I'll cast my lot with the great Maddox
"For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three"
"For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three"
Are there any cuemakers who don't use ivory?
- Thread starter Cuebacca
- Start date
What are the different/feeling using Buckhorns [antlers], whether for ferrule, butt handle, joint, or butt cap. Or is it the same as Ivory?
What really is the message from the so-called "civilized" countries. Endangered or over-populated? Why is National Geographic Society showing elephant herd culling or the US recommending and granting approval, sale of ivory to Japan, to CITES?ratcues said:
I wonder what people who consider cattle as sacred think about this.ratcues said:Cows are not endangered. I'm in Nebraska. I can't throw a cue out of my window without hitting a cow.So you cannot compare elephants to cows.
And what earth spawned ingredient is this made out of? What impact will the depletion of such have on other living things?ratcues said:
Not even close to ivory.billiardshot said:
Antlers have marrows that need to be drilled out.
Once drilled out, they need to be aged/dried.
They move more than wood.
But once they stop moving, they are very stable.
I've put some in the trunk of my car during summer and none cracked.
Once stable, they should last forever. They don't crack like ivory.
They are not as weather/climate sensetive as ivory. Meaning if you have one as a ferrule, it shouldn't change playability by much due to weather.
Antles come from different species.
The imported ones of course cost more.
The collars aren't capped or sleeved with phenolic. They can be threaded as they thread nicely.
The ferrules can be capped or sleeved and come from differing species.
The buttcaps can be sleeved with phenolic if needed( if the marrow is larger than 7/8) . They don't affect the hit anyway.
The hit? I'm not gonna get on a debate but let me just say machining antlers you will find out FAST that the sukkers are harder than the hardest ebony or phenolic. They are so hard, they slow down my router when taking a 50 thousandths cut.
Best thing about them? No controversy. Not even from the bambyists.
(Even probably 100% of the ivory we see on cues now are old pre-ban sourced.)
After all most are from natural sheds.
Worst part? They stink and requires good labor and can be dangerous when cutting/turning b/c they are neither round nor flat.
Attachments
Yes, I believe that animals in the wild, in general, are capable of catching their own food. To say that an elephant will be eaten by "something" and therefore its okay to slaughter hundreds of thousands of them, is in my opinion, not a very good argument. When the elephants are slaughtered on that sort of scale, I think its safe to assume that the vast majority of them are going to rot, only to be eaten by bacteria, worms, and so on.
Elephants are culled even in their protected habitat.
The reason?
As cute as they are, elephants are environmentally destructive.
Guess what they like doing with their tusks?
Killing trees.
Elephants are culled even in their protected habitat.
The reason?
As cute as they are, elephants are environmentally destructive.
Guess what they like doing with their tusks?
Killing trees.
are going to rot, only to be eaten by bacteria, worms, and so on.
Still eaten! Maybe the worms regard themselves as the premiere life form so they don't really care who they have for dinner and if their society will approve of it. Their politicians probably tell them to eat and eat fast before they end up being squished by a shoe, hoof or beak.
Still eaten! Maybe the worms regard themselves as the premiere life form so they don't really care who they have for dinner and if their society will approve of it. Their politicians probably tell them to eat and eat fast before they end up being squished by a shoe, hoof or beak.
I think most, if not all, ivory used by US cue makers are pre ban ivory.
I have a little problem with custom about a cue with ivory. I was told that I should fill up some paperwork to obtain a permit so I can take my cue with ivory in and out of the US in the future. If I do not have the proper paperwork, my cue could be seized.
Going back to the topic, I think Samsara and Paul Fanelli both use very little ivory on their cues. With Paul Fanelli, I have never seen him doing any ivory inlays except hoppe rings and such. Anyone with picture of Pual Fanelli with loads of ivory inlays? I would be very interested to see them.
Thank you.
Richard
I have a little problem with custom about a cue with ivory. I was told that I should fill up some paperwork to obtain a permit so I can take my cue with ivory in and out of the US in the future. If I do not have the proper paperwork, my cue could be seized.
Going back to the topic, I think Samsara and Paul Fanelli both use very little ivory on their cues. With Paul Fanelli, I have never seen him doing any ivory inlays except hoppe rings and such. Anyone with picture of Pual Fanelli with loads of ivory inlays? I would be very interested to see them.
Thank you.
Richard
JoeyInCali said:
Thanks, Joey. If the experts, the scientists, have determined that it is better for the environment to cull some elephants, then who am I to argue with that? I am not an expert.
Unfortunately, I do not think you are saying that all or even most of the elephants that have had or will have their ivory harvested fall into this category. What I'm saying is that I still won't personally feel right about buying ivory at this point in time.
I would be curious to know just how much ivory is added to the current stockpiles due to elephants being culled for environmental considerations and just how badly those elephants are hurting the environment. (It couldn't be as badly as we humans hurt it.
) Anyway, these are questions that I don't have answers to yet, but I'm still wondering... do any other cue makers avoid ivory completely?
Cuebacca said:I hope I can state this in such as way that it does not rub anyone the wrong way...
This may sound like I'm trying to start a controversial thread, but that is not my motivation. I'm just curious if any cuemakers have made a conscious decision to be 100% ivory free due to their own personal opinions and beliefs.
To be completely honest about what made me think of this question, I might use this information later on when I upgrade to a nicer jump/break cue.
you can TELL any cuemaker not to use ivory, unless you prefer to approach only non-ivory using cuemakers as a matter of principle.
Probably next to none. New ivory isn't desired by makers. They just have not seasoned long enough.Cuebacca said:I would be curious to know just how much ivory is added to the current stockpiles due to elephants being culled for environmental considerations and just how badly those elephants are hurting the environment. (It couldn't be as badly as we humans hurt it.
Anyway, these are questions that I don't have answers to yet, but I'm still wondering... do any other cue makers avoid ivory completely?
Here's more in the culling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4392800.stm
Well, great thing is there are substitutes for ivory. Joints, collars and ferrules? Antlers/stags.
Inlays? Camel bone, elk or moose antler.
It's interesting to know that the first man-made plastic object was....
billiard balls.
[ And what earth spawned ingredient is this made out of? What impact will the depletion of such have on other living things?[/QUOTE]
Elforyn
Here is a paste from their site;
""Our latest product development is elforyn, an ivory substitute material. This development has been supported by the "Wood and Ivory" Technical College in Michelstadt and by the State College for Gold and Silversmiths in Hanau. elforyn contributes to wildlife conservation through its potential use as an ivory substitute.""
Elforyn
Here is a paste from their site;
""Our latest product development is elforyn, an ivory substitute material. This development has been supported by the "Wood and Ivory" Technical College in Michelstadt and by the State College for Gold and Silversmiths in Hanau. elforyn contributes to wildlife conservation through its potential use as an ivory substitute.""
ratcues said:
I still don't see an answer to my question that you quoted. I know that it's an ivory substitute but .....please see my question again. Is the ingredient of Elforyn animal based, plant based or mineral based? Will harvesting such ingredient have any negative effect on any life-form? Thanks for taking the time.
Luv2RunOut1
Banned
yeah all cues in the US are probably preban, but I got a cue off of ebay (plays fantastic by the way) from the philippines and they covered it with a latex paint to cover up the ivory from customs. Pain in butt to take that stuff off too.
Man.. all this talk about animals is making me hungry... 
But really, can we please find a use for cats, I would really appreciate someone using them for something other than house pets.
Personally, I think they would be a good substitue for clay pigeons.
JV
But really, can we please find a use for cats, I would really appreciate someone using them for something other than house pets.
Personally, I think they would be a good substitue for clay pigeons.
JV
Does this mean that the rabbits foot hanging from my case is unlucky 
The bunny huggers will hate to see my next cue with 100+ ivory points, stars, dots, rings, buttcap, joint, ferrules, etc...... (it will be at VF and in the next billiard encyclopedia).
Using Elforyn would be like eating a veggie burger........... give me red meat good and rare!
The bunny huggers will hate to see my next cue with 100+ ivory points, stars, dots, rings, buttcap, joint, ferrules, etc...... (it will be at VF and in the next billiard encyclopedia).
Using Elforyn would be like eating a veggie burger........... give me red meat good and rare!
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billiardshot said:
That's one I haven't figured out...why India banned the export of Stag material. Stag handles & scales on knifes was a popular use. You see, no deer were killed for this stag, it was a picking up of antlers that the deer shed annually....here in my part of the country it's rare to find shed antlers though. Porcupines & other rodents eat them rather quickly.
JoeyInCali said:
That's really cool, about the billiard balls.
Thanks for the link, Joey. Interesting stuff. It sounds like there's not complete agreement amongst the experts that the culling is necessary, but from reading the article it does sounds like it is necessary.
In any case, I still can't see myself buying ivory, even if the ivory is "pre-ban". Although I do try to follow the law, in my opinion, legal doesn't necessarily equate to right, nor illegal to wrong. Eventually, those pre-ban ivory stockpiles are going to be used up, and there will be demand for more.
(Edit: Fixed grammar typo.)
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