room is the only place where pool league can be grown at a good rate AND create a civil player with respect for the game and others.
Without the nightly supervision of the league operator you get what we have. The lowest common denominator usually more interested in starting and winning an argument than learning to play the game. Or, the lowest common denominator whose goal is to win by unfair competition.
Bar pool reaks. When will the pool community realize this and support the people who invest in the sport? If you play in a bar you are part of the problem. By your participation you are supporting the downfall of pool.
Heres my take on APA:
You have to keep in mind what the ultimate goal is... to qualify for vegas.. Not that I condone sandbagging, but that is what you have to do in that league. If you dont, then you cant compete.. You get screwed by the numbers if you dont. Managing your teams handicap is part of the captains responsibility.. I hate telling my players to bag it but it needs to be done.
Another gripe that I have is the way the handicaps are computed. One of the many factors that its based on is how well you play against people in your area.. Now my league operator owns 3 counties, which is about 50+ divisions with each division having approx 10 teams. So if you are in an area with lots of strong players, then your handicap will remain low.. Im a 7 in 8ball but I play in a pretty weak area.. The 7s in strong areas are way better than I am.. Some of these guys are top amatuers in the country. No way Im that calibre of a player. And the 4s and 5s in those areas plays like 7s. So when it comes to city-wide, we cannot compete.... Hence I am forced to sandbag. I recruit players that are truly 5s and 6s and make them 4s or 5s thru sandbagging..Im not proud of what Im doing but it has to be done.. My teammates understands this and we always keep in mind what the ultimate goal is..to go to vegas for nationals!
You have to keep in mind what the ultimate goal is... to qualify for vegas.. Not that I condone sandbagging, but that is what you have to do in that league. If you dont, then you cant compete.. You get screwed by the numbers if you dont. Managing your teams handicap is part of the captains responsibility.. I hate telling my players to bag it but it needs to be done.
Another gripe that I have is the way the handicaps are computed. One of the many factors that its based on is how well you play against people in your area.. Now my league operator owns 3 counties, which is about 50+ divisions with each division having approx 10 teams. So if you are in an area with lots of strong players, then your handicap will remain low.. Im a 7 in 8ball but I play in a pretty weak area.. The 7s in strong areas are way better than I am.. Some of these guys are top amatuers in the country. No way Im that calibre of a player. And the 4s and 5s in those areas plays like 7s. So when it comes to city-wide, we cannot compete.... Hence I am forced to sandbag. I recruit players that are truly 5s and 6s and make them 4s or 5s thru sandbagging..Im not proud of what Im doing but it has to be done.. My teammates understands this and we always keep in mind what the ultimate goal is..to go to vegas for nationals!
Nit said:
I've come to the realization that many bar players have never taken up the opportunity to play in a billiard room league. Those that made the move would never go back to the bar league for reasons; they get to see everyone in their league each week, they are no longer traveling to different places each week and they get to see the pool players playing on 9' tables giving them an opportunity to learn more about how the game.
I know in some regions of the country there are no pool halls and in those cases there is not much choice.
Nit said:
I agree with everything you say, but the last paragraph (IMO) is unrealistic. Some people like playing in bars, like small tables, like "bar-hopping" for their matches. As everyone has pointed out, bar leagues are totally different from pool room leagues on many levels, which means they appeal to a different type of player. As long as there's money to be made and people want to play, bar leagues will be around.
There is no downfall to pool - the public's image of it is brought down by it's behind-the-scenes dirty laundry being aired in places like this, but most of the guilty are playing on big tables unless I'm mistaken.
Disagree.
What goes on on big tables, which I assume you mean the gambling, is not the problem. In fact, if we promoted those "characters" more the sport would grow.
Will we ever pay attention? Why is Kobe Bryant about to be given new endorsement contracts? Why is Michael Irvin part of the pregame and post game shows for the NFL? Why was Deon Sanders there? The list is very long. If success had anything to do with what you are incinuating, these gentlemen would be out of work.
The biggest problem to our image is the lowest common denominator.
If you are joe average american citizen, living in middle to upper middle class neighborhoods or above, (which is the vast majority of the poplulation) I have a question for you. How many of your neighbors leave their house with their cue over their shoulder to play pool league on any given night?
The answer percentage wise is less than 1% and probably less than .1%.
Yet it's very common to see golfers and bowlers leave with their equipment.
Several reasons apply, not the least of which is there is no marketing to get them into pool. Probably because we don't like ourselves. We can't justify spending the money when we already know the result.
But, the main reason is because they don't like what they see when they try. And, I'm not referring to the quality or look of the room.
I also don't think it's a big table v small table issue.
What goes on on big tables, which I assume you mean the gambling, is not the problem. In fact, if we promoted those "characters" more the sport would grow.
Will we ever pay attention? Why is Kobe Bryant about to be given new endorsement contracts? Why is Michael Irvin part of the pregame and post game shows for the NFL? Why was Deon Sanders there? The list is very long. If success had anything to do with what you are incinuating, these gentlemen would be out of work.
The biggest problem to our image is the lowest common denominator.
If you are joe average american citizen, living in middle to upper middle class neighborhoods or above, (which is the vast majority of the poplulation) I have a question for you. How many of your neighbors leave their house with their cue over their shoulder to play pool league on any given night?
The answer percentage wise is less than 1% and probably less than .1%.
Yet it's very common to see golfers and bowlers leave with their equipment.
Several reasons apply, not the least of which is there is no marketing to get them into pool. Probably because we don't like ourselves. We can't justify spending the money when we already know the result.
But, the main reason is because they don't like what they see when they try. And, I'm not referring to the quality or look of the room.
I also don't think it's a big table v small table issue.
Nit said:
No, I didn't mean the gambling - I agree with you in most respects. I was alluding to the "Tony beaten with bat" incident, and the general character of pool players as evidenced by the "Sweet,sweet Marissa" thread. I think most of those players probably play in pool leagues as opposed to bars, but I could be wrong. Hey, I played softball/baseball for many years, and not once did we ever beat anyone with a bat! As far as the drama, if we had formed our teams in trailer parks we would probably experience the same thing.
The NFL and NBA are team sports, and involve physical action. I won't get into the debate of whether pool, darts and bowling are physical sports, but they are quite different from professional basketball, football and baseball becaues of physical training requirements, etc. So the public appeal is vastly different.
None of my neighbors play pool, especially the ones with families. IMO, the choice between playing in a softball league or a pool league has to do with the fact that you are getting physical exercise when you play softball, flag football, etc. Also, pool room simply are not family environments - you drink, smoke, etc., and most people don't want to expose their kids to that and most wives simply aren't interested. I almost never see women my age in pool halls - most are very young and covered with tatoos...not that that's bad
Golfers and bowlers HAVE to leave with their equipment - they don't have golf courses in their yards or bowling alleys in their basements.
I agree with the last bit of your post, but how to you propose changing "what they see"? I personally don't think it will happen, mainly because the participants LIKE what THEY see. If you think of a plan that can get more 40-ish single women involved, I'm for it.
runscott said:
Please. The number of violent incidents in pool rooms doesn't come close to the number in bars.
Great. What does this have to do with the topic.
I was referring to the type of characters they use to promote their sport. No the type of sport. Has nothing to do with the sport itself. Has everything to do with marketing, who does it, how its done, and how the public responds.
Are you trying to confuse the issue? Muddy the water? Why throw in softball? Because you can't think of anything relevant? If the atmosphere was conducive to an good time and fit the potential customers "image" of who he chooses to associate with, then a large enough percentage would participate.
Who said you had to bring the kids? Who said you had to bring the wife? And finally, where the hell do you live? The country is full of nice upscale pool rooms that offer a great envronment for our sport.
And so do pool players to feed their competitiveness. Besides, you have to clear the laundry to play at home.
A nationwide billiard room association, with members who have their own inhouse leagues, that do NOT associate with the current national league programs, who have their own National Championships, would solve the problem. The members, with small contributions, could create an advertising program that would totally change the image of the game, direct the good citizens to the billiard room and pay twice as much prize money as the existing leagues. Keep your antennae up...........developing.
I was trying to respond to your post with no intention of doing battle, but only had to read 2 sentences to realize you aren't reading mine, but rather are looking for a fight. Sorry, you'll have to find it elsewhere... I'm here for fun and to exchange ideas about pool.
I said it before ...
For the overall sport, that the semi-pro level needs
better definition and development across the country.
Thousands of semi-pros in every city across the country,
whether working full time or not, devote their time and
energies to Pool, many counting on the money they make
from Pool in tournaments, gambling, and leagues as part
of their 'normal' income, plus they are 'lifers' in the sport.
Not only does the pro ranks need lifted up, but the semi-pro
level needs identified and lifted up as well. These semi-pros
are like a Double AA or Triple AAA baseball team that is right
there in YOUR hometown.
As far as single 40-ish type women for Pool. I consider it a little
along the lines of women wanting to get into the boardroom.
With all the women only leagues starting up, it is a good way
for women to have fun, they don't have to sling a 15 lb. bowling
ball, they can have team spirit and comaraderie, they can gain
a sense of accomplishment that maybe they don't have in other
parts of their life, and they can use the lessons learned in Pool
to apply to other parts of their life. The logic and analyzation
methods and techniques you learn from Pool can be quite useful
in other parts of your life. Plus, if they are single, they just might
get to meet a good cute older poolplaying man with a cute butt
that they can hit it off with (phone number is ....-.... lol).
For the overall sport, that the semi-pro level needs
better definition and development across the country.
Thousands of semi-pros in every city across the country,
whether working full time or not, devote their time and
energies to Pool, many counting on the money they make
from Pool in tournaments, gambling, and leagues as part
of their 'normal' income, plus they are 'lifers' in the sport.
Not only does the pro ranks need lifted up, but the semi-pro
level needs identified and lifted up as well. These semi-pros
are like a Double AA or Triple AAA baseball team that is right
there in YOUR hometown.
As far as single 40-ish type women for Pool. I consider it a little
along the lines of women wanting to get into the boardroom.
With all the women only leagues starting up, it is a good way
for women to have fun, they don't have to sling a 15 lb. bowling
ball, they can have team spirit and comaraderie, they can gain
a sense of accomplishment that maybe they don't have in other
parts of their life, and they can use the lessons learned in Pool
to apply to other parts of their life. The logic and analyzation
methods and techniques you learn from Pool can be quite useful
in other parts of your life. Plus, if they are single, they just might
get to meet a good cute older poolplaying man with a cute butt
that they can hit it off with (phone number is ....-.... lol).
dooziexx said:
You mention one thing that has always made me wonder. I have heard many times that even though the APA system is nationally the same that there are
some factors placed in for each individual area. Such as in an area that does not have top players the system would raise the higher SLs to become actually a little overrated. The opposite would be true for an area that had several top players. There 5-6s would actually play 7SL speed.
I am not sure of this but have noticed a couple oddities with a player or two
that our leagues has playing in two different LO areas.
We went to Vegas this past year. I hope to go again but its tough. Our team did it the correct way and we competed. There was no sandbagging by our team. Actually I was quite surprised to have only faced one team in Vegas that appeared to have sandbaggers. We won 3 matches and lost 2 with
our last lost a tough loss. I am our SL7 and I lost the match giving the other team 3 for the win. I should have won. My opponnet was not under rated. I just lost plain and simple. I had a good time and would like to do it again.
BTW-- I think Aurora is near Chicago. I played in the thre man event and out team finished 5th (2nd year in a row
) and we lost to a team fromChicago. Ritchie Idrovo, Ike Runnels, and Jeff Sargent. Tough threesome.
I lost to RI. He broke and ran the first 4 racks of 8 ball on me. I got the last one and a few in the 9 ball but he won 7-4. He played really well.
frankncali said:You mention one thing that has always made me wonder. I have heard many times that even though the APA system is nationally the same that there are
some factors placed in for each individual area. Such as in an area that does not have top players the system would raise the higher SLs to become actually a little overrated. The opposite would be true for an area that had several top players. There 5-6s would actually play 7SL speed.
I am not sure of this but have noticed a couple oddities with a player or two
that our leagues has playing in two different LO areas.
We went to Vegas this past year. I hope to go again but its tough. Our team did it the correct way and we competed. There was no sandbagging by our team. Actually I was quite surprised to have only faced one team in Vegas that appeared to have sandbaggers. We won 3 matches and lost 2 with
our last lost a tough loss. I am our SL7 and I lost the match giving the other team 3 for the win. I should have won. My opponnet was not under rated. I just lost plain and simple. I had a good time and would like to do it again.
BTW-- I think Aurora is near Chicago. I played in the thre man event and out team finished 5th (2nd year in a row
Chicago. Ritchie Idrovo, Ike Runnels, and Jeff Sargent. Tough threesome.
I lost to RI. He broke and ran the first 4 racks of 8 ball on me. I got the last one and a few in the 9 ball but he won 7-4. He played really well.
I dont think that there is a national apa system..just a national handicap system. I have a buddy that plays in 2 different APA leagues both operated by different league operators. In one league, he is a 5... In the other, his is a 3.. Now to me thats a crock of $hit...
I know of Jeff and Ike but not personally. All 3 are very good players.. Tops in the Chicagoland area.. Ike plays in the US Open and derby city events.. There is no comparison between me and them even though all of us are 7s. They are waaay on the other end of the spectrum. They should be 15s if there is such a thing..
dooziexx said:
All three play real strong. I knew of Ike and Jeff before the event and my LO told me about Ritchie. He was a former singles champ.
A agree about the APA not having a national system. We have a couple guys here that are in two different areas with different SLs in each.
IMO a SL is a SL and should be the same averages across the nation.
Nit said:
Hey, nice room ... you related to Teacherman ?
I am not 'joe average american citizen' , I am Canadian (hey, that's catchy, it would make a good beer commercial).
Here there might be more participation in bowling leagues than pool leagues, but not a significant difference (my opinion, no real data). Just out of curiosity most of these bowlers do not have holes in their balls (a little 5 pin vs 10 pin joke, but I digress). You see lots of golfers in the summer, and almost as many curlers in the winter. My point is that there are differences in the games people play, and this must be recognized (ie don't assume that the scene in St.L. is indicative of the world, it is not).
Now, why do bar leagues exist at all ? Well, they do promote the leagues around here. The VNEA leagues in Alberta and Saskaktchewan are run by an outfit called Southern Music (out of Calgary). Their business is in renting out entertainment items to bars and restaurants. The name I believe comes from their original products, juke boxes. They and the bars attempt to make money from having a Valley pool table in the joint. To help this for-profit situation Southern Music promotes VNEA league play, it's good for their business and good for the bars business. Is it good for 'pool' ? I'm not sure they care, nor do the have any vested interest in 'pool'. If they were a publicly traded company I cannot see their shareholders caring about 'pool' over profits. In general I believe that some good comes from bar leagues, it is often times an introduction to someone who becomes more serious about the game. Of course for most it is just a form of recreation, they have no desire to try to make their living from the game nor to study the game to any degree.
And on the other side, by this same profit-motivated argument I could see how a pool room owner would want to make more money by taking bar-league participants and having them come to the pool hall instead. To that end they will promote their leagues and try to differentiate themselves from bar leagues.
I agree that the quality of pool as a game/sport is better in a pool hall compared to a bar-room. It has a lot to do with the demographics of the players IMO. If there were no bar-leagues then a significant portion of that demographic would quit playing leagues rather than go play at a pool hall, it's not what interests them. Are these people bad for pool ? Na, they're just annoying to some (and fish to others). The people who are more serious about the game of pool will gravitate to the pool halls. These are the types of people who do things like become members of AZBilliards, well the computer types might ... a computer-type casual bar-league player is not likely to be a member here, they do not take it seriously enough.
In a nutshell, these leagues are motivated by profits. Might that be your underlying concern as well NIT ?
Dave
PS, the answer to an earlier question like 'what game is as accessible as pool' might be shuffleboard. There are many bars in the Canadian prairies where the shuffleboard table is busier than the pool table. The quality of play and the, um, 'incentives' would cover a similar range compared to bar pool as well. I wonder when some savy promoter will create a million dollar professional shuffleboard tour ?
I know
That when I was playing in VNEA league, our league
operator knew all the best players playing in his league,
and established a minimum handicap for them, so that
it would cut out part of the sandbagging. For example,
A player could be a 9 or above, but never drop below
9 no matter how he played because his true skill level
was known by the league operator.
That when I was playing in VNEA league, our league
operator knew all the best players playing in his league,
and established a minimum handicap for them, so that
it would cut out part of the sandbagging. For example,
A player could be a 9 or above, but never drop below
9 no matter how he played because his true skill level
was known by the league operator.
Nit said:
I take offense to take blanket statement. I play in a single bar VNEA leauge. I work hard 12 hours a day, and like to play afterwards. Playing in the bar leauge enables me to One play pool, and two blow off some steam.
By saying, that I am part of the problem is not quite right. I play an honest game, no sandbagging, our entire leauge is that way. We promote integrity in the players, encourge new ones not to just be a banger, but try to teach them the finer aspects of the sport.
DaveK said:
Nothing wrong with a profit is there? Every business has to profit or it will fail. ALL businessmen have to make all efforts possible to turn a profit. No exceptions. So, yes, I like profit as does your bar league operator.
So....let us both fight for our profit. To use it as a reason for my statement about billiard league v bar league is not relevant. Since a profit is a given for all businesses all the time.
Assuming the goal is what is good for the sport, now look at what I said and with rational consideration, you have to conclude that the billiard rooms should be the leader in their communities for their sport.
We are not at this time. Reasons are numerous. What's worse is we have the power to change it almost immediately. And we haven't. We'll see how new ideas develop over the next few months.
YES,I WOULD PROBABLY AGREE LEAGUES ARE LOSING PLAYERS BECAUSE OF INADEQUATE HANDICAPS.ME AND ZIMS RACK RECENTLY STARTED AN EIGHT BALL BAR LEAGUE.OUR HANDICAP SYSTEM IS SIMPLE, 4 MAN TEAMS,YOU PLAY EVERYONE ONCE.BALLS OVER GAMES IS YOUR AVERAGE.TEAM TOTALS MINUS EACH OTHER FOR TOTAL BALL HANDICAP.TOTAL BALLS FOR THE SEASON IS WHAT THE STANDINGS GO BY.WITH NO PLAYOFFS.ROSTERS ARE FROZEN HALFWAY THROUGH THE SEASON,SO YOU CAN NOT BRING A NEW PLAYER IN LATE IN THE SEASON.WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO PROPLERLY ADJUST PLAYERS IF WE DEEM THEY ARE SANDBAGGING.IT SEEMS LIKE A FAIR SYSTEM TO ME.WE CURRENTLY HAVE 16 TEAMS PLAYING A ROUND ROBIN SCHEDULE.4 DOLLARS PER NIGHT PER PLAYER.WE ARE PAYING A 1000.00 FOR 1ST,AND EVERYONE RECIEVES MONEY BACK.WE ARE CURRENTLY LOOKING TO EXPAND IN THE ST.LOUIS,SOUTHERN ILLINOIS AREA.IF YOU NEED ANY INFO GO TO zimsrack.com.