What are or have been my playing aspirations? What insight do you have into this?
What is your evidence for this? What do you know about what I thought about improving my own abilities at pool?
Are pool schools worth the money?
- Thread starter cwilmeth
- Start date
What are or have been my playing aspirations? What insight do you have into this?
What is your evidence for this? What do you know about what I thought about improving my own abilities at pool?
thread Crap
This is why some many quality people with in the pool community do not bother with this site.
This is why some many quality people with in the pool community do not bother with this site.
The part I put in bold, in your quote above, shows that you haven't really read and understood what I've posted. I'll repeat it for you: Our "culture" has developed in a manner such that there are "instructors" for everything....all without any good evidence whatsoever whether that's actually an efficient method for learning--and CERTAINLY with only the weakest theory possible of HOW people should be "taught" (or WHAT should be taught, etc.).
There may be the HOPE that instructors can impart useful things to people.
There may be the INTENTION of instructors to provide valuable services to people.
....but there is practically no EVIDENCE that instructors carry out such tasks with significant success.
There IS substantial evidence, however, that people who do things very well have come to do those things WITHOUT much input from instructors, or sometimes IN SPITE OF those instructors.
I wonder, how can you say what you say with a straight face (I assume), without considering the fact that 99.999% of "good players" out there learned to be good players on their own--without any formal or "certified" instruction?
Do you have a factual documented study that gave you that information, or is it something you just made up as part of your own opinion?
I dare say most good players have had some form of instruction.
The results of instruction speak volumes as to their effectiveness.
I have a very thick folder of feedback forms from every student I have ever worked with. I would be happy to let anyone who was considering whether or not lessons were worth it to read through that file, and call any one of my former students to find out if it was worth it to them.
I doubt if you would be interested in that offer, since you have already made up your mind that you can do it better on your own. But the offer is there.
Steve
As always, such statements are general (and my original quote used the phrase "almost invariably").
Instead of trying to provide a full answer to your question (well, OK, I know NOTHING about your personal aspirations), let me ask a question: What proportion of your personal playing ability is due, in your opinion, to "professional instruction" that you have received?
I suspect it would be: "little or none."
Although I don't know anything about you personally, I DO know that MANY MANY MANY very good players have never received any formalized instruction at all.
I'll also add: there are surely many people who are FAT, who are STUPID, who are OLD, or who are POOR who play pool, really, exceptionally well....let's say...better than many/most instructors, lets say. To me that suggests (and I can elaborate more if necessary) that the main path to playing well is only the intention and dedication to get there (I'm not talking about the US open here; more about, "the best in town" etc). From that point I tend to infer that most instructors STEPPED FROM THE PATH of trying to play to their ultimate ability, and instead chose to concentrate on giving instruction instead. Am I really wrong about that, you think?
Furthermore, to put this (minor point, for me, in this discussion) issue more practically: In modern academic science, those who are best in research (i.e., is REAL SCIENCE) are almost exclusively involved in research....while those less suited to actually carrying out the process of science invariably end up...."teaching."
I actually know Randy quite well, and I know he has spent many hours learning from many different instructors.
The best instructors are usually also students. Because we understand that there is always something new to be learned.
Steve
This is why some many quality people with in the pool community do not bother with this site.
Notice the SAME one sending diff threads into chaos .
His name SHOULD be Get Me Out OF Here
Everyone please just say what you really want to say. You, sir, are a giant ass who doesn't know jack about the topic.
So is that a yes? Thought I was on Jerry springer for a minute.
Thanks everyone and Have a very Merry Christmas
Thanks everyone and Have a very Merry Christmas
I've gotten numerous responses in this vein. So I'll respond (only briefly, because it's not worth much time to address this issue).
NO. There are no requirements of ability for instructors. And the points I've tried to raise in this thread DOES NOT DEPEND ON THAT POSITION.
The important question is much more fundamental: What is the evidence that "instructors" can really supply something of value?
That is simply a question that is MUCH LESS WELL UNDERSTOOD than most people understand. Yes, for technical information, sure, there's a tremendous amount of information, and if someone can help you wade through all of it, because THEY HAVE ALREADY WADED THROUGH IT THEMSELVES, then they can easily be of help to someone learning.
But when it comes to HUMAN PERFORMANCE, IN FACT, all bets are off for most disciplines. For everything from music to pool, how well you play is based mostly on you personally, and the extent of your interest and desire to play well. Very little objective evidence has ever been compiled about HOW efficiently to instruct people to perform well.
....whereas there is always NO SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE who are willing to claim they can instruct people very efficiently.
Check out New Strokes thread. It is a blessing to the forum
OK, I'm just assuming here. RandyG posts his picture, and he hardly looks like he's in his twenties. I'm assuming he's been playing for a long time, and that even as a young player he played pretty well (or else why make a lifelong career from pool). Was "pool school" a big thing thirty years ago? Do you REALLY THINK RandyG couldn't hit the rail thirty years ago, and went to pool school back then, and then he could play well?
Sorry. I don't think so.
I think RandyG could probably play pretty well in his twenties and that he learned on his own just like everybody else.
Want to reconsider your answer?
I'd like to remind you that name-calling is against the forum rules.
Why not try to contribute something more useful than name-calling? If you don't like my ideas, try refuting them.
Sir, I will take that bet. Make it easy on yourself.
1. I thought I played really good.
2. Found Jerry Briesath and was completely wrong.
3. Emerged a few years later knowing what I was doing and playing much better.
4. Still study with Jerry annually.
5. I'm 68 year old and play better today than I did last week. Can't wait until tomorrow!
6. Thank God for great Pool Instructors!
While I'm at it. We don't anoint ourselves Instructors, we earn the right to teach. We work through the process to get it right. It's a long hard journey that only a few have chosen to accept. I excell in teaching, playing is my hobby.
And if you don't think that good players take lessons (in all sports) you are out of the loop. They pass through our Pool School doors every year.
Thanks for listening. Hope you can understand our BCA Instructors program some day....SPF=randyg
Check your private messages....randyg
Thanks for the answer. I agree with a lot of it, especially: "We don't anoint ourselves Instructors, we earn the right to teach. We work through the process to get it right."
I would add, though, that while it should be possible for an instructor to "earn the right to teach," it wouldn't be easy to DETERMINE whether an instructor HAD earned that right--except by the accomplishment of his students in comparison to what those students might have done WITHOUT his instruction. And that's a tough bill to fill.
OTOH, I don't think it's honest to not acknowledge:
1) Most (I'd say virtually all) strong players have NOT had pool instruction.
2) Performance instruction for the public at large is generally a NEW IDEA--which is the reason it's easy to say that most strong players never had professional lessons: they simply weren't widely available even twenty or thirty years ago.
3) There's no correlation anyone can point to between the increase in "pool instruction" and any widespread increase in pool playing ability (if there is one).
btw, throughout this entire discussion, although pool makes for an excellent example, IMO, it is NOT UNIQUE. Pick anything you would like to do, open up your yellow pages (or type it into google), and you will find PLENTY OF PEOPLE who would love to offer you their services to TEACH YOU HOW TO DO IT (often for a pretty piece of change).
Is their offer valuable? Who can say. I only know that such instruction is the "new thing," and I've read numerous articles over the years about the newness of the phenomenon and it's possible relation to the phenomenon of "people who have money that they don't know how to spend."
Maybe what you fellows really need is a Life Coach. The first lesson is free, afterall!
And your "cold hard facts" that back up that claim are...? Where is the evidence?